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Apple releases Logic Pro X 10.5
Old 1 week ago
  #271
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Mubemol's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
It is such an amazing implementation of such superb features. Sampler is amazing, step sequencer is the best and most complete step sequencer I had a chance to use, Live loops implementation is out of this world. This could easily be called 11 and I would gladly pay for this.

This finally settled Logic as my no.1 DAW for good now. Just one last thing really missing for me...a plugin search.
I was thinking the same and found this
https://speakerfood.com/pages/plugsearch-product-page

Haven't tried it...
Old 1 week ago
  #272
Here for the gear
 

Hello everyone, let's keep sideway this ADC Drama who anyone doesn't really care until today because this autosampler is crazy! This literally blasted my head.



I'm gonna sampling every hardware that I find
Old 1 week ago
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkounet View Post
Hello everyone, let's keep sideway this ADC Drama who anyone doesn't really care until today because this autosampler is crazy! This literally blasted my head.



I'm gonna sampling every hardware that I find
This is great for backing up my ASR10 sounds and save them with the projects
Old 1 week ago
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
No, this is one type of a workaround (there are several things to do but neither of them are fulfilling solutions). Some things get compensated on summing stacks/aux buses, some others don't. I will make a separate thread about this and explain workarounds and solutions.
You or someone else probably already mentioned it, but just in case: what I found is that sample accurate plugin automation is not precise and even fluctuating even when no other plugins are inserted, so better turn sample accurate automation off. When turned off everything is much more precise until you insert a latency compensated plugin after the automated plugin. Inserting before is no problem. So for time critical plugin automation the automated plugin should be last in the chain and sample accurate automation should be turned off.
Old 1 week ago
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boody View Post
You or someone else probably already mentioned it, but just in case: what I found is that sample accurate plugin automation is not precise and even fluctuating even when no other plugins are inserted, so better turn sample accurate automation off. When turned off everything is much more precise until you insert a latency compensated plugin after the automated plugin. Inserting before is no problem. So for time critical plugin automation the automated plugin should be last in the chain and sample accurate automation should be turned off.
Thanks for taking this serious. Yes, I know, everything behaves different regarding position, timing accuracy, aux buses vs single tracks when these settings are changed. The bottom line is that there is no setting which does it right, that's why it's so important to get this sorted. There are some clumsy workarounds - but non of them gives you freedom regarding automation, side chains or beat synced plug-ins, you always have to pay a price at one or the other end which is simply unnecessary in 2020 - and overall highly confusing.

To be honest most musicians, producers even audio engineers I know of using Logic believe that their automation will be rendered / heard on the position where they set it - but this is just not the case (as soon as latency is involved).

It is as if your metering shows 0 dBFS although it already has reached 0dbFS+ way before!

Or to put it even more simply but also more blatantly. Imagine every meter in your mixer being at a different level than the actual level. On your first track -3 dB on the meter gets rendered as -5 dB on the next track -9 dB gets rendered as 0 dB and so on.

That would piss everybody off, wouldn't it? The same thing happens with automation. Your automation positions (numbers as in a meter) are rendered at different positions (felt randomly for each channel). And it's just no fun using the calculator to constantly calculate ms vs samples vs ticks to correct automation manually - every time something changes in latency.
Old 1 week ago
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Thanks for taking this serious. Yes, I know, everything behaves different regarding position, timing accuracy, aux buses vs single tracks when these settings are changed. The bottom line is that there is no setting which does it right, that's why it's so important to get this sorted. There are some clumsy workarounds - but non of them gives you freedom regarding automation, side chains or beat synced plug-ins, you always have to pay a price at one or the other end which is simply unnecessary in 2020 - and overall highly confusing.

To be honest most musicians, producers even audio engineers I know of using Logic believe that their automation will be rendered / heard on the position where they set it - but this is just not the case (as soon as latency is involved).

It is as if your metering shows 0 dBFS although it already has reached 0dbFS+ way before!

Or to put it even more simply but also more blatantly. Imagine every meter in your mixer being at a different level than the actual level. On your first track -3 dB on the meter gets rendered as -5 dB on the next track -9 dB gets rendered as 0 dB and so on.

That would piss everybody off, wouldn't it? The same thing happens with automation. Your automation positions (numbers as in a meter) are rendered at different positions (felt randomly for each channel). And it's just no fun using the calculator to constantly calculate ms vs samples vs ticks to correct automation manually - every time something changes in latency.
I agree 100% that this should not be an issue these days. But it is...

I must say that with my workflow I'm not really hindered too much by the issue. I learned to only trust my ears, not the graphics, and to check things before bouncing. For example: another thing that's fluctuating is the pinged latency on hardware inserts. Not constantly, but it needs to be checked regularly if it's time critical, because of possible phase issues for example.

But it is annoying to say the least...
Old 1 week ago
  #277
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nott's Avatar
 

Automation Bug

Yes - indeed! This point is so true.
I think, a lot of users here using the automation without knowing about this issue.

I had also a lot of problems when sharing sessions.
Especially when the other person used a different automation setting.
Sometimes this can be very time consuming and annoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
To be honest most musicians, producers even audio engineers I know of using Logic believe that their automation will be rendered / heard on the position where they set it - but this is just not the case (as soon as latency is involved).
Old 1 week ago
  #278
Gear Nut
 
Proverbalizer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Didn't think of that. I probably bought the wrong model. Just the one who compensates automation for latency with Cubase, Nuendo, Pro Tools, Bitwig, Live and Studio One but not with Logic. Damn!</sarcasm>

Unfortunately the issue is Logic related and hasn't to do with hardware. Neither computer, OS or interface.

Not everyone is sensitive to these shifts or simply uses little automation or hardly any heavy latency generating plug-ins. But in case of high latencies and automation just see, hear and test for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhsm-jq_GhY&t=3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff3SzHQpOuI&t=1s
Simple workaround: Use Cubase, Nuendo, Pro Tools, Bitwig, Live or Studio One

unfortunately, it seems you are unable to make decisions for Apple, so why not make a decision for yourself that will lead to more happy making of music and less frustration?
Old 1 week ago
  #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Morton View Post
Love to try this but it requires an upgrade to Catalina. The last time I upgraded I lost two software instruments from Finale that I occasionally use and the situation requires a paid upgrade to recover them, so i found another solution. There have been some squeals of anguish from people who have upgraded to Catalina. Normally I would get in and decide for myself but with my recent experience I'm listening to my own advice which is 'never upgrade any Apple software until you absolutely have to'.
I think someone already said it, but upgrading to Mojave 10.4.6 is probably a better option
Old 1 week ago
  #280
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nott's Avatar
 

Smile

It is not about the personal taste.
Especially in the music industry there are sometimes more people involved in a project.
I started with Logic 4.8 and after Logic was eaten by Apple I switched to Cubase.
Right now I‘m working also with Logic because of cooperations with other people.
So, sometimes you can not decide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proverbalizer View Post
Simple workaround: Use Cubase, Nuendo, Pro Tools, Bitwig, Live or Studio One

unfortunately, it seems you are unable to make decisions for Apple, so why not make a decision for yourself that will lead to more happy making of music and less frustration?
Old 1 week ago
  #281
Gear Head
 

About the PDC affair... does anyone knows a workaround?

I read time ago about using the I/O plugin, but I tried without luck. And that's WEIRD... actually turning off completely PDC seems to work much better. Even in the example given here using gain and AdLimiter plugins, the latency introduced is shorter (???) btw you have then to move automation manually to fine tune it... but at least it works.
Old 1 week ago
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkounet View Post
This literally blasted my head.
That is very cool! I wish I had that years ago when I still had some analog hardware synths!I would've auto sampled the hell out of them before I got rid of them.
Old 1 week ago
  #283
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Neve View Post
About the PDC affair... does anyone knows a workaround?

I read time ago about using the I/O plugin, but I tried without luck. And that's WEIRD... actually turning off completely PDC seems to work much better. Even in the example given here using gain and AdLimiter plugins, the latency introduced is shorter (???) btw you have then to move automation manually to fine tune it... but at least it works.
Yes, this is one kind of a workaround. But if you set it to off, it behaves better at first sight but somehow differently. Then the position of the latency introducing plug-in is crucial. Before (it gets overcompensated!) or after your automated plug-in (not fully compensated) is relevant. However the shift (missing compensation) is not that huge anymore but still, this is completely messed up. Therefore please anybody read this, please do file a bug report / request over at https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

I will post different workarounds in a separate thread, how to cope with this as best as possible.
Old 1 week ago
  #284
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GJ999x's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proverbalizer View Post
I think someone already said it, but upgrading to Mojave 10.4.6 is probably a better option
Is this possible tho? I'm in 10.4.5 and couldnt see this option despite a ton of googling.
Old 1 week ago
  #285
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Yes, this is one kind of a workaround. But if you set it to off, it behaves better at first sight but somehow differently. Then the position of the latency introducing plug-in is crucial. Before (it gets overcompensated!) or after your automated plug-in (not fully compensated) is relevant. However the shift (missing compensation) is not that huge anymore but still, this is completely messed up. Therefore please anybody read this, please do file a bug report / request over at https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro.html

I will post different workarounds in a separate thread, how to cope with this as best as possible.
Will appreciate for sure. I've been reporting this on every new Logic update, so I guess it's something related to a very deep coding of Logic itself. Otherwise it'll be unforgivable.
Old 1 week ago
  #286
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Lightbulb

After watching your video I can see the bug is definitely there. Point taken. With that said, your are being overly dramatic using extreme examples just to prove your point.

Logic’s automation work as expected UNLESS you purposely use latency inducing plug ins on individual tracks. Let’s say Acustica stuff and a handful of other high latency look-ahead limiters with oversampling turned on. High latency, but properly written code (UAD come to mind) DO NOT display the issue you describe.

Don’t get me wrong man. Apple should definitely address this bug. But things aren’t as bad as you portraying. After all, this isn't a thread about the automation bug, right? It’s a thread about logic 10.5. Shall we move on now, shall we?

Last edited by solidstate; 1 week ago at 01:42 AM.. Reason: grammar
Old 1 week ago
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
High latency, but properly written code (UAD come to mind) DO NOT display the issue you describe.
Sorry, you're wrong. UAD plugins inserted after an automated plugin cause major problems when sample accurate automation is switched off, there is a problem in any case when sample accurate automation is switched on.
Old 1 week ago
  #288
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
High latency, but properly written code (UAD come to mind) DO NOT display the issue you describe
So Logic Adlimiter (among other Logic plugins) is poorly written. Got it.

Last edited by Albert Neve; 1 week ago at 10:25 PM.. Reason: grammar fixes
Old 1 week ago
  #289
Here for the gear
 

From the LPX manual:

Logic Pro compensates for latency introduced by plug-ins, ensuring that audio routed through them is synchronized with all other audio. This is achieved by calculating the amount of latency caused by plug-ins, and then delaying audio streams by an appropriate amount—or shifting instrument and audio tracks forward in time.

If you are careful to understand exactly how PDC is handled by logic you can avoid some the problems people are describing in this thread.

For tracks it says: "shifting instrument and audio tracks forward in time"

If you want to automate plugin parameters on a track then try to avoid having high-latency plugins on that track, put the high-latency plugins on a buss instead, this will mean the 'audio stream' on the buss will be delayed instead of shifting the track forwards in time. If you do have high-latency plugins on the track, then put the plugin you want to automate on the buss instead.

Worst case, you can move the track plugin automation earlier manually to match the PDC. Or just bounce in place before doing the automation.

It would be easier if Logic compensated the automation automatically to avoid needing these work-arounds.
Old 1 week ago
  #290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proverbalizer View Post
I think someone already said it, but upgrading to Mojave 10.4.6 is probably a better option
Yes, thanks. All OK now. I need to look at system requirements in future but I WAS having problems with the app store which was telling me all my apps were up to date. I had to do a web search to get the app store page with the option to download the upgrade.
Old 1 week ago
  #291
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by freako View Post
If you want to automate plugin parameters on a track then try to avoid having high-latency plugins on that track, put the high-latency plugins on a buss instead.
In busses it can get even worse. In my case at least, working with track stacks and high latency plugins is a nightmare
Old 1 week ago
  #292
Gear Nut
 
Proverbalizer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nott View Post
It is not about the personal taste.
Especially in the music industry there are sometimes more people involved in a project.
I started with Logic 4.8 and after Logic was eaten by Apple I switched to Cubase.
Right now I‘m working also with Logic because of cooperations with other people.
So, sometimes you can not decide
point taken (of course you can always export stems to another DAW)

I've used Logic from the beginning (started on 8), and I'm cool with it, but now I'm in Nigeria producing Afrobeats / Afropop...seems like 90% of the producers here are using FL to create their hits. So I'm considering learning it just for potential collaboration purposes.

this is a cool playlist showing the producers breaking down the beats behind some of the popular songs: you'll se FL about 17 times, and Logic about 5 times
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...wYv_1_woC0k4t7

I've literally never seen / heard of any Nigerian producer using PT, but that's not stopping them from creating a tidal wave of flavor that's quickly washing over the world...
Old 1 week ago
  #293
Gear Nut
 
Proverbalizer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
Is this possible tho? I'm in 10.4.5 and couldnt see this option despite a ton of googling.
didn't take me too much googling. (but the link is surely very well hidden in the App store)

try this link:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/maco...828?ls=1&mt=12

(unless it won't work for you because you already have Mojave? I was on 10.13)
Old 1 week ago
  #294
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
Is this possible tho? I'm in 10.4.5 and couldnt see this option despite a ton of googling.

https://support.apple.com/kb/DL2010?...S&locale=en_US
Old 1 week ago
  #295
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nott's Avatar
 

That‘s nice - also Avicii was on FL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proverbalizer View Post
point taken (of course you can always export stems to another DAW)

I've used Logic from the beginning (started on 8), and I'm cool with it, but now I'm in Nigeria producing Afrobeats / Afropop...seems like 90% of the producers here are using FL to create their hits. So I'm considering learning it just for potential collaboration purposes.

this is a cool playlist showing the producers breaking down the beats behind some of the popular songs: you'll se FL about 17 times, and Logic about 5 times
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...wYv_1_woC0k4t7

I've literally never seen / heard of any Nigerian producer using PT, but that's not stopping them from creating a tidal wave of flavor that's quickly washing over the world...
Old 1 week ago
  #296
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boody's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nott View Post
That‘s nice - also Avicii was on FL
Same goes for 90% of the starting young producers here in the Netherlands. It is quite easy to work with and most get their hands on it for free (not that it is free of course)
Old 1 week ago
  #297
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Fleer's Avatar
FL is Belgian after all.
Old 1 week ago
  #298
Gear Nut
 

what logic should work on is making their instruments like the orchestral instruments for example not sound like the quality you get in 100 dollar keyboards
Old 1 week ago
  #299
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by solidstate View Post
After watching your video I can see the bug is definitely there. Point taken. With that said, your are being overly dramatic using extreme examples just to prove your point.

Logic’s automation work as expected UNLESS you purposely use latency inducing plug ins on individual tracks. Let’s say Acustica stuff and a handful of other high latency look-ahead limiters with oversampling turned on. High latency, but properly written code (UAD come to mind) DO NOT display the issue you describe.

Don’t get me wrong man. Apple should definitely address this bug. But things aren’t as bad as you portraying. After all, this isn't a thread about the automation bug, right? It’s a thread about logic 10.5. Shall we move on now, shall we?
Overly dramatic? I'm just giving Wormhole from Zynaptiq a test ride (not on purpose regarding Logic's issue here, just from a sound design perspective).
Now look at that latency. How I'm supposed to automate the Warp tilt button (that's what it's about) especially in conjunction with moving source material (either instrument or audio) and other plug-ins. It's a single plug-in to alter/morph your sound.
With Logic's default settings you got 464,4 ms of latency just for a single automation ride. Your automation is nearly a quarter note(!) off at 120 BPM and 44,1 kHz. This is not overly dramatic, this is simply painful despite all possible workarounds.

Old 1 week ago
  #300
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
There isn't the perfect DAW and Logic Pro X 10.5 is a powerful DAW for any kind of music genre and production. However, a few bugs are pretty annoying and they won't get fixed if people don't draw their attention to it. One have to learn to workaround these flaws and still use this software somehow to its full extend - but it shouldn't be the default state that any timing problems affecting your musical work occur without the knowledge of the user.
Bottom line, it's actually an insult how much I'm upset about the faulty PDC, because Logic only costs 200 bucks. The price performance ratio is insane.
so you would say pro tools handles automation better than logic in terms of latency? I haven't used pro tools and I wonder how it handles latency compared to logic in certain situations
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