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clients consistently behind in payments
Old 10th December 2019
  #31
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
A society that believes that wealth is created through luck or privilege will eat itself alive.
Yes.

...And this is precisely why clients who don't pay (and the people who keep working for them anyway) will meet that same fate.
Old 10th December 2019
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Yes.

...And this is precisely why clients who don't pay (and the people who keep working for them anyway) will meet that same fate.
If you cannot think for yourself you’ll never be rich.

Why? You can never differentiate and are always following someone else.
Old 10th December 2019
  #33
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
If you cannot think for yourself you’ll never be rich.

Why? You can never differentiate and are always following someone else.
Yep...
...And 'twas ever thus.
.
Old 10th December 2019
  #34
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
If you cannot think for yourself you’ll never be rich.

Why? You can never differentiate and are always following someone else.
Seems to me that especially in Nashville, the whole thing is built around the idea of giving the labels and publishers "what we're looking for."

Last Saturday, I mixed FOH for an artist showcase that was exactly that -- everyone up there had only one goal, which was to give the machinery what it was looking for. It was all highly competent and professional and soulless and weirdly dead-behind-the-eyes. Really sad and disturbing to me.
Old 11th December 2019
  #35
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
A couple of other comments :
- Don't start a new contract until the late payments have been made for the previous one.
- Find new clients. Again, life is too short if this is causing huge stress in your life.
There are short-term solutions and long-term solutions.

The most important long-term solution is that you should never put more than 1/3rd of your business with a single client. It's wether they treat your poorly, take their business elsewhere, 'change direction', or even go out of business - they don't ruin you. You need to be diversified so you have freedom and air to deal with abusive clients.

I've seen too many times where people who have all eggs in one basket suffocate.

I did have a client who I had to tell I'm not taking any new bookings from them until they got caught up on old invoices.

You could buy the book '48 laws of power' - it has some good principles on how to win a variety of games. One of them is, that nobody cares about you. But you can win a lot of arguments if you focus on what is in it for them. You just have to figure out what that is.
Old 11th December 2019
  #36
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by allklier View Post
The most important long-term solution is that you should never put more than 1/3rd of your business with a single client.
^^^^^ YES!!! ^^^^^

This is quite true, and honestly, I'd diversity even more than that. At one time, I had 3 main clients, and about 30+ once a year or so clients. The big three were growing exponentially, and I had to keep turning down the other 30 or so. In reality, I was crazy insanely busy, cause I really only had enough time to do 2 of the 3 at once - but I was pulling it off by going past and over the boundry of common sense. Eventually the 30+ "got the message" and found other ways of getting their work done.

And then.....guess what?

Of the top 3.....

One died.
One essentially moved to Japan to work.
One got embroiled in a 10+ year long Hollywood divorce that left him a basket case and not working.

So almost instantly, I was for all intents and purposes out of biz. My biggest year ever was followed by my worst year ever, and the future was looking quite ugly. All because I favored a few big clients over a bunch of small clients.

But eventually I turned it into a really great thing that's allowed me financial security, allowed me to get back on track to do what I had initially set out to do a couple decades earlier with my career, and gave me the opportunity to do my career anywhere in the world that I might want to. A win!!

It was a gift actually, but man....in terms of my existing business at the time....Poof. Gone faster than I could even realize it.

Diversity is key.
Old 11th December 2019
  #37
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

You don't lose money on any deal you don't accept.

If you don't do business with thieves, you will not be stolen from.
Old 11th December 2019
  #38
Gear Head
 
Ovee's Avatar
 

"Terms and conditions" file is really essential in any kind of business. Once I've worked in fashion company, where they had their code of conduct file, and they have never started any work with anyone if there wasn't signed copy of this file.

Regarding to "Terms and conditions", I'm also currently working on my file with such details (one universal file which I can always send to sign before any work with any client) and I'm trying to not forgot about something important. What do you think is the most essential in the meaning of working terms? This year I've done some work with companies of people that I know, without professional contracts, but in upcoming weeks/months I'll probably work with "normal" clients and I'm trying to be prepared correctly for every aspect.
Old 11th December 2019
  #39
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovee View Post
Regarding to "Terms and conditions", I'm also currently working on my file with such details (one universal file which I can always send to sign before any work with any client) and I'm trying to not forgot about something important.
That would make a great thread. I'm going to start it.....

here you go : Terms and Conditions....for Composers.


Lets's compile ideas in an organized fashion!! Thanks for inspiring this....

Last edited by drBill; 11th December 2019 at 09:50 PM..
Old 11th December 2019
  #40
Gear Head
 
Ovee's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Lets's compile ideas in an organized fashion!! Thanks for inspiring this....
Considering my whole day today, the last thing I would expect from myself is to inspire someone haha. Great to hear that, and great idea!
Old 13th December 2019
  #41
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovee View Post
the last thing I would expect from myself is to inspire someone
You might be surprised at the persistence of this very thing in the history of humans (and what inspires them)!
.
Old 13th December 2019
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
You might be surprised at the persistence of this very thing in the history of humans (and what inspires them)!
.
Desire inspires.
Old 13th December 2019
  #43
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Desire inspires.
12ax7
Old 16th December 2019
  #44
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
This may be counter intuitive, but just swallow your pride and do what ever you need to do to keep the client happy.

This is a service business and you need to serve your clients and put them first. They will take care of you in the long run if you are loyal and deliver on time with minimal complaints.

Don't be prideful and greedy. Make the client your highest priority. The money will come at some point. Don't be greedy and prideful and ruin a relationship. Relationships are more important than money!!!
Of course, but that's not what we're talking about.

There is a point where the job itself requires $$ to make happen. I'm not complaining about not being paid for its own sake--I've dealt with late-paying clients for my whole career, and I do whatever I can to make them successful.

This is like on Shark Tank where someone's like 'I have a deal with McDonald's to make 1M apple pies, and it's going to bankrupt me.' Big jobs often require big financing--and big financing is difficult for little guys to get.
Old 16th December 2019
  #45
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrx View Post
I used to work for a guy whose approach was to call the accounts dept. every single day, politely, friendly 'hey just wanted to see if there are any updates' kinda thing. They got so sick of him they paid him. His theory was that if there's 20 people waiting to get paid you will end on top of the pile and they'll pay you just to get rid of you.
He said it worked but still took some time. Hope you'll get it resolved soon.
Yep--somebody above suggested something similar, so I went ahead and called them. There was quite the flurry of activity immediately--didn't resolve the entire problem, but it was a start.
Old 16th December 2019
  #46
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
In the holding-company ad agency world, it's 60 if you're lucky but 90 is normal. Their payables people don't pick up their phones. They don't return emails. They aren't nice. I'm sure they all go home and kick the dog and yell at their kids if not vice versa and then drink themselves to sleep.

Didn't used to be that way quite so much, but maybe 12 or so years ago BBDO Detroit lost their big car account, I forget which one. So Omnicom, the parent company, went into panic mode and decided to institute a minimum 60-day float across their entire network, dozens of ad agencies and PR firms. All the rest of the big networks saw that and did likewise. And here we are.
That's helpful to know--thank you! I haven't gotten any pushback re: my 30 day terms, while I've had to negotiate other points they focused in on (% late fees, for one).
Old 16th December 2019
  #47
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by allklier View Post
There are short-term solutions and long-term solutions.

The most important long-term solution is that you should never put more than 1/3rd of your business with a single client. It's wether they treat your poorly, take their business elsewhere, 'change direction', or even go out of business - they don't ruin you. You need to be diversified so you have freedom and air to deal with abusive clients.

I've seen too many times where people who have all eggs in one basket suffocate.

I did have a client who I had to tell I'm not taking any new bookings from them until they got caught up on old invoices.

You could buy the book '48 laws of power' - it has some good principles on how to win a variety of games. One of them is, that nobody cares about you. But you can win a lot of arguments if you focus on what is in it for them. You just have to figure out what that is.
Thanks! I'm actually reading that right now, but it's great to hear it recommended from someone on GS.

Yeah, the 1/3 in a single client is a gem. Yeah, I def have more eggs in one basket than I should have. It's all juggling. It's funny how problems don't go away--they just evolve.

What happened with the client you told you weren't taking new bookings until they're paid up? Ugh...I'm still waiting on 'up front' payments for jobs we finished in the summer.
Old 16th December 2019
  #48
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
That would make a great thread. I'm going to start it.....

here you go : Terms and Conditions....for Composers.


Lets's compile ideas in an organized fashion!! Thanks for inspiring this....
Great! Thanks drBill.

Years ago my attorney put together terms and conditions for me that I've been using ever since, but since this thread began, there's been suggestions from a few of you I've looked up to find other examples of in creative agency terms and conditions -- and happy to find them.

I'll def be implementing many of the suggestions here.

Thanks all!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #49
Lives for gear
 
everythinglouder's Avatar
Imagine being with Immediate, who were *fantastic,* having your music sold to BMG, and being consistently 2-4 weeks behind on every payment from them. BMG is a mess. Can't blame Jeff and Yoav because they're truly wonderful people. They earned their payout. But man, what a way for BMG to tell me "don't write us any more music."
Old 4 weeks ago
  #50
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frizzy View Post
Clients CONSISTENTLY Behind in Payments
[...]
Penalties AND discounts haven't worked -- they ignore them.
[...]
What would you do?
"CONSISTENTLY behind"?
...Well, if your clients are indeed CONSISTENTLY behind in payments, then consider this:
You are CONSISTENTLY being paid!
(There are worse problems you could have!)
Doing business "on time" may be reasonable (as long as you and your clients are being reasonable).
...On the other hand, actual non-payment is an altogether different matter (and will destroy any business).
.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #51
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
"CONSISTENTLY behind"?
...Well, if your clients are indeed CONSISTENTLY behind in payments, then consider this:
You are CONSISTENTLY being paid!
(There are worse problems you could have!)
Doing business "on time" can be okay (as long as you and your clients are being reasonable).
...On the other hand, actual non-payment is an altogether different matter (and will destroy any business).
.
All true, but the actual ups and downs of the workflow are enough to kill the business too. I mean, if I have five people working full time, and a bunch more working hourly for months before I see a dollar, it puts me in a tough spot. Just as I'd prefer to get paid for my work sooner, so would the people who work for me. The difference is that I'm willing to live off of applesauce in the meantime, but I'm not willing to ask others to do so--and there's no reason they should! So I can't get work done if I can't pay others timely.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #52
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frizzy View Post
All true, but the actual ups and downs of the workflow are enough to kill the business too. I mean, if I have five people working full time, and a bunch more working hourly for months before I see a dollar, it puts me in a tough spot. Just as I'd prefer to get paid for my work sooner, so would the people who work for me. The difference is that I'm willing to live off of applesauce in the meantime, but I'm not willing to ask others to do so--and there's no reason they should! So I can't get work done if I can't pay others timely.
...And but of course!

The 'ups & downs' of the 'real world' almost always remain perfectly "natural and organic", and part of almost anything on Earth (including ANY business).

If you can't figure out a way of dealing with this fact, then your business will almost certainly fail!
.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #53
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
...And but of course!

The 'ups & downs' of the 'real world' almost always remain perfectly "natural and organic", and part of almost anything on Earth (including ANY business).

If you can't figure out a way of dealing with this fact, then your business will almost certainly fail!
.
Precisely the reason why I started this thread.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #54
Lives for snowflakes
 
12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frizzy View Post
Precisely the reason why I started this thread.
Understood!
My point was that this sorta thing is kinda like being a landlord:

In the landlord business, one must deal with "Tenants & Toilets".

Its quite the same in any other business.
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