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Plugin Alliance: ProAudioDSP DSM V3
Old 1 week ago
  #241
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
The DSM may not sound awful with heavy compression while the music is playing - giving people a false sense of security? But the starts of the program from silence still bite you.
Can you add some kind of automatable "Learn and Preroll" function for the compression?
It could work something like this: you play a track with the settings on DSM which you like, hit Learn and it calculates average GR for the piece. Then you automate "Preroll" on the start of the song and DSM starts at average GR, when the actual GR calculated by the detector reaches this average level, it resets from Preroll. It is, of course not perfect, but should at least avoid peaking at the start.
Old 1 week ago
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meloco_go View Post
Can you add some kind of automatable "Learn and Preroll" function for the compression?
It could work something like this: you play a track with the settings on DSM which you like, hit Learn and it calculates average GR for the piece. Then you automate "Preroll" on the start of the song and DSM starts at average GR, when the actual GR calculated by the detector reaches this average level, it resets from Preroll. It is, of course not perfect, but should at least avoid peaking at the start.
I'm sorry, this sounds like a complex and unpredictable process which is bound to cause confusion and limitation.

The way to prevent overshooting on compressors is to avoid doing too much compression - unless you are using a very fast attack times. This is true of all compressors - whether working in real time or during off-line rendering.

The fact that the DSM can manage 24dB of hard limiting without sounding awful is a great feet of engineering. But it is not a reason to obviate the need to use it sensibly..

I cannot make you an 'automatic' DSM without removing the vast majority of the creative stuff you can do with it - and many people have indeed been doing with it for 10 years now.

If you want something that makes the decisions for you - the DSM might not be your best choice of product :-)
Old 1 week ago
  #243
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
I'm sorry, this sounds like a complex and unpredictable process which is bound to cause confusion and limitation.
Well, maybe I was not very clear describing it, but yeah, it's always best to avoid unnecessary complications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
The way to prevent overshooting on compressors is to avoid doing too much compression - unless you are using a very fast attack times. This is true of all compressors - whether working in real time or during off-line rendering.

The fact that the DSM can manage 24dB of hard limiting without sounding awful is a great feet of engineering. But it is not a reason to obviate the need to use it sensibly..
Yes, but if it sounds right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
I cannot make you an 'automatic' DSM without removing the vast majority of the creative stuff you can do with it - and many people have indeed been doing with it for 10 years now.

If you want something that makes the decisions for you - the DSM might not be your best choice of product :-)
I see your point, I just thought that what I thought about could be done relatively easily, but indeed implementing it in a way that it is clear for the end-user on an already very powerful tool with plenty of controls may be too much.


Anyway, for anyone suffering from volume spikes at the start of the tracks with DSM, just render the track with DSM bypassed, add a pre-roll, add the render to the preroll and mute the master output before the actual track starts. Similar things were done on analog equipment too -- you could "warm up" compressor before the actual track starts.
Old 1 week ago
  #244
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How about a simple "noise burst" button that can be automated, one where the noise happens before the captured spectrum (so it gets shaped) and one that is internal, not audible? But yeah, like was said before, this can be done manually and then just cut away the "primer" burst/sound after rendering.
Old 1 week ago
  #245
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Jpga's Avatar
 

I have owned this plug since V1 but have never understood it. Is there anyone who wants and can make a video where you go through how to use it and what all functions do. Please please Please.
Old 1 week ago
  #246
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biksonije's Avatar
 

Those relatively few videos that are out there pretty clearly describes (at least) basic operational moves. Of course that moves and settings will differ from material to material but also from user's expectations.

Can't place links here (no reason for really) as there are literally a few good ones. Two or three from Mr. Frindle here. Look those up. Also, from a newer ones, one longer from PA. It does not go to any depths as this is an intelligent compressor per se so nothing new. I think that everything here with this FANTASTIC plugin lies with the user, material, wishes and expectations (desire?). And, on top of it all there is a manual in PDF format for download from PA.

I have to admit that there is a learning curve with this plugin. On real life situations. Even after watching Mr. Frindle's videos you need to invest time and effort to get to know it. It's not just one in line of compressors with ratio/attack/release/gain functions. Thou it have all of those mentioned right now.

Hope you'll find what you're looking for! It is amazing helping tool. Love it!

Krešo
Old 1 week ago
  #247
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by biksonije View Post
Those relatively few videos that are out there pretty clearly describes (at least) basic operational moves. Of course that moves and settings will differ from material to material but also from user's expectations.

Can't place links here (no reason for really) as there are literally a few good ones. Two or three from Mr. Frindle here. Look those up. Also, from a newer ones, one longer from PA. It does not go to any depths as this is an intelligent compressor per se so nothing new. I think that everything here with this FANTASTIC plugin lies with the user, material, wishes and expectations (desire?). And, on top of it all there is a manual in PDF format for download from PA.

I have to admit that there is a learning curve with this plugin. On real life situations. Even after watching Mr. Frindle's videos you need to invest time and effort to get to know it. It's not just one in line of compressors with ratio/attack/release/gain functions. Thou it have all of those mentioned right now.

Hope you'll find what you're looking for! It is amazing helping tool. Love it!

Krešo
I spent yesterday afternoon trying to get set up to do some more quick videos.
But sadly 'quick' wasn't quick enough. I will try again later.
Old 1 week ago
  #248
Gear Maniac
 

Don't over think it guys, it's not just another compressor - but it is a compressor. Just use your ears, it's a compressor I go to with clear objectives in mind for what needs to happen to the source. It's not a slap-on-source compressor to get that distressor snare sound or anything - it's a compressor you use when there are multiple broad stroke objectives in a single source or mix that you want to accomplish moving without affecting other things.

Don't ask what this compressor can do - think about what needs to be done, apply basic basic compression principles, and then tweak and push in different directions from there. Listen, is it better? Probably. The compressor is very good, it just accomplishes these objectives different from other compressors, you don't need to know why

It's a, "I want to affect this, without affecting this" kind of thing, right?

That's my take atleast, I don't mind being corrected.


Load up a Buena Vista Social Club reference track or something and play around with it, that will do much more for you than a video example.
Old 1 week ago
  #249
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biksonije's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
I spent yesterday afternoon trying to get set up to do some more quick videos.
But sadly 'quick' wasn't quick enough. I will try again later.
Oh well, I completely understand you. I really do.

As much as this is elegant and simple compressor yet rather unusual one there will always be requests for in-depth explanation. Any additional video/paperwork as a draft manual is always more than welcome. But, in the nutshell DSM being a compressor on steroids, it shouldn't be that hard to figure it out. And to listen what it does. Really listen! There are some starting points not fully understood and not fully clear for me as well as for other users I believe but after having used mine since v2 and now in v3 I can just say THANK YOU for any extra effort and for "manual" videos or any "how to" videos!

Best regards,

Krešo
Old 1 week ago
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
I spent yesterday afternoon trying to get set up to do some more quick videos.
But sadly 'quick' wasn't quick enough. I will try again later.
Well I did one just now but it's taking an age to crop, edit and upload.

I feel for these guys who put together Youtube content..
Old 1 week ago
  #251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
Well I did one just now but it's taking an age to crop, edit and upload.

I feel for these guys who put together Youtube content..
The labour of love continues... thank you!!
Old 1 week ago
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Klimek View Post
The labour of love continues... thank you!!
Well it's bollox - Youtube has compressed it to 360P

I'm trying to delete it - and can't even find a way to do that..
Old 1 week ago
  #253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
Well it's bollox - Youtube has compressed it to 360P

I'm trying to delete it - and can't even find a way to do that..
I had a hard time figuring out the same thing recently... confusing site.


I use these settings in ffmpeg, if it helps any:
-c:v libx264 -crf 18 -c:a aac -b:a 256k -pix_fmt yuv420p -r 30
Old 1 week ago
  #254
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
Well it's bollox - Youtube has compressed it to 360P

I'm trying to delete it - and can't even find a way to do that..
I think the other formats are probably still uploading to the site, they just give you the 360p first. I could be wrong.

Use Vimeo, pretty sure it's higher quality sound
Old 1 week ago
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
Well it's bollox - Youtube has compressed it to 360P

I'm trying to delete it - and can't even find a way to do that..
Ok - there's finally a version up on YT at 720P with some semblance of the original video capture sound.
Old 1 week ago
  #256
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
Ok - there's finally a version up on YT at 720P with some semblance of the original video capture sound.
As YT's system populates the higher quality video will be available. Looking forward to watching and learning!
Old 1 week ago
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JfromRVA View Post
As YT's system populates the higher quality video will be available. Looking forward to watching and learning!
Ok - I hope this kind of ad-hoc video is useful to people? :-)

I much prefer just doing this stuff in the fly live, rather than messing around trying to do the most polished performance. LOL
Old 1 week ago
  #258
Gear Maniac
 
ChrisNunchuck's Avatar
Thanks for the video. It would be nice to see an example of how to use expansion effectively with it.
Old 1 week ago
  #259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle View Post
Ok - I hope this kind of ad-hoc video is useful to people? :-)

I much prefer just doing this stuff in the fly live, rather than messing around trying to do the most polished performance. LOL
For a lot of years I have avoided "joining" youtube. I would visit frequently, and did enjoy many of the videos I watched.

Until today. I joined so I could subscribe to your page - is that what they call it, page? At any rate, this is the kind of thing that made giving them the info they wanted worthwhile.

I appreciate you taking the time to do this, Paul. You have at least one new subscriber today. And I know when you add anything new I will now be notified.

Your efforts are noticed and appreciated, good sir.
Old 1 week ago
  #260
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degas's Avatar
 

Man, DSM and other PA-plugins have extremely laggy gui’s nowadays. This is on Mojave/Logic.
Almost unbearable.
Old 1 week ago
  #261
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by degas View Post
Man, DSM and other PA-plugins have extremely laggy gui’s nowadays. This is on Mojave/Logic.
Almost unbearable.
Despite what mac users believe, Windows PC are much better workstations with less problems. I still Run Windows 7 with new AD/DA drivers, new DAWs, new plugins... and old. Zero problems.
Old 1 week ago
  #262
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degas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainCheck123 View Post
Despite what mac users believe, Windows PC are much better workstations with less problems. I still Run Windows 7 with new AD/DA drivers, new DAWs, new plugins... and old. Zero problems.
Hmmm... But if every other plugin is working, how can it be a mac problem?
Old 1 week ago
  #263
Quote:
Originally Posted by degas View Post
Man, DSM and other PA-plugins have extremely laggy gui’s nowadays. This is on Mojave/Logic.
Almost unbearable.
I never followed PA closely, but wasn't there a long period where their plugins didn't work at all on the latest mac version?
Old 1 week ago
  #264
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degas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Klimek View Post
I never followed PA closely, but wasn't there a long period where their plugins didn't work at all on the latest mac version?
I don't know. I never had a problem with them, until the last couple of updates they did.
But I've read that some Windows users experience the same lag, so it's problably in the framework somehow.

First it was only SPL Iron. But now the same thing happens with bx_digital and DSM3 (V2 was fine before).
Old 1 week ago
  #265
Hmm, I just remember a few years ago being unable to use bx_solo or the 1 plugin I owned for a year or so and never cared enough to investigate. Maybe it was on my end.

Not having any issues with their plugs atm on a 2012 mac mini
Old 1 week ago
  #266
Gear Addict
I have mojave and DSM3 and don't have this lag issue at all. I have no idea what can be causing it on your system but I would check with PA, rather than assuming it is a fault at their end.
Old 1 week ago
  #267
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degas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsyourself View Post
I have mojave and DSM3 and don't have this lag issue at all. I have no idea what can be causing it on your system but I would check with PA, rather than assuming it is a fault at their end.
Well, I have a fresh install and PA already know about this problem (from me and other users), so I’m not sure who else to blame. And of course no other plugins behave this way (not even all PA-plugs).

GS member Jeezo also mentioned this in another thread, and he is on Windows.
But enough about that. Been using DSM since V1 and V3 is a great update that I apreciate a lot.
Old 1 week ago
  #268
Gear Maniac
 
ChrisNunchuck's Avatar
Major lag in Adobe Audition, have to set the 3 bottom thresholds manually as using a mouse either sets it to -24 or +24 only. Same with freq knobs, only sets to min or max, nowhere in between. Windows 7. Fine in Cubase.
edit- correction, that was V2, my demo timed out before I could check on V3.

Last edited by ChrisNunchuck; 1 week ago at 10:13 PM.. Reason: need more info
Old 1 week ago
  #269
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biksonije's Avatar
 

Hey all!

First a reply, more like a comment, to @ Mol oco_go:
"Learn and Preroll" as you call it is there already. Unless I'm getting it all wrong here of course! So, let me try to tell you how I see it. If I'm off here is Mt. Frindle himself and he can shed some light on this one.

So, as long as you hold your "Click" on the Capture option (Click + hold option) it calculates an average of what plugin is calculating (capturing). I suppose it's similar to REW (don't know have you seen it or done it) while you're calculating a room curve. The longer the capture, the more precise curve is. Like "averaging". So, if that's the same principle of calculation in DSM there's your "Learn and Preroll". In somewhat hasty video PA put out their presenter Max has gone thru paces but I'm not sure was it cleared and even explained. Really can't say now. Nevermind, as I said, Mr. Frindle is here to explain which I'm positive he'll gladly do.

Some will say go for busiest and loudest, most dynamic part and capture that. What about those light parts? Not so dynamic? Well, if I'm correct, as the name says, DSM is a dynamic processor. Not static like 99% of compressor tools with fixed attack, release, etc. In DSM there are those controls as well. I admit that. So, and this is the part I don't fully understand myself as well, why the heck two approaches? One dynamic and one static? Not sure. I believe those "static" parts are something like starting points to it's dynamic counterpart. Ughhhh... Or not! Hehehe... :-/

Anyway, I went too far. I don't get it myself 100% but listening to material being processed with DSM is like with any tool main objective. I just hope I didn't overcomplicated it. I am participating here. Hahaha...

I have an idea for dynamic part. Take any material as an example. It will have different dynamic all thru it's duration. I couldn't say how complicated it is but maybe differences in dynamics could be addressed better by having both higher and lower ratio options (controls) where in between those two points DSM would work? I really hope this makes sense to what I'm saying...

@ Everyone else here:
Yes, as many of you are saying. It is a compressor. A new approach in compressing sh**"t! Something new to learn.

Best to all you Slutz!

Krešo
Old 1 week ago
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biksonije View Post
Hey all!

First a reply, more like a comment, to @ Mol oco_go:
"Learn and Preroll" as you call it is there already. Unless I'm getting it all wrong here of course! So, let me try to tell you how I see it. If I'm off here is Mt. Frindle himself and he can shed some light on this one.

So, as long as you hold your "Click" on the Capture option (Click + hold option) it calculates an average of what plugin is calculating (capturing). I suppose it's similar to REW (don't know have you seen it or done it) while you're calculating a room curve. The longer the capture, the more precise curve is. Like "averaging". So, if that's the same principle of calculation in DSM there's your "Learn and Preroll". In somewhat hasty video PA put out their presenter Max has gone thru paces but I'm not sure was it cleared and even explained. Really can't say now. Nevermind, as I said, Mr. Frindle is here to explain which I'm positive he'll gladly do.
When you click the capture button it takes a snap shot of the energy within the bands - with the maximum accuracy available.

When you hold the button down it takes successive captures automatically (at some nominal rate) - adds them together progressively and divides the values by the number taken (that sort of thing) to 'normalise' them.

You can't really consider the averaging as an 'accuracy' function since averaging doesn't improve basic accuracy - it only 'smears' the curve over time - so that the result is an average of the action within that time.

Quote:
Some will say go for busiest and loudest, most dynamic part and capture that. What about those light parts? Not so dynamic? Well, if I'm correct, as the name says, DSM is a dynamic processor. Not static like 99% of compressor tools with fixed attack, release, etc. In DSM there are those controls as well. I admit that. So, and this is the part I don't fully understand myself as well, why the heck two approaches? One dynamic and one static? Not sure. I believe those "static" parts are something like starting points to it's dynamic counterpart. Ughhhh... Or not! Hehehe... :-/
The DSM is a dynamic process in that it changes the gains in those bands depending on the music itself (i.e. where levels breach the threshold) - like any other compressor.

It does have controls for attack and release times calibrated as general guide. However it also has 'laws and history' attached to it's action such that it's adaptive to the required extent, depending on peak levels and history over time. This is in fact normal for advanced compressors and some of the same action is present on the Sony Dynamics, Limiter - and in fact was also present on analogue SSL compressors we made too.

Quote:
Anyway, I went too far. I don't get it myself 100% but listening to material being processed with DSM is like with any tool main objective. I just hope I didn't overcomplicated it. I am participating here. Hahaha...

I have an idea for dynamic part. Take any material as an example. It will have different dynamic all thru it's duration. I couldn't say how complicated it is but maybe differences in dynamics could be addressed better by having both higher and lower ratio options (controls) where in between those two points DSM would work? I really hope this makes sense to what I'm saying...
Again this depends on what you are calling 'dynamic'?
If you mean that the 'speed of action' should be different depending on history - well it already does that.
If you mean the 'speed of action' should be programmable by the user, depending on the levels encountered within the music - well this would be more complex, more prone to getting wrong and much more complex to users.
If you mean that brute overall timing should be dependent on the ratio settings - well this depends on the architecture of the process - most notably whether the ratio control comes before or after the time constants themselves. Some compressors may end up having variable timing depending on ratio, by dint of their architecture. But I have always preferred to avoid this added complication for the user - by keeping the timing coupled to the actual gain changes of the compressor itself in real terms. In other words; As a user I don't really want the overall timing to change, just because I adjusted the ratio control.
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