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Airwindows Monitoring REDUX: Mac/Windows/Linux AU/VST
Old 3 weeks ago
  #31
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmine View Post
Frankly speaking, it's horrible. I mean "Cans C". I am sorry.

How did you manage to mangle the spatiality, the perception of space and stage so much? It's a complete mess.

Even the simple crossfeed I made myself yesterday in the VST chainer using individual plugins sounds a lot better.
OK, you're losing me. I do what you ask and then this. Are you for real, and if so, do you have more specific arguments to make? This is neither specific nor what I expected, and feels like shenanigans.

Edit: hang on, wait. I apologize. I've just had a look at the very example you've put forth as 'a lot better'.

It's not the example, though. I don't care about that at all. It's the forum that's interesting, in several ways. Firstly, you're no novice to audio foruming even if you're fairly new to Gearslutz, 'cos you've got thousands of posts on Head-Fi. And secondly… uh, head-fi has a somewhat different tone to Gearslutz, and this threw me off

Check some of the folks in there like Gregorio. All fine, but you don't see a tone like that on Gearslutz, and I mistakenly thought you were just here to cause trouble. Turns out you're coming from a place where it's customary to shoot from the hip with gut-level reactions hyped up so you can be sure they'll be heard. It's an audiophile forum. What's more, you're doing stuff I applaud: trying to sort out what you care about in audio, and discovering new things like basic EQ (fellow Voxengo appreciator, I see!) and also being frustrated that companies are charging $65 for something you think can be perfected with a few free plugins.

In that, at least, I am no enemy of yours. My stuff is free and open source, so at least I'm not doing THAT to ya

As for Cans C, maybe you will simply never like the Airwindows style of applying headphone processing (or at least you'd need it to be less, and if you already don't like it that's no solution). You do need to understand that, especially on Gearslutz, you can't simply argue the point and get your way. I'm monitoring on a Lavry Black using custom Sennheiser HD600s: even Cans C is not 'horrible'. But it may be horrible to you specifically, because I do things differently, and that won't change.

I adopted the bass narrowing because you were right. It helped me get my sound a LOT more than I'd done previously. For that I thank you. That doesn't mean your new take is correct for everyone; one listener found it more transparent than before, and I found it easier to get the shape of mixes into a consistent form that doesn't shift tones or balances undesirably. People will come to the situations with different needs. If your needs are incompatible with the (very) unusual methods I've adopted here, then you're going to need to turn elsewhere or write your own plugin.

I'm prepared to help you do that if you like: sounds like your signal-processing 'voice' needs to be heard. It just can't be heard through me at this stage, because while your input helped unexpectedly and a lot, it doesn't seem as if you'll have more to offer to Cans and its particular sounds. It's just going to be different (as in, what it's ended up to be)

Last edited by chrisj; 3 weeks ago at 03:52 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #32
Here for the gear
 

If you allow my measurements again
That self-made crossfeed chain (where really only the first three plugins are needed) is great, i'd say authentic, reminds me of CanOpener, actually, they are the same technically, just with small differences (second screenshot, black and blue = chain, red and green = CanOpener, the closest i could match them) and they sound almost the same. So saying that CanOpener is blurry and muddy and the chain sounds better is just unfair
The chain retains stereo width, where Cans C reduces it on purpose. The chain changes spectral balance, Cans C doesn't touch it at all. So, this is the matter of taste, right? I still can't understand why measurement shows such things, like this is just dimming the sides?
Sadly, this is the part of our Russian nature - be impulsive and argue till death, death of the opponents of course
Attached Thumbnails
Airwindows Monitoring REDUX: Mac/Windows/Linux AU/VST-cans-c.jpg   Airwindows Monitoring REDUX: Mac/Windows/Linux AU/VST-chain-vs-canopener.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #33
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
OK, you're losing me. I do what you ask and then this. Are you for real
Hello Chris,

I bring my deepest apologies, I was wrong.

Your crossfeed (Cans C, in particular) sounds superb now.

It's completely my fault: yesterday I came back late from the gym and I had a limited time left before going to bed - and I tested your plugin on one (heavy metal) album only, with my portable earphones (Sennheiser IE4) only, on my portable player.

It sounded discordant - as if there were two layers of music and they lived their separate lives, creating a slight cacophony.

But, as it turned out today, the album I used yesterday for testing is mastered poorly - it's overly bright and dynamics are squashed. So, it was the fault of the recording, not your plugin.

Today I tested Cans C option more thoroughly using my big stationary system (Wyred4Sound DAC-2 + April Music Stello HP100 headphone amp + Denon D2000/Sennheiser HD650 headphones) and using albums that are mastered better.

Now it indeed sounds on the same, or even a better level, than my other favorite crossfeed plugins! It builds a nice spacious and believable stage at a certain distance in front of me. Drums are not too close to me any more as they were before, in your previous version.

I also noticed that your plugin now sounds less digital and it de-esses the sounds such as "s" and "sh" even better than 112dB Redline Monitor.

I should have tested your plugin more, before I jumped to a hasty and wrong conclusion yesterday.

Last edited by ironmine; 3 weeks ago at 12:04 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #34
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmine View Post
But, as it turned out today, the album I used yesterday for testing is mastered poorly - it's overly bright and dynamics are squashed. So, it was the fault of the recording, not your plugin.

Today I tested Cans C option more thoroughly using my big stationary system (Wyred4Sound DAC-2 + April Music Stello HP100 headphone amp + Denon D2000/Sennheiser HD650 headphones) and using albums that are mastered better.

Now it's indeed sounds one the same, or even a better level, than my other favorite crossfeed plugins! It builds a nice spacious and believable stage at a certain distance in front of me. Drums are not too close to me any more as they were before, in your previous version.

I also noticed that your plugin now sounds less digital and it de-esses the sounds such as "s" and "sh" even better than 112dB Redline Monitor.
Oh good! That really does make me happy, 'cos I was honestly trying to make it better specifically for you (knowing that you had shown me a way that I could do that, and that other people will probably enjoy the result too)

I worked quite a bit on exactly the soundstage and being able to place drums (I was using a recording of Pink Floyd with widely panned tom fills: Another Brick In The Wall part 2) appropriately. And it's not de-essing, but the changes in allpasses specifically help the ess sounds by softening 'crossfeed' sounds in a way that doesn't mess with the mix itself.

I will point that you learned something but it wasn't a blame thing. Your observation on the poorly mixed metal album is actually important, because it speaks to another goal of mix-tool plugins: with this kind of plugin it's kind of like the famous Yamaha NS10. It's possible to make a speaker or plugin where 'everything sounds good', but it's more important to make a plugin where bad stuff sounds as bad as good stuff sounds good.

I hope that album with crossfeed sounded exactly as bad as it would have without the plugin, and I'm sorry if this confused you at the time but I'm pleased it happened. It's a good sign that I was on the right track

And I'm happy that all is well! Thank you for the relisten
Old 1 week ago
  #35
Lives for gear
 
peter_martin's Avatar
 

Chris,

I must say Monitoring has been a fantastic and truly important tool in my commercial projects. Subs/slew/peak only are what helped me get over the hump of really hearing music from a different yet musical perspective.

Your dithering, Desk4, and tubedesk reach into every paid project I humbly receive.

Even though you have some things that exhibit bizarre behavior from an audio perspective you have so many ones that are beautiful/musical.

keep it up.


pm
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter_martin View Post
Chris,

I must say Monitoring has been a fantastic and truly important tool in my commercial projects. Subs/slew/peak only are what helped me get over the hump of really hearing music from a different yet musical perspective.

Your dithering, Desk4, and tubedesk reach into every paid project I humbly receive.

Even though you have some things that exhibit bizarre behavior from an audio perspective you have so many ones that are beautiful/musical.

keep it up.


pm
I will! And thank you. Recent weeks have been exhausting, but not so much from a 'plugins' perspective: I've been able to reinvest in my studio (notably the video side) to better make the YouTube videos with which I communicate, and though I've been able to jump the quality level WAY up, it's been at the cost of needing to reinvent the way I do it every single time. Normally it's not like that: I get stuff that works and stick with it, which is way less stressful. It's finally settling into a reliable form now, one that allows wonderful new things (I will be able to demo guitar tones and things alongside the 'Evergreens' podcast examples I do for Patreon subscribers) and here's hoping I can get calm seas and embark on new adventures in plugin-land (which is what people usually find Airwindows useful for).

It means a lot to me to hear that work I've done has been useful. Thank you
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