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Question about Jingle Punks and similar companies
Old 10th March 2015
  #1
Here for the gear
 
Panosnyc's Avatar
Question about Jingle Punks and similar companies

Hello to all,I'm a new member and have a few questions about Jingle Punks(some of You might have had experience with them) and/or similar companies.
I'm sorry if the questions are too many, advice and opinions from people that have experience in the jingle/commercial music would help me a lot.

so...I submitted my stuff to JP(2 tracks) on march 2 and I'm still waiting for the review process(after the review they tell you if Your songs are accepted or not).

1)if Your songs are accepted,what is the process after that?Do they make You sign anything?(like an non-excl. deal?)

2)I wish to go non-exclusive, and send them 15 tracks(the maximum you can send as non-exclusive writer), can i affiliate with another publisher while non-exclusive with JP? Can i have 15 tracks with JP and another 15 with...lets say.."A music library"...?

3)I'm affiliated with BMI(a few months now), if i get accepted by JP should i register the cues i sent to JP with BMI? or does JP take care of everything?


4)if any of You have experience with JP what is Your advice(what style of music seems to get more placements,how do you like the affiliation,their support...etc)

+5)Also another question for people in the commercial music field:

I make all kinds of music,Between JP and other companies what is the best company to send music for Tv trailers?

I've been making a lot of 30''-60'' tracks(themes or background) for shows(mainly action/drama) is there a company like JP that might do better job placing those tracks compared to JP? I mean JP seems legit, I like their placements, but the stuff i wanna get placed sound something like the theme song from "Prison Break" and I was just wondering if there is a company dedicated in placing stuff like that more successfully than any other publisher.

Should i....?lets say...send all my electronic stuff to JP...and all my drama/action themes to another company?

I'm sorry if the questions are weird,repetitive and maybe silly but the music industry is sooo weird! Publishing is very confusing

Thanks in advance for any replies!
Old 10th March 2015
  #2
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
First, just for the record, I've never sent anything to JP, but I CAN answer some of your questions.

1. I don't know what their "process" is, but there is definitely an agreement that you must agree to. It's possible that just sending in your songs is tacit to agreeing to their terms. But most libraries I've dealt with issue paper contracts that must be signed and agreed to before they will release your material. On-line, "just submit and lets see what happens" libraries are all over the place though. Could be almost anything. There are many here who have music with JP, so hopefully they will chime in.

2. Yes and Yes. Non-exclusive is exactly that. You can put your material wherever you want. Some libraries won't allow you to submit if you are with other certain "micro-stock" libraries though. Good to know. Read the fine print. Most on-line libraries have their contract and terms right up front so you can check out their conditions before submitting.

3. Absolutely NOT. ESPECIALLY for Exclusive libraries. Generally, most non-exclusive libraries will retitle and will submit the "new" song for you. You CAN submit under your own publishing company with your original title though, but the general rule is to NOT do JP or any other libraries job for them ahead of time - unless they specifically mention that they do not register the title. The obvious indicator for that being that they do not take publishing, so registration in those circumstances is left to you. It actually can make their registration process more difficult.

4. Sorry, as I mentioned, I have no idea.

5. re: Trailers : search is your friend. Research is what will get you ahead in this biz and save you from making a myriad of mistakes you could have avoided. Just a few threads below yours : https://www.gearslutz.com/board/musi...ler-style.html

Pay special attention to Etch's post.

re: the rest of your questions. There is no answer for you. These are the questions every composer ponders. Every path to success is unique and different. You must find your own way. It takes years. Decades really. It sounds like you're just starting out. Talent considered a given, perseverance, tenacity and a good attitude are your best friends on the journey. Best of luck.

bp

Last edited by drBill; 10th March 2015 at 05:48 AM..
Old 10th March 2015
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
Troy Engle's Avatar
 

drBill answered most of your questions. If you get accepted, they will send a contract with the info in it. They also have an artist faq, that explains most of it. They do non-exclusive AND exclusive stuff. Getting started in the music library world is confusing, and the industry is changing fast. It still gets confusing for me, and even people who have been doing it a lot longer than me. JP has been good to me, but may not be the case for everyone. Music Library Report is another great resource. I don't think they'd be the place for trailer music, but it may get used some way you might not imagine. I'm not into trailer stuff, but that seems like an extremely competitive arena. Best of luck with it all!
Old 10th March 2015
  #4
Here for the gear
 
Panosnyc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
First, just for the record, I've never sent anything to JP, but I CAN answer some of your questions.

1. I don't know what their "process" is, but there is definitely an agreement that you must agree to. It's possible that just sending in your songs is tacit to agreeing to their terms. But most libraries I've dealt with issue paper contracts that must be signed and agreed to before they will release your material. On-line, "just submit and lets see what happens" libraries are all over the place though. Could be almost anything. There are many here who have music with JP, so hopefully they will chime in.

2. Yes and Yes. Non-exclusive is exactly that. You can put your material wherever you want. Some libraries won't allow you to submit if you are with other certain "micro-stock" libraries though. Good to know. Read the fine print. Most on-line libraries have their contract and terms right up front so you can check out their conditions before submitting.

3. Absolutely NOT. ESPECIALLY for Exclusive libraries. Generally, most non-exclusive libraries will retitle and will submit the "new" song for you. You CAN submit under your own publishing company with your original title though, but the general rule is to NOT do JP or any other libraries job for them ahead of time - unless they specifically mention that they do not register the title. The obvious indicator for that being that they do not take publishing, so registration in those circumstances is left to you. It actually can make their registration process more difficult.

4. Sorry, as I mentioned, I have no idea.

5. re: Trailers : search is your friend. Research is what will get you ahead in this biz and save you from making a myriad of mistakes you could have avoided. Just a few threads below yours : https://www.gearslutz.com/board/musi...ler-style.html

Pay special attention to Etch's post.

re: the rest of your questions. There is no answer for you. These are the questions every composer ponders. Every path to success is unique and different. You must find your own way. It takes years. Decades really. It sounds like you're just starting out. Talent considered a given, perseverance, tenacity and a good attitude are your best friends on the journey. Best of luck.

bp
hey thanks for replying! wow Etch helped a lot i'm actually gonna do a lot of homework with these companies and see if i can send my stuff to some of them!
Old 11th March 2015
  #5
Gear Head
 
5StringAssassin's Avatar
 

I got my first placement through JP a couple years ago(hip hop tune for a show on VH1). There are definitely legit, drBill spelled out pretty much everything in his post. I would recommend submitting as many cues as you possibly can to increase your odds. Reading the posts here on these forums has given me a much needed kick in the butt to churn out more cues. I'm shooting for one per day now.

Also, when submitting your paperwork, it's CRITICAL to include as much metadata for each work as possible. This will increase your visibility when supervisors look for tracks. It's a bit tedious, but well worth it.

Good luck!
Old 12th March 2015
  #6
Lives for gear
 

JP are a totally legit company and are now exclusive only to new submissions.
Old 19th March 2015
  #7
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

jingle punks? i think you mean William Morris Endeavor

and the story goes that with big backing then they can easily dont ask for upfront fee to the client and therefore the composers doesnt get upfront fee/license$. just hopes for placement wich might not happen.
Old 19th March 2015
  #8
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
jingle punks? i think you mean William Morris Endeavor

and the story goes that with big backing then they can easily dont ask for upfront fee to the client and therefore the composers doesnt get upfront fee/license$. just hopes for placement wich might not happen.
"Despite the WME takeover, Gutstadt still posits himself as the middle man between big business and indie musicians."

Read on: Money Calling: Jingle Punks' Reality TV Fortune - Forbes
Old 19th March 2015
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
Troy Engle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
jingle punks? i think you mean William Morris Endeavor

and the story goes that with big backing then they can easily dont ask for upfront fee to the client and therefore the composers doesnt get upfront fee/license$. just hopes for placement wich might not happen.
JP has and still does pay sync fees. They have been good to me, sorry if you've had a bad experience.
Old 19th March 2015
  #10
Lives for gear
 
jazz4's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Engle View Post
JP has and still does pay sync fees. They have been good to me, sorry if you've had a bad experience.
Would you say your sync fees are substantial? I have had A LOT of placements with JP but have only ever received sync fees for one placement.

JP have been great to me too, but I've been really disappointed with syncs.
Old 19th March 2015
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
Troy Engle's Avatar
 

My first year I had what I thought were pretty substantial sync fees. Definitely been lower payouts lately, but still getting a little bit. I'm sure it's different for everyone.
Old 19th March 2015
  #12
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jazz4's Avatar
 

The isse with my stuff is that it's always being used in reality tv and most of these libraries have blanket deals with those kinds of shows. The only sync I was paid for was a PBS Documentary.
Old 19th March 2015
  #13
I don't think most composers are going to get sync fees, especially for cable placements.

All of the big money goes to the big dogs. The owners and employees of the company are going to get first pick at the big money deals. Whatever they pass on is what everyone else has a shot at landing.

Some composers may think this is unfair, but not me. That is how business works. The placements are there, so it isn't as big of a deal to me.

If I want the big deals, I have to make a name for myself or get connected to someone with a bigger name. Making great music is just the starting point.
Old 19th March 2015
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
"Despite the WME takeover, Gutstadt still posits himself as the middle man between big business and indie musicians."

Read on: Money Calling: Jingle Punks' Reality TV Fortune - Forbes
Great article Desire, thanks for posting! I can't help but have images of a sweat shop though, with the way they describe what the staff writers have to do. I've heard stories before about that, and the article kind of confirms it to some degree.

Anyway, interesting read.
Old 19th March 2015
  #15
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
TRADITIONALLY - composers have never gotten Sync Fee's from music libraries. Even today, I do not know of a single composer who's signed to a major A list music library that gets a sync fee split. They just don't. That's why the libraries buy you out upfront - so that they can own your masters, publishing and retain 100% of the sync fees and 100% of the publishing. There are NO sync fees or publishing splits for composers in the A list libraries. (This has been my experience and the experience of my peers, and is a GENERAL rule. Of course, like all rules, I'm sure someone can point to one or two examples where I'm wrong, but for the most part, I think you will find it's an unfortunate reality.)

The B-D list, "sign up online", "we'll take anyone" (or almost anyone), "you don't need a name or experience", "more is better" and we want more -- those libraries offer sync splits - BECAUSE - they give you nothing up front. No real guarantee of any sort other than "your music is now available for license". No money up front, and no other guarantees = some degree of equality in the money split. Otherwise, why "give" them your music? So you have to choose and roll the dice.

And for those who in a desperate attempt to wedge their foot in the door who give away publishing AND get nothing up front..... Just don't do it. It's not a winning game plan in 97% of situations. (Although I do know of one situation where it works...but it's unique and not "open to the public".)

Choose one or choose the other. But do not be deceived. Sync splits are and always have been a mirage. The B/C/D level companies don't have enough juice to generate them, and the A level companies won't share them cause they buy you out up front. Your choice.

Disclaimer - I'm talking about REAL money here in regards to sync splits. Not $2-8 per title X 100 titles per quarter.
Old 19th March 2015
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Great article Desire, thanks for posting! I can't help but have images of a sweat shop though, with the way they describe what the staff writers have to do. I've heard stories before about that, and the article kind of confirms it to some degree.

Anyway, interesting read.
I would be cool being a staff writer for two or three years. I wouldn't see it being a long term thing for me though. JP gets a lot of music used on the cue sheets I see. I am not sure what the salary is for a staff composer but they probably do good from backend royalties. Still, it seems like a ton of work everyday to just churn out musical wallpaper for reality TV shows.
Old 19th March 2015
  #17
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Beats churning out Big Mac's.
Old 19th March 2015
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
TRADITIONALLY - composers have never gotten Sync Fee's from music libraries. Even today, I do not know of a single composer who's signed to a major A list music library that gets a sync fee split. They just don't. That's why the libraries buy you out upfront - so that they can own your masters, publishing and retain 100% of the sync fees and 100% of the publishing. There are NO sync fees or publishing splits for composers in the A list libraries. (This has been my experience and the experience of my peers, and is a GENERAL rule. Of course, like all rules, I'm sure someone can point to one or two examples where I'm wrong, but for the most part, I think you will find it's an unfortunate reality.)

The B-D list, "sign up online", "we'll take anyone" (or almost anyone), "you don't need a name or experience", "more is better" and we want more -- those libraries offer sync splits - BECAUSE - they give you nothing up front. No real guarantee of any sort other than "your music is now available for license". No money up front, and no other guarantees = some degree of equality in the money split. Otherwise, why "give" them your music? So you have to choose and roll the dice.

And for those who in a desperate attempt to wedge their foot in the door who give away publishing AND get nothing up front..... Just don't do it. It's not a winning game plan in 97% of situations. (Although I do know of one situation where it works...but it's unique and not "open to the public".)

Choose one or choose the other. But do not be deceived. Sync splits are and always have been a mirage. The B/C/D level companies don't have enough juice to generate them, and the A level companies won't share them cause they buy you out up front. Your choice.

Disclaimer - I'm talking about REAL money here in regards to sync splits. Not $2-8 per title X 100 titles per quarter.
Regarding Jingle Punks initially it was a non exclusive deal so you weren't handing your publishing to them. I have got 4 figure sync placements from them pretty regularly actually. I would agree that their current exclusive deal is a no no.
Old 19th March 2015
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsdenis View Post
Regarding Jingle Punks initially it was a non exclusive deal so you weren't handing your publishing to them. I have got 4 figure sync placements from them pretty regularly actually. I would agree that their current exclusive deal is a no no.
It isn't as bad as you think.

With the exclusive deal, you never give up the copyright. You enter into a limited duration licensing deal. You sign the songs over to Jingle Punks and you are not allowed to sign the songs with any other company. Before the term is complete, you can choose to terminate the deal by sending in a written request.

So you do have the opportunity to get control of your music back at some point.
Old 23rd October 2019
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panosnyc View Post
Hello to all,I'm a new member and have a few questions about Jingle Punks(some of You might have had experience with them) and/or similar companies.
I'm sorry if the questions are too many, advice and opinions from people that have experience in the jingle/commercial music would help me a lot.

so...I submitted my stuff to JP(2 tracks) on march 2 and I'm still waiting for the review process(after the review they tell you if Your songs are accepted or not).

1)if Your songs are accepted,what is the process after that?Do they make You sign anything?(like an non-excl. deal?)

2)I wish to go non-exclusive, and send them 15 tracks(the maximum you can send as non-exclusive writer), can i affiliate with another publisher while non-exclusive with JP? Can i have 15 tracks with JP and another 15 with...lets say.."A music library"...?

3)I'm affiliated with BMI(a few months now), if i get accepted by JP should i register the cues i sent to JP with BMI? or does JP take care of everything?


4)if any of You have experience with JP what is Your advice(what style of music seems to get more placements,how do you like the affiliation,their support...etc)

+5)Also another question for people in the commercial music field:

I make all kinds of music,Between JP and other companies what is the best company to send music for Tv trailers?

I've been making a lot of 30''-60'' tracks(themes or background) for shows(mainly action/drama) is there a company like JP that might do better job placing those tracks compared to JP? I mean JP seems legit, I like their placements, but the stuff i wanna get placed sound something like the theme song from "Prison Break" and I was just wondering if there is a company dedicated in placing stuff like that more successfully than any other publisher.

Should i....?lets say...send all my electronic stuff to JP...and all my drama/action themes to another company?

I'm sorry if the questions are weird,repetitive and maybe silly but the music industry is sooo weird! Publishing is very confusing

Thanks in advance for any replies!
Is Jingle Punks working out for you?
Old 23rd October 2019
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Is Jingle Punks working out for you?
You are officially the old thread resuscitator today D.I.

(Not a bad thing at all. There have been some good threads through the years we've all probably forgot about).
Old 23rd October 2019
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by lornemalvo View Post
You are officially the old thread resuscitator today D.I.

(Not a bad thing at all. There have been some good threads through the years we've all probably forgot about).
I know. I am trying to stay motivated out here. These libraries don’t share too much info. It’s just “wait for your PRO statement” talk these days. Waiting three months for a variable paycheck is not fun.
Old 23rd October 2019
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
I know. I am trying to stay motivated out here. These libraries don’t share too much info. It’s just “wait for your PRO statement” talk these days. Waiting three months for a variable paycheck is not fun.
Yeah, it can be difficult maintaining the motivation for sure. You always seem like an energetic-roll-the-dice kinda dude tho so that's a big plus in this biz.

Keep rollin' that dice!
Old 23rd October 2019
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
I know. I am trying to stay motivated out here. These libraries don’t share too much info. It’s just “wait for your PRO statement” talk these days. Waiting three months for a variable paycheck is not fun.
To continue to beat this horse, just from my own perspective: I have maybe 15-20 tracks with JP, signed before they went exclusive. It was a hassle to submit to them, and nothing upfront, so I never submitted anything else after those first couple batches.

Those tracks are still getting used literally every day. Two of them have been used as main titles on regional cable sports shows and made a few grand. The rest are BGs on shows that get re-run over and over.

So ... for the small time investment 5 years ago, not bad.
Old 23rd October 2019
  #25
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Is Jingle Punks working out for you?
I HATE when the OP doesn’t loop back and tell us how things ended up!!

Anybody else working with jingle punks?
Old 23rd October 2019
  #26
I only have music with them exclusively now. I pulled my old non-exclusive stuff out years back. Surprising, some of those non-exclusive cues are still earning small royalties. The new stuff is only getting a few placements here and there.

I need more action from JP!
Old 31st October 2019
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post

I need more action from JP!
Does anyone even know how JP is functioning internally now that they are Anthem? I can remember there was A LOT of friction and culture shock between JP and Ole when Ole bought them... and I think the JP purchase eventually led to Robert Ott having to step down as CEO of Ole, and Ole basically having to be dissolved and then recreated as Anthem.

https://www.billboard.com/articles/b...terview-photos

https://musicrow.com/2018/11/ole-appoints-new-ceo/

I don't know if anyone remembers... but Ole bought MusicBox and they were kicking butt... so then Robert Ott bought Jingle Punks and dissolved MusicBox... which then started causing a ton of problems for Ole... so then they had to buy 5 Alarm to help them keep everything going... but it was too late, the JP iceberg had ripped too big of a hole in the Ole hull. So they basically burned it all to the ground, Ott stepped down and they got a new CEO and rebuilt everything from the ground up.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #28
Gear Maniac
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
I know. I am trying to stay motivated out here. These libraries don’t share too much info. It’s just “wait for your PRO statement” talk these days. Waiting three months for a variable paycheck is not fun.
Couldn't agree more. Longest 3 months in life especially this time of year when it's 4 months. Not sure what's happening with JP. Been sending exclusives for some time. Don't see much in the way of the newer stuff getting placed. Mostly repeats of the older non-exclusive stuff.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dblock View Post
Couldn't agree more. Longest 3 months in life especially this time of year when it's 4 months. Not sure what's happening with JP. Been sending exclusives for some time. Don't see much in the way of the newer stuff getting placed. Mostly repeats of the older non-exclusive stuff.
Yes, same thing!

Newer music seems to be going into a black hole.
Good thing there is a reversion clause.
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