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Score : Tempo calculation Modulation Plugins
Old 30th March 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 

Score : Tempo calculation

Hey,
For a very short animation I need to record something like 30 seconds of melody.

So i have the time - 30 seconds of music time (15 at the start and another 15 at the end) + the exact melody.
How can i calculate the Bpm i need to play\record if i want the melody exact with timing?

thank you
Old 31st March 2010
  #2
count how many beats total are in your melody. multiply that by 4. That is how fast the tempo should be.
Old 31st March 2010
  #3
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
count how many beats total are in your melody. multiply that by 4. That is how fast the tempo should be.
... bearing in mind that the downbeat = 0 and you'll need to leave time for a ringout.
Old 31st March 2010
  #4
unless he includes the ringout as part of the melody. heh
Old 31st March 2010
  #5
Gear Maniac
 

Or do what I do: Play the melody on a MIDI instrument into your sequencer at whatever tempo you like, then adjust the tempo until the time feels right.

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto
Old 31st March 2010
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Check out this website
Music to Picture (.... and a cool free Cue Calculator)
Download the excel file. I allows you to play around with tempo and timing.
Somewhat limiting, but can get you in the ballpark.
Back in the 90's I worked at Opcode Systems and supported a wonderful program called CUE. I could put in my hit points, tweek a bit and spit out a tempo map to Studio Vision. I can still use it with an OS9 emulator for Mac..
ML
Old 2nd April 2010
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Andy View Post
Assuming your music is in 4|4.
Nope... the meter has nothing to do with it.

the "multiply by 4" is because he has to put TWO 15 second snippets of music. One 15 sec piece at the front, one at the end. 15 seconds is 1/4 of a minute.

I guess I'm assuming that the melody he wrote is supposed to fit within that 15 seconds he specified and not one piece that spans the whole 30 seconds. Since he isn't telling us the timing of the video he is scoring to, just that he has to put 15 sec at the top and 15 sec at the end... I'm assuming there will be dead air (no music) in the middle of the picture for some unspecified amount of time.

So regardless of the meter, if you add up how many beats in the melody and that will give you the "beats per QUARTER minute" you need. You'll then need to multiply by 4 to find the beats per minute.

Try it. Doesn't matter if you are in 9/8, 4/4 or 15/16, or changing meters. You add up all the beats (doesn't matter if you are using an 8th note beat, 16th note beat or 1/4 note beat), and multiple by 4 and that will give you the beats per minute.

And just to clarify, if you are in 6/8 or 9/8, etc the "beat" is an 1/8th note, not a quarter note. If you are in 3/4, 7/4, 5/4, etc THEN the beat is a 1/4 note. But regardless of what the "value" of the beat is on paper, if the melody has to fit in a 15 second space, you count up the beats and multiply by 4.

If the melody was to last 30 seconds, you would count up the beats and then multiply by 2 instead of 4, since 30 seconds is half a minute.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #8
Gear Head
 

Thank you all!
it was very helpful.
Old 20th April 2010
  #9
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
And just to clarify, if you are in 6/8 or 9/8, etc the "beat" is an 1/8th note, not a quarter note. If you are in 3/4, 7/4, 5/4, etc THEN the beat is a 1/4 note. But regardless of what the "value" of the beat is on paper, if the melody has to fit in a 15 second space, you count up the beats and multiply by 4.
Careful here, the meter can make a difference, depending on how you define a beat. With compound meters (6/8 or 9/8 for example) a "beat" is usually 3/8th notes, so 6/8 is often two beats (not 6) to the bar and 9/8 is three beats (not 9). So with a quite quick 6/8 for example, if 20 beats were counted (in 15 seconds) the bpm would be 80 which would equate to 240 1/8th notes per minute.

Take another example, a waltz. A typical fast waltz is one beat per bar with a beat therefore lasting 3/4th notes. Fortunately, not a lot of music is written in 7/8, which is just as well!

G
Old 20th April 2010
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregorioM View Post
Careful here, the meter can make a difference, depending on how you define a beat. With compound meters (6/8 or 9/8 for example) a "beat" is usually 3/8th notes, so 6/8 is often two beats (not 6) to the bar and 9/8 is three beats (not 9). So with a quite quick 6/8 for example, if 20 beats were counted (in 15 seconds) the bpm would be 80 which would equate to 240 1/8th notes per minute.

Take another example, a waltz. A typical fast waltz is one beat per bar with a beat therefore lasting 3/4th notes. Fortunately, not a lot of music is written in 7/8, which is just as well!

G
No, no, no... being a drummer for the last 20+ years, and having a degree in music this is my biggest pet peeve.

If you write something in 9/8, but you don't feel the 8th note pulse, then it isn't really in 9/8. If the pulse is a dotted quarter (3/8th as you call it) then it is really 4/4 using triplets, NOT 9/8. if in 6/8 you only feel two beats, then you ARE NOT IN 6/8, you are in 2/4!!!!

Don't confuse BEATS per minute with QUARTER NOTES per minute.

Another example... if you write something in 7/8, but you phrase over the bar line in a "Sting"-like fashion. Then it really isn't 7/8, it's 7/4.

You have to realize that the 2/2, 4/4, 8/8, 16/16 are all the exact same length of time, the difference is where you put the emphasis of that time. We could take any pop song and write it as 2/2 or 16/16. That doesn't mean that it really is 2/2 or 16/16 because the pulse is not felt in half notes or sixteenth notes.

Likewise there are a lot of classical pieces that were written in meters that make it easier on the hand to write, not because it was really the correct representation of the feel. For example, anything in cut time... cut time is played and felt as 16th notes in 2/4. BUT!!! because it is much tougher on the hand to write 16th notes than 8th notes (and tougher on the eyes to read), people used to do cut time so they could write a group of four 8th notes tied together instead of four 16th notes. It made for writing out parts for your 80 piece orchestra by hand MUCH quicker!!! But is it "techncially" correct? No. And you need to understand that when scoring to picture and trying to find correct tempos. Meter really means nothing. the pulse is what is important.

Meter doesn't matter... you take the "pulse" of your melody, count up how many pulses their are, and divide that into the time you have to play your melody. AFTER that... then you can change the 8th note pulse to a dotted quarter and divide the tempo accordingly, and so on and so forth.

If you don't believe me... try it with a couple 15 second melodies in different meters. You'll see the most important thing is the pulse and how many pulses happen within the 15 seconds...regardless of whether they are 8th notes, Quarter notes, sixteen notes, etc. EVEN if your melody ends in the middle of a bar. Even if it ends on the fourth 8th note in the last measure... it doesn't matter you just add those four 8th notes to the total number of 8th notes in the melody. Try it... you'll see what I'm talking about...
Old 20th April 2010
  #11
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
No, no, no... being a drummer for the last 20+ years, and having a degree in music this is my biggest pet peeve.

If you write something in 9/8, but you don't feel the 8th note pulse, then it isn't really in 9/8. If the pulse is a dotted quarter (3/8th as you call it) then it is really 4/4 using triplets, NOT 9/8. if in 6/8 you only feel two beats, then you ARE NOT IN 6/8, you are in 2/4!!!!
I studied classical music at one of the most respected music conservertoires, was an orchestral musician for over a decade and have worked with many world class conductors and orchestras. From my professional experience, a degree is the beginning of understanding, not the end. Your degree does not appear to have included quite enough about classical music history and notation.

Many of the common time signatures evolved from various dances which had a particular feel. 6/8 exists as the closest representation of various types of dance and 2/4, exists to represents different dance (and march) types. The most obvious example of this is the Viennese Waltz, which has one beat in a bar but is written in 3/4, not 1/1.5! Correctly played, the second quarter note in a Viennese Waltz is advanced, ie. Not played exactly as written, because it's the feel that's important, not the exact notation. 6/8 exists to define a difference in feel from 2/4, even though 2/4 divided into triplets would be mathematically the same. I would have thought as a drummer you would appreciate the difference in feel.

BTW, a small oversight in your example above: 9/8 has three beats and is therefore similar to 3/4 divided into triplets, not 4/4 divided into triplets, which would require a time signature of 12/8.

The second problem with your argument is that in context of the OP it will not work. Given my previous example of 80 bpm in 6/8, there are 240 1/8th notes per minute but counting 2/4 instead of 6/8 would result in 160 1/8th notes per minute as 2/4 is widely accepted to be a duplet time signature by musicians and sequencers. You may find compound and complex time signatures confusing but they exist for a reason and the fact remains that they are an internationally accepted convention.

G
Old 20th April 2010
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregorioM View Post

Given my previous example of 80 bpm in 6/8, there are 240 1/8th notes per minute but counting 2/4 instead of 6/8 would result in 160 1/8th notes per minute as 2/4 is widely accepted to be a duplet time signature by musicians and sequencers.
First off... you still haven't tried my method have you? It's obvious you haven't.

Second, maybe back in the 1850s 2/4 was widely accepted as a duplet time signature... but since the 1920's TRIPLETS have been a widely accepted rhythmic pattern in music.

And you'd still have 240 8th note triplets per minute at 80 bpm in 2/4, now wouldn't you?

Man, your argument is really weak. you are looking at everything backwards. Think about it for a little while. Write something... write something really complex with changing time signature, then try to fit it in 15 seconds. You'll see what I'm talking about. I really don't have time to keep explaining it over and over again until you understand how this works.
Old 21st April 2010
  #13
Gear Addict
 

actually

Both the arguments above are at times true and at times not - theoretically they're both sound and both wrong - depending on context.

Bur they're both irrelevant to sequenced music because the strongest practical argument for using triplet metering with a quarter note click rather than 9/8...is that sequencers generally SUCK at 9/8 12/8 or 3/8. Especially Cubase...

Quantize values are thrown off to what you hear, and the 8th note click drives most session musicians insane, and the number of poor music editors who've had to labor over cutting 8th note clicks into something manageable...
Old 21st April 2010
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by londontown View Post
Both the arguments above are at times true and at times not - theoretically they're both sound and both wrong - depending on context.

OK... I'm about to start a mix, so let's see if I can do this quickly.

Let's say I have an 8 bar melody that is complex. Each bar is a new time signature. They are as follows...

| 9/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 2/4 | 5/4 | 13/16 | 4/4 |

The melody let's say ends right at the end of the eighth bar.

What does the tempo need to be to make this 8 bar complex melody fit perfectly into a 30 second commercial spot?

How would you go about calculating this? It's as easy as 5th grade math class....

Since there is a measure of 13/16. Convert all the time signatures to x/16. Then add up all the 16th notes. That would give you

18/16 | 14/16 | 18/16 | 14/16 | 8/16 | 20/16 | 13/16 | 16/16 |

Add up 18+14+18+14+8+20+13+16 = 121

So you have 121 sixteenth notes in 30 seconds. How many is that in one minute? 242 sixteenth notes per minute. Or 121 Eighth notes per minute. Or 60.5 Quarter notes per minute.

Try it in your sequencer. You'll see that if you set the tempo to 1/4note = 60.5, or 1/8note = 121, or 1/16note = 242, and then program in these meter changes, when you select across the 8 bars the selection will be EXACTLY 30 seconds.

It works ALL THE TIME (not sometimes), no exceptions. Why am I so sure of this? Because I've been composing, editing, and mixing 15's, 30's and 60's for TV commercials for the last 10 years almost daily.
Old 21st April 2010
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Andy View Post
However Time Signature does effect BPM and visa versa.
An example please?
Old 21st April 2010
  #16
Gear Addict
 

Let me rephrase. It will effect bpm in the case of needing to fit a particular time frame.

Say it's a 30 second spot at 120 bpm.

3|4 you get 20 bars
4|4 you get 15 bars - you can still easily create this but you will need to play with song structure.
5|4 you get .......

Well crap on me. The math work. I guess it doesn't change it. I know there is an instance where it does, but I can't remember what that instance is so ... End of Argument. You win! heh

PS: I'm deleting my former unproven statements.
Old 21st April 2010
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Fajita's Avatar
man, I want to rate this thread!


FOUR BARS uh STARS!!!




Etch is my new hero. I have scoured the internet for this info!

Thanks!
Old 21st April 2010
  #18
Gear Addict
 

Whatever happened to simply writing to picture? Works for me.
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