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Airwindows Dark: Mac/Windows/Linux AU/VST
Old 2 weeks ago
  #31
Lives for gear
 
candyflip's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
You can do either. Going to 24 bit has the advantage that you're definitely dithering (or wordlength reducing, with Dark or NJAD or something). If you go to 32 bit from the output of any Airwindows plugin, it's dithering to the 32 bit output: if you go to 32 bit from an untouched 24 bit source file that you recorded directly, nothing more is happening to the audio as that will fit neatly into the 32 bit: if you go to 32 bit while also using other plugins, gain changes etc. that aren't by me, you can be adding a quantization on (effectively) only the very loudest peaks of the waveform, that's roughly equivalent to 25 bit fixed point. Everything quieter than the very loudest 6 dB is progressively higher res, until the reverb tails are basically infinite fidelity. Floating point is funny that way, only the loudest parts degrade, and at that it's way less than 16 bit fixed (and also less than 24 bit undithered)

I'd bet money nobody will hear those differences every time. Maybe just occasionally someone with great ears will be like 'hmm' and then it's gone again. I don't mind working at those levels as I'm picky, but never think that this stuff is Big Differences, 16 bit stuff is closer to Big (vibe and atmosphere) Differences, and anything at 24 OR 32 bit is at least hundreds of times subtler than that.

Sweat it, but don't fret it. This is mostly about embracing certain kinds of tone that didn't used to be common in digital audio. It's fun and satisfying, but it isn't important. Use whatever workflow makes you feel more inspired, and your mood will have a much greater effect on the music than the dither will
Thank you! I may as well stay at 24fixed and save some storage space in that case, making use of TapeDither to bounce each time my cpu maxes out

Last edited by candyflip; 2 weeks ago at 05:26 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Beatworld's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
Dark.zip(339k)

Since it's only been two weeks, here's an update-in-place! As in, this is what the plugin should have been.

Dark Redux is Dark, exactly as before, BUT now it has one added control. DeRez! Just like in the DeRez plugin, it zooms seamlessly down to 1 (or 0) bits. It's continuous, not discrete: you can do one and a half bits or whatever, play it by ear. Except that unlike the DeRez plugin, it's still Dark… so you can hear more clearly what the new wordlength reducer is doing.

It defaults to 0, which is exactly as it was before. Both the 24 and 16 bit settings derez, which means you can take it to 0 bit (silence) with 16 bit, switch to 24 bit, and the result is you're listening to 8 bit. (if you need really specific behavior, you can use BitShiftGain before and after the plugin to get exact bit values).

This makes it possible to do old school sampling effects, dark bitcrushed sounds. It also demonstrates that the Dark algorithm is a bit special, because you have to really trash the wordlength to deteriorate the tone much. It's more like a slightly noisier, slightly funkier, slightly gated grunge tone, even though the output is literally just bitcrushing. There isn't even any smoothing applied to get the 'dark' tonality, it's literally all a wordlength reducer, and with DeRez at 0 it's exactly the original Dark plugin.

If there's a problem or if you need to not see a control marked 'DeRez', my updates-in-place always leave the original file there, in this case renamed to DarkOriginal.zip(338k). They have the same ID and DAWs ought to be able to handle swapping the new one in, even on existing projects that use Dark, it's just to make sure people can get back the original release if they ever need to.

This work is supported by Patreon. I hope you like it.
The names of the DarkOriginal and new Dark files are the same.
for example, for Logic both AU files are called Dark.component

Is that correct, is the new version meant to be called Dark Redux ???

Or do we need to rename one of them if we want to have both in the component's Folder ? ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #33
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatworld View Post
The names of the DarkOriginal and new Dark files are the same.
for example, for Logic both AU files are called Dark.component

Is that correct, is the new version meant to be called Dark Redux ???

Or do we need to rename one of them if we want to have both in the component's Folder ? ?
Dark (Redux) is Dark; it's a replacement, as also happened recently with Tape when it got a head bump control added.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #34
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Yes. An update in place means it should have been that way in the first place and counts as a bugfix, and you can't keep both in the plugins folder. The 'original' download is kept on my website and is downloadable in case anyone somehow has a problem, even though it produces this sort of problem (people wanting to use both): it's more important to me to let you be able to get any version of any plugin, and if I really need to 'replace' something in this way I'll leave the old version available.

If I figured it was worth a new version there'd be a number at the end of it and you'd be able to have both versions side by side in your DAW, but 'update in place' means it's keeping the same name and the same ID. It probably also means it's been at most a couple weeks since the original plugin: that's the case here. If I'd thought to include 'DeRez' from the start, you'd never have seen a version without it.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #35
Lives for gear
 
Beatworld's Avatar
After some tests to convince me the default DeRez setting of 0 is the same as the original Dark, I've just replaced the original with the new.
Dark is impressive Chris, some of your best work IMHO.
Thanks.

cheers
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatworld View Post
After some tests to convince me the default DeRez setting of 0 is the same as the original Dark, I've just replaced the original with the new.
Dark is impressive Chris, some of your best work IMHO.
Thanks.

cheers
The really interesting thing will be when we can shoot it out next to NJAD and Beam. I'm looking to find out which technique ought to live in Monitoring. Dark's behavior is pretty easy to understand. Beam, on the other hand…
Old 1 week ago
  #37
Lives for gear
 

For my 'tastes' .... I'd be considering the one that sends the backdrop to -infinity.

Sounds emerging from the absolute silence of 'nothingness'.

I've a few notable recordings that exhibit that presentation quality. [for one: Boz Scaggs [Dig] 'Thanks To You' - Hi Rez].
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Beatworld's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
The really interesting thing will be when we can shoot it out next to NJAD and Beam. I'm looking to find out which technique ought to live in Monitoring. Dark's behavior is pretty easy to understand. Beam, on the other hand…
Until Dark, NJAD was my weapon of choice.
Dark has replaced that (although I have no interest in the ReDux option/Feature).
I confess to not really understanding Beam and would be reluctant to play around with the Focus control when I don't know what is happening..
I like the simplicity of doing nothing as per NJAD and Dark (without ReDux).
Old 1 week ago
  #39
Lives for gear
 

I feel like i am missing something.other than engaging the Derez both Beam and Dark do absolutely nothing to the audio itself?i thought perhaps my earbuds weren't picking it up(don't have the studio at the mo),so i rendered 3 mixes out with completely dry master,one with Beam and another mix with Dark..Dark cancels to beyond the noisefloor of 24bit and Beam cancels just a bit beyond 16bit.focus does nothing unless you engage the Derez.if it was changing the angles of waveforms then surely that would show up quite blatantly in the difference signal.i'm used to and even crave subtle but i am just gonna assume these things don't do anything anywhere near to what is being claimed
Old 1 week ago
  #40
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
I feel like i am missing something.other than engaging the Derez both Beam and Dark do absolutely nothing to the audio itself?i thought perhaps my earbuds weren't picking it up(don't have the studio at the mo),so i rendered 3 mixes out with completely dry master,one with Beam and another mix with Dark..Dark cancels to beyond the noisefloor of 24bit and Beam cancels just a bit beyond 16bit.focus does nothing unless you engage the Derez.if it was changing the angles of waveforms then surely that would show up quite blatantly in the difference signal.i'm used to and even crave subtle but i am just gonna assume these things don't do anything anywhere near to what is being claimed
You'll find the same thing with NJAD, and indeed regulation TPDF dither, especially at the default of 24 bit where most DAWs ought to operate. These are DITHERS, even the ones that aren't noise-based.

So they can only truncate up or down from where the hi-res signal is, and then only by an amount equal to the least significant bit of the output.

I've got noise gates and such don't worry about it. Dark is not supposed to do things beyond what dither does. It's just doing it in an extremely different way, and the 16 bit version may be consistently identifiable but the 24 bit version is about vibe and thoroughness and is meant for people with fancy expensive converters and monitoring and speakers. If that's not you, then you can just use TPDF or simply not worry about it for the time being
Old 4 days ago
  #41
Gear Maniac
Hi Chris!

I love the sound of DeRez inside Dark but it has actually rendered the plug-in useless since it no longer outputs 16/24 bits when DeRez is in use!

Lic. Ezequiel Morfi | TITANIO
Buenos Aires, Argentina.-
Old 4 days ago
  #42
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by morfi View Post
Hi Chris!

I love the sound of DeRez inside Dark but it has actually rendered the plug-in useless since it no longer outputs 16/24 bits when DeRez is in use!

Lic. Ezequiel Morfi | TITANIO
Buenos Aires, Argentina.-
Set DeRez to zero for the 16/24 bit output you can't have that and bitcrush at the same time, bitcrush is bitcrush. It'll go away when you set it to zero
Old 3 days ago
  #43
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
Set DeRez to zero for the 16/24 bit output you can't have that and bitcrush at the same time, bitcrush is bitcrush. It'll go away when you set it to zero
Yes I have! But that renders the (Redux) plug-in completely useless, can't you see? It's no longer a word-length reducer, quite the opposite! It actually outputs a 64-bit buss when DeRez is active.

So what's the advantage over the original Dark then? We use Dark when we want a word-length reducer, and we always have DeRez 2 to do the bit-crushing in the floating-point environment.

And just to make it clear, I mean to state all this as user feedback and in the most utter admiration and respect for your work, @ chrisj ! I don't need to stay that Airwindows is mind-blowing and astounding, because you know it
Old 3 days ago
  #44
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontcare View Post
I feel like i am missing something.other than engaging the Derez both Beam and Dark do absolutely nothing to the audio itself?i thought perhaps my earbuds weren't picking it up(don't have the studio at the mo),so i rendered 3 mixes out with completely dry master,one with Beam and another mix with Dark..Dark cancels to beyond the noisefloor of 24bit and Beam cancels just a bit beyond 16bit.focus does nothing unless you engage the Derez.if it was changing the angles of waveforms then surely that would show up quite blatantly in the difference signal.i'm used to and even crave subtle but i am just gonna assume these things don't do anything anywhere near to what is being claimed
I hear it in the highs mostly. almost like they are being gated but not really gated. The lows and lower mids seem to tighten up a bit and become more defined. If you havent tried them yet check out dither me timbers and dickers.
those two defiantly have a sound. I use a mix of those two on my buses not for dithering but what they do to the audio that none of my other plugs do and now dark has bean parked on the master. I feel between to three the audio has become less 2d.
Old 3 days ago
  #45
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by morfi View Post
Yes I have! But that renders the (Redux) plug-in completely useless, can't you see? It's no longer a word-length reducer, quite the opposite! It actually outputs a 64-bit buss when DeRez is active.

So what's the advantage over the original Dark then? We use Dark when we want a word-length reducer, and we always have DeRez 2 to do the bit-crushing in the floating-point environment.

And just to make it clear, I mean to state all this as user feedback and in the most utter admiration and respect for your work, @ chrisj ! I don't need to stay that Airwindows is mind-blowing and astounding, because you know it
When Dark is used without the de-rez it's simply a superb dither, to only be used at the the end of your final buss chain.

If you want to use it to bit-crush then this would have to be done with another instance of the plugin before the final buss chain.
Old 3 days ago
  #46
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaNoam View Post
When Dark is used without the de-rez it's simply a superb dither, to only be used at the the end of your final buss chain.

If you want to use it to bit-crush then this would have to be done with another instance of the plugin before the final buss chain.
Absolutely! So why the need for the "Redux" (updated) version for Dark that deprecates the original one (even though the installer is still there)? That's what I was wondering about and therefore decided to ask Chris.

I will for sure be using DeRez 2 somewhere in the processing chain and (original) Dark as my final dithering plug-in, but definitely not "DeRez'ing" inside Dark (Redux).

Lic. Ezequiel Morfi | TITANIO
Buenos Aires, Argentina.-
Old 2 days ago
  #47
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by morfi View Post
Absolutely! So why the need for the "Redux" (updated) version for Dark that deprecates the original one (even though the installer is still there)? That's what I was wondering about and therefore decided to ask Chris.
I'm happy for the update for two reasons:

1) It adds a second use case - If I want it as a dither, I don't touch DeRez, but if I want to use it as an effect then I can (with a separate dither at the end - maybe another instance of Dark).

2) It makes it easier to audition dithers - I can use the DeRez to accentuate what's going on, make my comparisons, and then turn off DeRez so I can use it as my dither
Old 2 days ago
  #48
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by morfi View Post
Absolutely! So why the need for the "Redux" (updated) version for Dark that deprecates the original one (even though the installer is still there)?
With derez set to 0, Dark "Redux" works identically to Dark. Same plugin with an extra control.

The de-rez control in Dark will affect the sound differently to how the plugin DeRez works because of the characteristics of the Dark algorithm; watch the Dark(Redux) video.
Old 2 days ago
  #49
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaNoam View Post
With derez set to 0, Dark "Redux" works identically to Dark. Same plugin with an extra control.

The de-rez control in Dark will affect the sound differently to how the plugin DeRez works because of the characteristics of the Dark algorithm; watch the Dark(Redux) video.
Thank you LaNoam. Of course I've watched the video and I understand that the DeRez accentuates the sound of the dithering algorithm; not necessarily doing the same thing that the stand-alone version of DeRez 2 would do.

I still find it hard to see the purposeful usefulness of this merge of DeRez and Dark, but that's just my personal approach on the matter. I guess it'd be strange to "DeRez Dark" to get more of the Dark sound out of it and yet apply another dither plug-in to actually do the word-length-reduction, be it Dark for even more "darkness" or another, different-sounding dither plug-in.

I was honestly expecting Dark (Redux) to be able to bitcrush and still output a 16/24 PCM word-length audio stream, albeit bitcrushed and degraded - not all 16/24 bits with actual sound information, but 16/24 discrete bits still. Maybe @ chrisj finds this idea interesting?

Thanks everybody.

Lic. Ezequiel Morfi | TITANIO
Buenos Aires, Argentina.-
Old 2 days ago
  #50
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkrabtree View Post

2) It makes it easier to audition dithers - I can use the DeRez to accentuate what's going on, make my comparisons, and then turn off DeRez so I can use it as my dither
This is a rather interesting idea; like trying out a spoonful of mustard to see what a little bit of it would do to your meal.

I still find it odd though, and much rather audition and choose among dither plug-ins at their definite final output; most of the times, 16 bits PCM.

Thank you!

Lic. Ezequiel Morfi | TITANIO
Buenos Aires, Argentina.-
Old 2 days ago
  #51
Lives for gear
 
Bob Yordan's Avatar
Cool

Will definitely join the Dark side.
Old 1 day ago
  #52
Gear Head
 

@ morfi

Definitely the final sound is king! But I currently use the 16-bit settings to help me choose which 24-bit output to use, so this just pushes that process a little further for me. I guess I like licking my spoonfuls of mustard!

And if I was using it as a bitcrusher I doubt I'd do the whole mix - probably just a single track/group.
If you want to output a whole mix at a lower resolution, you can always use the bitshiftgain-trick to get exactly e.g. 8-bits.
Old 1 day ago
  #53
Gear Addict
 

If you work in 44.1 kHz and 16bit, does this plugin have any functional use?
Old 1 day ago
  #54
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeep View Post
If you work in 44.1 kHz and 16bit, does this plugin have any functional use?
DAWS are still running 32bit float so even if your audio is entering the DAW at 16 bit, as soon as you add a plugin or change the levels then you are in 32bit float. This means you still need to dither down to 16bit at the end of your mix. Dark has the options for 16bit and 24bit.
Old 1 day ago
  #55
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkrabtree View Post
@ morfi

Definitely the final sound is king! But I currently use the 16-bit settings to help me choose which 24-bit output to use, so this just pushes that process a little further for me. I guess I like licking my spoonfuls of mustard!

And if I was using it as a bitcrusher I doubt I'd do the whole mix - probably just a single track/group.
If you want to output a whole mix at a lower resolution, you can always use the bitshiftgain-trick to get exactly e.g. 8-bits.
Thank you so much for your insight!

I guess I'm just gathering other user's experiences and applications on the DeRez function inside the word-length reducers (Dark, Beam) to see what I might have missed about that particular control. Thanks again.

Lic. Ezequiel Morfi | TITANIO
Buenos Aires, Argentina.-
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