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Who Is To Blame For This - Theaters or Movie Makers? Condenser Microphones
Old 21st March 2014
  #31
Movies are entertainment. Entertainment is an escape form truth and reality. Do people really expect the truth from entertainment?
Old 21st March 2014
  #32
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I dunno. Do people want pain from their entertainment?
Old 21st March 2014
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Not sure if you saw this or missed it. It's a sticky in the post production forum. this could be why nobody responded to you, because a lot of the information has already been covered in this and several other posts.

Standard mixing levels for movie theater, DVD, broadcast TV, commercials etc

And here is a good article about this topic.

Are Movies Getting Too Loud

Loud and louder | Film | The Guardian

Fader level 7 means that the movie audio will send a specified VOLTAGE through the theater's sound chain. Fader level 7 is the setting that assumes the movie audio was mixed/mastered under Dolby-specified calibrated conditions at the sound stage and editing house.

But since that isn't happening - movies are being mastered louder and louder - the calibrated settings at the playback end no longer provide comfortable volumes. Digital's peak-based full-scale metering is partly to blame for this.

We need to get back to VU/RMS-based metering before we have a generation of deaf movie-goers before they even reach 30 years of age.
Old 21st March 2014
  #34
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From reading this: Welcome Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

It seems dialnorm has gotten a pretty bad reputation. Essentially, it does for movie to commercial to movie to other program transitions what "soundcheck" does for music of disparate volume levels in iTunes. And the great equalizer(leveler) is dialogue, not RMS or avg sound level. But some seem to think it will degrade the sound quality of the movie. Those people are as misinformed about dialnorm as 99% of the population are about daylight slaving time. LOL
Old 21st March 2014
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_K_Man View Post
Fader level 7 means that the movie audio will send a specified VOLTAGE through the theater's sound chain. Fader level 7 is the setting that assumes the movie audio was mixed/mastered under Dolby-specified calibrated conditions at the sound stage and editing house.

But since that isn't happening - movies are being mastered louder and louder - the calibrated settings at the playback end no longer provide comfortable volumes. Digital's peak-based full-scale metering is partly to blame for this.

We need to get back to VU/RMS-based metering before we have a generation of deaf movie-goers before they even reach 30 years of age.

There are several things that are completely wrong about your post.

They are as follows...

Every stage that mixes films IS measured and calibrated to follow dolby specs. A lot of dubbing mixers do not even have a monitor volume control, just a dim button. And those that do have a monitor volume knob, the knob is usually removed by the studio. Once the console, monitors and speakers are calibrated, you cannot change them. The mixers can't change them. the producer/director can't change them. For all intents and purposes they are fixed and are not changeable.

Second, there is no "mastering" in movies. Movies cannot be "mastered" louder and louder since there is no "mastering" process similar to the music industry.

There is a mastering process, but they call it making a "Print Master" and it is COMPLETELY different than mastering music. The way a print master works is this...

After the film is completely mixed and signed off by the director. Two engineers FROM DOLBY come in with a bunch of equipment. They spend a couple of hours VERIFYING that the room's calibration is correct. Then they play the movie back through their dolby encoders to make a Dolby SR-D and a Dolby Magneto Optical print. The mixers HAVE to be present for this. If the test run shows the audio even coming close to clipping, especially for the Optical track, the mixers have to TURN DOWN the track at that point. Dolby SR is more forgiving since it is digital but still if it clips the SR-D encoder the mixers have to remix that spot to keep it from clipping.

Here's a little blurb about it from Chase Audio...

Chace Audio

You can find even more info about it on Dolby's website I'm sure.

Anyway... there is no brick wall limiting, there is no compressing. All the level adjustments when making a print master are done by the faders on the console.

Third, I do not know of a single dub stage that uses digital peak meters on the stage. Most use Dorrough 400 series meters, some (if mounted on the console) use 40 series (google them). Dorrough meters show RMS level and peak level simultaneously and are a much more accurate representation of loudness than even a VU meter.

All movie levels are NEVER measured in PEAK level. They all use Leq and have for a while. Google "Leq" to learn more.

Ultimately, with the dolby digital cinema decoder set to "7", what you are hearing in the theater is what the director heard on the dubstage. Period. It is what the director wanted. Period. There is no additional process after the fact that increases the level like there is with music. If anything, the print master process turns the level down in spots.
Old 21st March 2014
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_K_Man View Post
From reading this: Welcome Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

It seems dialnorm has gotten a pretty bad reputation. Essentially, it does for movie to commercial to movie to other program transitions what "soundcheck" does for music of disparate volume levels in iTunes. And the great equalizer(leveler) is dialogue, not RMS or avg sound level. But some seem to think it will degrade the sound quality of the movie. Those people are as misinformed about dialnorm as 99% of the population are about daylight slaving time. LOL
I don't think you understood dialnorm correctly... Dialnorm has a completely different role in professional audio post production compared to consumer electronics. You can't read an article about how consumer electronics use dialnorm metadata and think that applies across the board to all facets of audio post production. It doesn't.

Dialnorm has a set specific level for TV And that level is set by each individual TV network. Some networks want a dialnorm of -23dB, others want -27dB, and so on. The same show, if syndicated on two networks with different specs, will have to be mixed twice, once for each network (or more often than not, mixed once and then remixed from stems).

Films IN THE CINEMA, are not adjusted for dialnorm although there is usually a dolby meter on the stage and the mixers look at it occasionally. Usually the dialnorm for films that come off the stage are around -31dB. Some might be -29 or -30...others -32... but most are around -31dB. But films at -29dB are not rejected and sent back, nor are they turned down 2dB. If one film is -29dB, then that is how the director wanted it and that is how it stays for the cinema release.

It isn't until they make the DVD/Bluray/TV Broadcast/consumer version of the film that the dialnorm becomes a pain in the ass. All movies are remixed from the stems for DVD/Bluray/TV/Consumer use. Most of the time they have to be remixed so that the dialnorm is -27dB. This is the main job of certain post studios like Bluwave audio at Universal. The reason why directors hate it, is because it now limits the dynamic range of their movie. The louds are no longer as loud since most films are around -31dB, these post houses have to make the films 4dB louder overall to meet the -27dB requirement. So they end up turning down the loud spots and turning up the quiet spots. but again, they are not doing by slapping compressors and limiters on the master bus...they are doing this with finders on faders, on consoles, in calibrated rooms.

BluWave Audio | Filmmakers Destination – Universal

no film ever shown in cinemas goes through here... but those same films go through here before being made into DVDs. etc. Most people don't realize the audio mix they hear on a bluray or DVD IS NOT the same mix that you hear in the cinema.

Believe me when I tell you, this whole process is not as simple as you are trying to make it. It is very involved and there are multiple steps for the various deliverables and what happens for one deliverable doesn't necessarily happen for another.

In the end it is the director's decision to make something loud in a theater and nobody else's. It is their artistic choice. And if it feels loud in the cinema it is because the director wanted it like that and was hearing it like that on the dub stage.
Old 21st March 2014
  #37
Sounds like we need the Movie version of EBU-128

Almost sounds like we need a version of EBU.128 for movies and theatrical releases. Similar to the regulations for TV broadcast. That way you have dynamic range but have a good even RMS level for most things. -24lufs with -2 True peak in the US and -23lufs -1 for EBU version 2 i think.
I also think they weight dialogue a bit different as well. Seems reasonable. That way your not totally getting slammed all the time with up down up down kick your ears volume shifts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
I don't think you understood dialnorm correctly... Dialnorm has a completely different role in professional audio post production compared to consumer electronics. You can't read an article about how consumer electronics use dialnorm metadata and think that applies across the board to all facets of audio post production. It doesn't.

Dialnorm has a set specific level for TV And that level is set by each individual TV network. Some networks want a dialnorm of -23dB, others want -27dB, and so on. The same show, if syndicated on two networks with different specs, will have to be mixed twice, once for each network (or more often than not, mixed once and then remixed from stems).

Films IN THE CINEMA, are not adjusted for dialnorm although there is usually a dolby meter on the stage and the mixers look at it occasionally. Usually the dialnorm for films that come off the stage are around -31dB. Some might be -29 or -30...others -32... but most are around -31dB. But films at -29dB are not rejected and sent back, nor are they turned down 2dB. If one film is -29dB, then that is how the director wanted it and that is how it stays for the cinema release.

It isn't until they make the DVD/Bluray/TV Broadcast/consumer version of the film that the dialnorm becomes a pain in the ass. All movies are remixed from the stems for DVD/Bluray/TV/Consumer use. Most of the time they have to be remixed so that the dialnorm is -27dB. This is the main job of certain post studios like Bluwave audio at Universal. The reason why directors hate it, is because it now limits the dynamic range of their movie. The louds are no longer as loud since most films are around -31dB, these post houses have to make the films 4dB louder overall to meet the -27dB requirement. So they end up turning down the loud spots and turning up the quiet spots. but again, they are not doing by slapping compressors and limiters on the master bus...they are doing this with finders on faders, on consoles, in calibrated rooms.

BluWave Audio | Filmmakers Destination – Universal

no film ever shown in cinemas goes through here... but those same films go through here before being made into DVDs. etc. Most people don't realize the audio mix they hear on a bluray or DVD IS NOT the same mix that you hear in the cinema.

Believe me when I tell you, this whole process is not as simple as you are trying to make it. It is very involved and there are multiple steps for the various deliverables and what happens for one deliverable doesn't necessarily happen for another.

In the end it is the director's decision to make something loud in a theater and nobody else's. It is their artistic choice. And if it feels loud in the cinema it is because the director wanted it like that and was hearing it like that on the dub stage.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
I don't think you understood dialnorm correctly... Dialnorm has a completely different role in professional audio post production compared to consumer electronics. You can't read an article about how consumer electronics use dialnorm metadata and think that applies across the board to all facets of audio post production. It doesn't.

Dialnorm has a set specific level for TV And that level is set by each individual TV network. Some networks want a dialnorm of -23dB, others want -27dB, and so on. The same show, if syndicated on two networks with different specs, will have to be mixed twice, once for each network (or more often than not, mixed once and then remixed from stems).

Films IN THE CINEMA, are not adjusted for dialnorm although there is usually a dolby meter on the stage and the mixers look at it occasionally. Usually the dialnorm for films that come off the stage are around -31dB. Some might be -29 or -30...others -32... but most are around -31dB. But films at -29dB are not rejected and sent back, nor are they turned down 2dB. If one film is -29dB, then that is how the director wanted it and that is how it stays for the cinema release.

It isn't until they make the DVD/Bluray/TV Broadcast/consumer version of the film that the dialnorm becomes a pain in the ass. All movies are remixed from the stems for DVD/Bluray/TV/Consumer use. Most of the time they have to be remixed so that the dialnorm is -27dB. This is the main job of certain post studios like Bluwave audio at Universal. The reason why directors hate it, is because it now limits the dynamic range of their movie. The louds are no longer as loud since most films are around -31dB, these post houses have to make the films 4dB louder overall to meet the -27dB requirement. So they end up turning down the loud spots and turning up the quiet spots. but again, they are not doing by slapping compressors and limiters on the master bus...they are doing this with finders on faders, on consoles, in calibrated rooms.

BluWave Audio | Filmmakers Destination – Universal

no film ever shown in cinemas goes through here... but those same films go through here before being made into DVDs. etc. Most people don't realize the audio mix they hear on a bluray or DVD IS NOT the same mix that you hear in the cinema.

Believe me when I tell you, this whole process is not as simple as you are trying to make it. It is very involved and there are multiple steps for the various deliverables and what happens for one deliverable doesn't necessarily happen for another.

In the end it is the director's decision to make something loud in a theater and nobody else's. It is their artistic choice. And if it feels loud in the cinema it is because the director wanted it like that and was hearing it like that on the dub stage.

Thanks for explaining it to me. Mixing audio for a movie is very much different from mixing a record. Nice to know less compression and more fader operation is going into movie audio. I never said that the same LEVEL is applied across all formats of a release, I was just summarizing what dialnorm normalizes to - DIALOG, be it at -27, -30, or -10. I compared it to itunes soundcheck in that it attempts to normalize apparent loudness via some metric - in dialnorm's case: the spoken word. Soundcheck normalizes according to a different metric, but it's the same CONCEPT.


And it confirms even more that the CT lawmakers are going after the WRONG END of the cinematic chain. I have already written to my distric state senator about it.
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