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TC Electronic introduces TC2290-DT Dynamic Delay Plug-In with Desktop Interface Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 19th April 2018
  #61
Here for the gear
 

Hey guys,

I appreciate every comment on my post, positive and negative!

TC Electronic is and has always been innovation driven. We will often try to look at technology in new ways, combining existing components, software or hardware, in ways nobody had imagined.
TC2290-DT is to a high degree such a product, and I do understand and appreciate people asking questions to the concept.
I like the debate. And, as someone said, as a company we need this debate - and we do listen.
We need innovation, otherwise we'll just end up doing what everybody else does, and that's no fun :-)


Let me answer a couple of questions:
Which parameters do you find on the plug-in UI and why are they not on the hardware?
Those of you who know the original 1985 TC2290 might be familiar with the so called SPEC keys, the special keys.

The idea was that not all parameters were accessible directly from buttons on the front panel; some settings were recallable only using more or less secret codes.
Those codes were public in the sense that they were published in the manual, but since nobody read manuals, in practice they were known as the "secret codes".
So, the really cool sound guys used the secret codes as secret tricks to optimize various settings of the TC2290.
An example of a secret parameter could be adjusting the thresholds that trigger the modulation on PAN or DELAY TIME.

We thought this was pretty cool (yes, we ARE nerds), so we implemented the same feature in the new desktop version.
So, on the hardware, you find a key called SPEC, which gives access to those secret parameters.

Now, as I said before, we do know that nobody read manuals, so we thought we'd expose the secret parameters in a more accessible way. And since we wanted to keep the footprint of the hardware relatively small, we decided to put those secret parameters on the plug-in UI, rather than placing them on the hardware, making the footprint bigger. And that's why you'll find the secret, or secondary, parameters on the plug-in UI and not on the hardware.

By the way, we added a couple of additional secret parameters not found on the original TC2290. These are mainly implemented to support the parameters that you would expect from a delay plug-in: DAW tempo sync and the settings associated.


If you are able to tweak it in that two weeks period without TC hardware, and not tweak it after two weeks pass. Does that mean that within these two weeks you can actually tweak plugin and plugin indeed have all controls on the UI?

Since the concept is about physical control, you find the main controls only on the hardware. In the two weeks period, you can:
Use automation
Do preset changes
Adjust the parameters placed on the UI of the plug-in
Attach an external MIDI controller and control all parameters (DAW dependend)
Use the DAWs generic controls for all parameters (DAW dependend)



Best Regards
Thomas
Old 19th April 2018
  #62
Lives for gear
 
elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiffybox View Post
My Eventide H9 is a dedicated controller of sorts, isn't it? And you'd have to pry it from my calloused hands. I don't mind the controller aspect at all. Yes, it'll take up real estate, but please, don't we slutz love any reason to expand the gear set up? Another studio desk? Sigh, FINE. Yes it'll take up precious USB jacks. As will every other USB device you purchase in the future. Another USB hub? FINE...now I have more slots to fill. Not getting the level of emotions on display here against the TC2290, but hey it's your desktop and your USB plug. Will I buy it? Not sure. It's pricey, but the demos are all exquisite. I'm curious to play with it, can't really be mad at TC until I do, and even then I don't think this warrants actual anger. Until then, though, hello my sweet, sweet H9...
Your H9 (I have one) is actually the opposite of that: it contains the processing and is controlled by another source (iPad, phone, computer). This concept makes perfect sense.
Old 19th April 2018
  #63
Gear Addict
 
digitalson's Avatar
 

Wow, always loved the unit and it sounds spot on,and please make a 1210 plug-in as well!!!!. and I love how the controller is not too big
Old 19th April 2018
  #64
Here for the gear
 

As a guitar player, I would love to have access to this sought after delay in my DAW. I was very impressed with your native reverb plug,so I'm thinking the quality is there. As others have already said ,though,I have no need for a physical controller. The term "hardware" has certain connotations in the sound industry and calling your physical controller "hardware" is a little misleading to some maybe, as this is a purely software plug(which is fantastic).Sell the controller with the plug,but make its use optional.Some people may like the eye candy or may genuinely want to use it.Maybe it could control other plugs too or something. As it is,I see no reason why a good GUI couldn't do the exact same thing. I'm very disappointed with the decision to make its use compulsory. It's wrong for like twenty reasons. What if I accidentally break it? and so on.
Old 19th April 2018
  #65
Lives for gear
 
Wiggy Neve Slut's Avatar
 

Yup 1210 would be most welcome!
Old 20th April 2018
  #66
Lives for gear
 
kreeper_6's Avatar
 

LOL.

Just release a full plugin on UAD.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #67
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wagon View Post
Sell the controller with the plug,but make its use optional.Some people may like the eye candy or may genuinely want to use it. I'm very disappointed with the decision to make its use compulsory. It's wrong for like twenty reasons. What if I accidentally break it? and so on.
I agree with this. The use of the controller should be optional and the plugin should be fully functional without the controller. People who want to use the controller will. But what if it packs up in 10 years or so and you guys are no longer making these specific controllers?

$350 sounded like a brilliant deal when this was announced.. but all this limitation that’s come to light and not to mention the fact that the plugin itself gets even MORE limited after x number of days without the controller plugged in makes me think otherwise.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #68
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
I’d love for tc to make the presets in this new plugin avail to those of us who have the hardware!
Old 23rd April 2018
  #69
Lives for gear
This is interesting. The controller is an awesome idea and looks like fun. I'd be on board if there will be a demo available. I have no experience with this delay so to make a blind purchase which will inevitably lose value immediately on the second hand market is a deterrent. The demos sound great though.
Old 24th April 2018
  #70
F5D
Lives for gear
 
F5D's Avatar
 

This looks cool. It is good to see that the controller is quite compact. I like touching real buttons instead of a plugin window. Of course desk space is limited, but if somebody values this delay so much that it is the go-to delay to be used in almost every project, I can see no problems having the controller. It looks (and sounds) so great, it invites you to use it. It is just that these days people have so many other plugins, are they willing to give the TC so much room in their projects? In any case, I like the idea very much. I know I want one, but I am not sure yet whether I will get one.
Old 25th April 2018
  #71
Gear Nut
 

Haters gonna hate.

Screw that, this looks awesome. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. You’ve gotten along this far without it.
Old 25th April 2018
  #72
So tempting... if this continues, with the HW controller for plugins, I soon need a USB hub with 30 ports or more :D

Will it complement EchoBoy, my favorite go-to delay, or just overkill. I wonder how the sound is. A demo is not yet available right?
Old 25th April 2018
  #73
@[email protected]:

How long is the USB-cable?

These were my other questions, until I saw the manual:
How many licenses are included? I hope two, so I can keep working on the projects on my home computer.
Will the plugin work without the HW? E.g. when you're mobile, or transfer the session to another computer?
Or is it true, that the plugin is tied to the HW, thus only 1 license?


Answer is on page 5 & 6.
Quote:
Demo Mode
If the plug-in is installed without a hardware unit connected, the plug-in will
default to demo mode. In this state, sound is processed but no controls
are available. Once a hardware unit is connected, all controls become available. If the hardware unit is disconnected, automation and preset recall will still be
available for 2 weeks, after which the plug-in goes into demo mode.
This is should be improved IMHO. The preset recall, automation and sound should remain fully functional without time restriction. Or at least for a longer time period, e.g. 30 days. This can be even a big issue, when the controller goes bad or breaks, or stolen, etc. The risk is even higher, when you are mobile. I don't want to imagine that.


Best value for me would be: Plugin can be fully used without controller, and two licenses are included. The controller should be just the dot on the i. Consider a plugin-only version for less money (=more sales). On top, for the controller nerds, the 350$ package.
Old 25th April 2018
  #74
Gear Nut
 

I have the feeling that TC doesn't want to be tied into a existing copy protection like iLok or eLicenser (with all the hassles it comes with) and want to keep everything under their own control. And that's why you'll get this weird situation under what circumstances it will work and when it won't. To them the remote control must be the selling argument I guess, not the plugin itself.
Old 25th April 2018
  #75
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Soundtoys is great... people will disagree, but, you can get the 2290 vibe with the Soundtoys bundle...

Think about how delay/echo is generally used... very subtle effect. I mean if you got time machined to 1991 and had to be Lukather’s tech, then yah, only the 2290 would do...

I say this as the owner of a 2290 and seemingly every delay/echo plugin.

The appeal of a 2290 plugin is the general convenience of not having to deal with outboard. And not having to use two physical units for stereo program. That’s assuming that the algos are the same as the outboard.
Old 25th April 2018
  #76
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hey guys,

I appreciate every comment on my post, positive and negative!

TC Electronic is and has always been innovation driven. We will often try to look at technology in new ways, combining existing components, software or hardware, in ways nobody had imagined.
TC2290-DT is to a high degree such a product, and I do understand and appreciate people asking questions to the concept.
I like the debate. And, as someone said, as a company we need this debate - and we do listen.
We need innovation, otherwise we'll just end up doing what everybody else does, and that's no fun :-)


Let me answer a couple of questions:
Which parameters do you find on the plug-in UI and why are they not on the hardware?
Those of you who know the original 1985 TC2290 might be familiar with the so called SPEC keys, the special keys.

The idea was that not all parameters were accessible directly from buttons on the front panel; some settings were recallable only using more or less secret codes.
Those codes were public in the sense that they were published in the manual, but since nobody read manuals, in practice they were known as the "secret codes".
So, the really cool sound guys used the secret codes as secret tricks to optimize various settings of the TC2290.
An example of a secret parameter could be adjusting the thresholds that trigger the modulation on PAN or DELAY TIME.

We thought this was pretty cool (yes, we ARE nerds), so we implemented the same feature in the new desktop version.
So, on the hardware, you find a key called SPEC, which gives access to those secret parameters.

Now, as I said before, we do know that nobody read manuals, so we thought we'd expose the secret parameters in a more accessible way. And since we wanted to keep the footprint of the hardware relatively small, we decided to put those secret parameters on the plug-in UI, rather than placing them on the hardware, making the footprint bigger. And that's why you'll find the secret, or secondary, parameters on the plug-in UI and not on the hardware.

By the way, we added a couple of additional secret parameters not found on the original TC2290. These are mainly implemented to support the parameters that you would expect from a delay plug-in: DAW tempo sync and the settings associated.


If you are able to tweak it in that two weeks period without TC hardware, and not tweak it after two weeks pass. Does that mean that within these two weeks you can actually tweak plugin and plugin indeed have all controls on the UI?

Since the concept is about physical control, you find the main controls only on the hardware. In the two weeks period, you can:
Use automation
Do preset changes
Adjust the parameters placed on the UI of the plug-in
Attach an external MIDI controller and control all parameters (DAW dependend)
Use the DAWs generic controls for all parameters (DAW dependend)



Best Regards
Thomas
I guess you see this as some kind of DRM protection. However if this is a good product it will be cracked anyway. And then you have the problem that the cracked version is better than the original one. And I have to say this is a really stupid idea. OK, piracy is a big problem and might need to do something, I dont mind having my VSS3 on a ilok, is quite convenient to switch between different computers. This will be a pain in the ass for your customers but not for the warez.
Old 25th April 2018
  #77
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
We need a standard. Like MIDI.

If I had a controller for every FX, EQ and compressor in my plugin collection I'd need a desktop the size of a tennis court!

Sure it would be cute to have a mini 244, 480L, AMS RX16 controller, but as the processing is all digital inside your PC
then a generic controller with plugins instantly mapping to an excepted standard surely must be the way forward.

Then manufactures could simply compete to make the best one in different price brackets etc etc.

Diverging propriety units is leading is back to the large inefficient workflows of the past.
Obviously the company's behind MIDI is not interested in such a standard. And I dont think it is a good way to build new standards upon MIDI. But who can stand behind the standard in such a way that the big vendors have to adopt? AES,IEEE,IETF,ISO,ANSI,EU, UN? And guess that it does not exist since no one will finance it. (Sorry for hijacking the thread)
Old 25th April 2018
  #78
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
I’d pay 300 bucks for a plugin that controlled my outboard 2290 through midi...
Old 25th April 2018
  #79
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
I’d pay 300 bucks for a plugin that controlled my outboard 2290 through midi...
That should be actually a basic function of the new controller
Old 27th April 2018
  #80
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
Obviously the company's behind MIDI is not interested in such a standard. And I dont think it is a good way to build new standards upon MIDI. But who can stand behind the standard in such a way that the big vendors have to adopt? AES,IEEE,IETF,ISO,ANSI,EU, UN? And guess that it does not exist since no one will finance it. (Sorry for hijacking the thread)
I never said build it on MIDI. (re-read my post)

I said "like" we had MIDI (not MIDI itself - already EuCon surpasses MIDI) but I do feel we need a standard for a control protocol that allows plugin manufactures to map controls to a known hardware standard.

Sure this TC box is great - but I have dozens and dozens of great plugins - what if they all had controllers!
As I said I'll need a desktop the size of a tennis court to fit them all on.

Softube are heading in the right direction but only if there can be an agreement between developers.
Old 27th April 2018
  #81
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I never said build it on MIDI. (re-read my post)

I said "like" we had MIDI (not MIDI itself - already EuCon surpasses MIDI) but I do feel we need a standard for a control protocol that allows plugin manufactures to map controls to a known hardware standard.

Sure this TC box is great - but I have dozens and dozens of great plugins - what if they all had controllers!
As I said I'll need a desktop the size of a tennis court to fit them all on.

Softube are heading in the right direction but only if there can be an agreement between developers.
What so great about that? It is not very dynamic since all the knobs are fixed. I think Mackie C4 is a lot better direction.
Old 27th April 2018
  #82
Lives for gear
 
elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehightenor View Post
I do feel we need a standard for a control protocol that allows plugin manufactures to map controls to a known hardware standard.
A modern alternative to MIDI, which is adequate for some uses but too archaic for others, would be good. Companies tend to use their own proprietary protocols for software/hardware communication, but I agree that some standardization is necessary to allow a wider range of compatibility between products.
Old 27th April 2018
  #83
Love the concept of Plugins w/ Hardware controllers.

Obviously loved by Guitarist but can anyone post some links of the delay being used on anything else? (Vocals/Synths)...or was this a tool used strictly for the purpose of Guitars where it clearly shines on?.... just curious......Thanks!
Old 27th April 2018
  #84
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace View Post
What so great about that? It is not very dynamic since all the knobs are fixed. I think Mackie C4 is a lot better direction.
No I imho I think your wrong about the C4.

I think we need something that has a pre determined set of controls that is fixed and then the plugin developers maps to the hardware. I want predictability as I switch between my plugins.

So for example a controller should have a compressor section with the established parameters most compressors have and then the plugin developer maps to those controllers - the same for an EQ section and a gate section etc.

In this respect I think Softube are heading in the right direction (except their protocol is propriety)

The generic nature of the C4 is to mind exactly what is wrong with a generic controller there is nothing about it that resembles the hardware it is trying to map too and therefore the location of any parameter becomes arbitrary and at the whim of the plugin developer - what was a threshold knob on one compressor plugin can become a ratio knob on the next plugin.

I'm surprised UA haven't jumped on this with a serious controller for their now very large plugin collection - at this point they've started mapping some of their plugins to the Softube Control 1.
Old 28th April 2018
  #85
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah421 View Post
Love the concept of Plugins w/ Hardware controllers.

Obviously loved by Guitarist but can anyone post some links of the delay being used on anything else? (Vocals/Synths)...or was this a tool used strictly for the purpose of Guitars where it clearly shines on?.... just curious......Thanks!

It’s golden box level... great on vox.

Again... I own one and I use it (unless I’m being lazy) often... BUT... with all the great plugins out there nowadays I don’t know that you can’t get there with stuff you already have... and you’ll probably dial up settings quite a bit faster with existing plugins compared to the outboard 2290.

Soundtoys... d16... the Waves hdelay... Valhalla...Speaking of d16, its GUI even looks like the tc.

A plugin version from tc is a great way for them to be “relevant” and mine their reputation of old... this is the exact sort of gear that can really shine in plugin form... assuming that the algos are 1:1. This and the eventide harmonized plug-in and you can build the new world version of an 80s rock god rig in the box

I think it’s cool that the dude who runs the tc2290 website cooked up presets for this... but, dang, he never put settings on his site.

As cool as the box is, I have 4 or 5 presets that I use that my buddy’s gtr tech cribbed from rock gods of years past...
Old 29th April 2018
  #86
I hate any plugins that has to work when their hardware is present... and its pretty much always been a fail product/platform anyway... the only 2 exceptions are access virus and uad.... I would very much prefer uad plugins without need of dsp cards.... access virus is just great tho

Last edited by fuzulu; 30th April 2018 at 11:36 AM..
Old 30th April 2018
  #87
Gear Maniac
 

When I saw the picture I thought it was a standalone 2290 hardware clone and I was running to get my credit card. Then I found out that it was a plug-in controller and saw the price, I thought "hmm that’s cool, I might still buy it”. THEN I find out that you can’t control the damn plugin without the controller! Forget it....
Old 1st May 2018
  #88
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crims View Post
When I saw the picture I thought it was a standalone 2290 hardware clone and I was running to get my credit card. Then I found out that it was a plug-in controller and saw the price, I thought "hmm that’s cool, I might still buy it”. THEN I find out that you can’t control the damn plugin without the controller! Forget it....
Based on VSS3; their GUI programming skills are not that great, so this is maybe the best solution after all.
Old 1st May 2018
  #89
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
The more I think about it, the worse I think this is... just another thing in the chain that can break or cause issues, etc. besides, one of the whole points of plugins and software is to escape from boxes...

I’d honestly prefer ilok or their own little usb dongle... because, that’s all this really is... cp. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody ever “ride” this particular piece of outboard... it’s too complicated to program in the middle of a performance and it’s a friggin delay. A properly thought out GUI would really shine for this emu as the programming of this unit is legendarily awkward.

So the injection of a hardware controller into a software solution isn’t about anything other than a cup dongle... and in this case, a huge dongle at that.

I just hope that the thing is a 1:1 emu of the outboard... if it is, I’d probably spring for it and sell my real unit (and the giant tc pedalboard that goes with it)!
Old 1st May 2018
  #90
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
The more I think about it, the worse I think this is... just another thing in the chain that can break or cause issues, etc. besides, one of the whole points of plugins and software is to escape from boxes...

I’d honestly prefer ilok or their own little usb dongle... because, that’s all this really is... cp. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody ever “ride” this particular piece of outboard... it’s too complicated to program in the middle of a performance and it’s a friggin delay. A properly thought out GUI would really shine for this emu as the programming of this unit is legendarily awkward.

So the injection of a hardware controller into a software solution isn’t about anything other than a cup dongle... and in this case, a huge dongle at that.

I just hope that the thing is a 1:1 emu of the outboard... if it is, I’d probably spring for it and sell my real unit (and the giant tc pedalboard that goes with it)!
This isnt a 1:1. If you watch the actual 2290 DT promo video, they state (somewhere around the 1:50 min mark) that some of the magic of the modulation circuit happens in the microcontroller which they dont have the original code for anymore. So it isnt a 100% 1:1
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