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Realistic string library (not VSL)
Old 5th October 2019
  #1
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Neutrino's Avatar
Realistic string library (not VSL)

Hi all,

I have been using VSL sample libraries for many years (mainly Opus 1/2 and Solo Strings) and liked them a lot in the beginning. However, I really find it hard to get them sound cinematic/realistic and that's mostly because they are all close-miced. I don't like the idea of re-creating the room with IRs in post. I can never make it sound similar to real string recorded in a real room.

To be honest I haven't closely followed the development of string libraries in recent years, but I see that there are libraries that include multiple mic positions for each sample. In particular I like the sound of EastWest Hollywood Strings.

For those of you who work work with real strings as well as libraries. What is your experience? Do you feel mic positions included in the EastWest Hollywood Strings are a good representation of what you use in real recording sound-wise? Are there other libraries that you prefer in this regard?

Looking forward to your opinions
Old 5th October 2019
  #2
Gear Addict
 

Hollywood Strings have a great sound, but they need a lot of work. The programming is very inconsistent, the naming of the patches confusing, and Play 6 still lacks a few very basic functionalities. The library is clearly laid out to be used with one track per articulation. If you want to use one track per instrument with keyswitches it's complicated.

For ease of use and a beautiful dark sound, Cinematic Studio Strings are hard to beat. For depth of articulation and bang for the bucks, Hollywood Strings are a great choice.
Old 6th October 2019
  #3
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Neutrino's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkeys View Post
If you want to use one track per instrument with keyswitches it's complicated.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? In the video demos I watched key switches seemed to work the same way as I'm used to: See e.g. here:
https://youtu.be/I2MvrPYrE74?t=172
Old 6th October 2019
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? In the video demos I watched key switches seemed to work the same way as I'm used to: See e.g. here:
https://youtu.be/I2MvrPYrE74?t=172
Hollywood Strings do have some very basic keyswitch patches, but they contain only very few articulations, and can not be changed in any way. If you want to set up your own keyswitches you need external software for that. It can not be done in Play.

Another problem with keyswitches for HS: for some of the patches, cc1 controls vibrato, and cc11 controls dynamcis. For other patches, cc1 controls dynamics. So, if you set up one track per instrument, if you keyswitch between these patches, cc1 will control vibrato for some articulations, and dynamics for others. Very tedious to work around, and it is, frankly, difficult to understand how EastWest could think that would be a good way to program a library. It's inconsistencies like these that make Hollywood Strings tedious to work with for me.
Old 6th October 2019
  #5
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In my opinion it’s best to mix libraries to achieve the results you want.

Also, it depends on what kind of string writing you’re aiming for. Hollywood Strings is good for a lush sound but I mainly go to that for just their cello section legato patches as they are the best I’ve heard. Their viola legatos are good but I’m not big on their violin legatos or any of their spics and staccs. So for trailer you may want to look elsewhere.

I use a mix of Hollywood Strings, Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Strings, and some solo patches from Cinesamples. When combined you can get some cool results!

https://soundcloud.com/sclunie/mysterious-awakenings

Here’s a cue of mine that utilises shorts and legato patches from all those mentioned. I don’t always have time to do a lot of programming so it’s good to have a mix of libraries that compliment each other well and so you can spend more time writing and arranging rather than mucking around with one library settings.

Also as goodkeys says - HS keyswitching can be quite tedious work.
Old 6th October 2019
  #6
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Neutrino's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkeys View Post
Hollywood Strings do have some very basic keyswitch patches, but they contain only very few articulations, and can not be changed in any way. If you want to set up your own keyswitches you need external software for that. It can not be done in Play.

Another problem with keyswitches for HS: for some of the patches, cc1 controls vibrato, and cc11 controls dynamcis. For other patches, cc1 controls dynamics. So, if you set up one track per instrument, if you keyswitch between these patches, cc1 will control vibrato for some articulations, and dynamics for others. Very tedious to work around, and it is, frankly, difficult to understand how EastWest could think that would be a good way to program a library. It's inconsistencies like these that make Hollywood Strings tedious to work with for me.
OK, I see. That sounds ancient In Cubase one can set up expression maps to change the MIDI channel. So there's probably a workaround, but of course it is not as easy as e.g. with Vienna Instruments.
Old 6th October 2019
  #7
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Neutrino's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz4 View Post
In my opinion it’s best to mix libraries to achieve the results you want.

Also, it depends on what kind of string writing you’re aiming for. Hollywood Strings is good for a lush sound but I mainly go to that for just their cello section legato patches as they are the best I’ve heard. Their viola legatos are good but I’m not big on their violin legatos or any of their spics and staccs. So for trailer you may want to look elsewhere.

I use a mix of Hollywood Strings, Spitfire, Cinematic Studio Strings, and some solo patches from Cinesamples. When combined you can get some cool results!

https://soundcloud.com/sclunie/mysterious-awakenings

Here’s a cue of mine that utilises shorts and legato patches from all those mentioned. I don’t always have time to do a lot of programming so it’s good to have a mix of libraries that compliment each other well and so you can spend more time writing and arranging rather than mucking around with one library settings.

Also as goodkeys says - HS keyswitching can be quite tedious work.
That's a great piece. Well done!
Right now I have an upcoming project where I will arrange songs for a musical with lots of orchestral accompaniments (I'm thinking Disney sound ). I rarely do purely instrumental orchestral pieces, but I'm a fan of Thomas Bergensen's work and I feel the HS library sounds a lot him
Old 6th October 2019
  #8
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Neutrino's Avatar
Cinematic Studio Strings

I had a listen to the demos of Cinematic Studio Strings. They have a great sound, but a very particular one. I reckon there were some ribbon mics involved in the recording. They sound rather dark and even to the point that makes me think they are playing con sordino. Not a bad thing per se. But maybe not what I´m looking for right now.
Ther interface seems to be really well designed, though.
Old 6th October 2019
  #9
Here for the gear
The upcoming BBC Symphony Orchestra by Spitfire does look and sound sweet:

https://www.spitfireaudio.com/shop/a...ony-orchestra/

You can't get only the strings, but I think it's the point of the library, to have everything in the same space.
Old 6th October 2019
  #10
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jazz4's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
That's a great piece. Well done!
Right now I have an upcoming project where I will arrange songs for a musical with lots of orchestral accompaniments (I'm thinking Disney sound ). I rarely do purely instrumental orchestral pieces, but I'm a fan of Thomas Bergensen's work and I feel the HS library sounds a lot him
Sounds great! I do a lot of similar stuff to that and remember the old Bergensen demos sounding amazing - however it takes a lot of programming to get it to sound like that.

Hollywood Strings is a good jumping off point.
Old 6th October 2019
  #11
Here for the gear
 

Hi Neutrino,

All of VSL's Synchron Series products are recorded in their Synchron Sound Stage and have multiple microphones so no need for IR for room simulation.
Old 7th October 2019
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by composingkeys View Post
Hi Neutrino,

All of VSL's Synchron Series products are recorded in their Synchron Sound Stage and have multiple microphones so no need for IR for room simulation.
But everything but piano sounds awful because they so aggressively denoised the recordings that the room is gone. More or less the releases are gone.
This is from someone who has recorded scores at Synchron and have the full (surround) Synchron Strings I library. They have mangled the production. The Synchron Strings are a waste of money. And you will need reverb to get anything useful out of them.

On the other hand, the pianos are good. They did not aggressively denoise so you can hear the room and the mic perspectives.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
But everything but piano sounds awful because they so aggressively denoised the recordings that the room is gone. More or less the releases are gone.
This is from someone who has recorded scores at Synchron and have the full (surround) Synchron Strings I library. They have mangled the production. The Synchron Strings are a waste of money. And you will need reverb to get anything useful out of them.

On the other hand, the pianos are good. They did not aggressively denoise so you can hear the room and the mic perspectives.
I agree with Pentagon, in general I have not had good results with any of the Vienna libraries, mostly because they sound close miced and you always have to add reverb to it (which never sounds right) rather than having the natural reverb recorded with the samples (which sounds way more natural). On a positive note, Vienna has taken the time (at least in past versions) to balance the volumes so you don't have volumes suddenly changing on you from articulation to articulation (or even sample to sample). On the other side of the spectrum you have Spitfire audio which IMHO has too much reverb baked in. I also am not a fan of their legato scripting, to my ears it doesn't sound as natural.

The library I use is Los Angeles Scoring Strings. I like the sound overall, their legato scripting is decent, and they have amazing customer support. They DO sound a bit close but I like the definition; I also talked to the creators who told me it was a careful blend of closer (but not close) section mics with closer Decca tree (and perhaps other mics, I don't remember their complete response, only that I was shocked they used decca config). I also love their divisi; taking the time to independently record each desk gives a more believable feel to the overall sound. I also tend to like the sound of Orchestral Tools' Berlin strings although I have never used them. OT's strongest library is their woodwinds though IMHO (which I own).

A lot of users seem to like Cinematic Studio Strings. I have no experience with them but I've heard the interface is easy to use. Their sound is okay to me but I believe their strongest library is the Cinematic Studio Brass (although I personally have no experience with it; I am impressed with the demos and will more than likely purchase it at some point).

Bearing in mind what I said about Spitfire audio, I have to admit I am intrigued as well about the BBC orchestra. The demos sound amazing.

Just my 2 cents...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
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Neutrino's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by session bass View Post
I agree with Pentagon, in general I have not had good results with any of the Vienna libraries, mostly because they sound close miced and you always have to add reverb to it (which never sounds right) rather than having the natural reverb recorded with the samples (which sounds way more natural). On a positive note, Vienna has taken the time (at least in past versions) to balance the volumes so you don't have volumes suddenly changing on you from articulation to articulation (or even sample to sample). On the other side of the spectrum you have Spitfire audio which IMHO has too much reverb baked in. I also am not a fan of their legato scripting, to my ears it doesn't sound as natural.

The library I use is Los Angeles Scoring Strings. I like the sound overall, their legato scripting is decent, and they have amazing customer support. They DO sound a bit close but I like the definition; I also talked to the creators who told me it was a careful blend of closer (but not close) section mics with closer Decca tree (and perhaps other mics, I don't remember their complete response, only that I was shocked they used decca config). I also love their divisi; taking the time to independently record each desk gives a more believable feel to the overall sound. I also tend to like the sound of Orchestral Tools' Berlin strings although I have never used them. OT's strongest library is their woodwinds though IMHO (which I own).

A lot of users seem to like Cinematic Studio Strings. I have no experience with them but I've heard the interface is easy to use. Their sound is okay to me but I believe their strongest library is the Cinematic Studio Brass (although I personally have no experience with it; I am impressed with the demos and will more than likely purchase it at some point).

Bearing in mind what I said about Spitfire audio, I have to admit I am intrigued as well about the BBC orchestra. The demos sound amazing.

Just my 2 cents...
Thanks for your comments! I was also looking into the BBC Orchestra, especially because of their variety of mic positions, but my impression is the strings in that library overall sound less "cinematic" or block-buster-like than their Symphonic Strings, but more "classical". Maybe it's a question of post-processing. Hard to say without actually using them...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
Thanks for your comments! I was also looking into the BBC Orchestra, especially because of their variety of mic positions, but my impression is the strings in that library overall sound less "cinematic" or block-buster-like than their Symphonic Strings, but more "classical". Maybe it's a question of post-processing. Hard to say without actually using them...
I guess it's a question of what "cinematic" sounds like to you. If you are looking for the Hans Zimmer cinematic sound, I recently did a track with LASS and treated the bass and cellos with a wee bit of saturation (Alan Meyerson does the same thing on the Batman scores). Brought out the sound of the bow on the strings and it did the trick, big, epic, growling bottom end
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
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If you want the Batman score sound you go for the Spitfire Symphonic. They are using the exact same room, mics, mic positions, and seating as those recordings. And some of the same players. Can't get any closer to having the same orchestra sound if you know how to mix the mics right. But also keep in mind that the Batman scores are close to 50% samples. And those samples were also recorded at AIR the same way. It's a bit recursive. You are doubling the orchestra that fits in that room -- each with a slightly different mix (because the samples were mixed too before being added to the real orchestra)

(And Alan Meyerson mixed 2 out of the 3 Batman scores. Al Clay mixed the first. So the sound differs depending on which score is referenced.)

Last edited by pentagon; 4 weeks ago at 08:49 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
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Neutrino's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
If you want the Batman score sound you go for the Spitfire Symphonic. They are using the exact same room, mics, mic positions, and seating as those recordings. And some of the same players. Can't get any closer to having the same orchestra sound if you know how to mix the mics right. But also keep on mind that the Batman scores are close to 50% samples. And those samples were also recorded at AIR the same way. It's a bit recursive. You are doubling the orchestra that fits in that room -- each with a slightly different mix (because the samples were mixed too before being added to the real orchestra)

(And Alan Meyerson mixed 2 out of the 3 Batman scores. Al Clay mixed the first. So the sound differs depending on which score is referenced.)
Yes, that´s the sound that I´m after right now. Hollywood Strings sound very similar to the Spitfire Symphonic Strings from what I hear from the Demos, but there´s a significant price difference (300,- for HS and 800,- for SSS). Also compared with the BBC Orchestra, which is a full Orchestra (750,- at preorder), the SSS appear quite expensive. Do you have any idea why this is? More articulations? Higher production cost?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
Hollywood Strings sound very similar to the Spitfire Symphonic Strings from what I hear from the Demos,
Not in the least.
Eastwest Studio is small compared to AIR Lyndhurst Hall and vastly differently acouswtically. And Shawn Murphy records and mics differently than Nick Wollage (who, IIRC was the first rec engineer on the SSS.) Plus you have to deal with the awful PLAY engine. The HS is much closer mic'd due to the size of the room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
but there´s a significant price difference (300,- for HS and 800,- for SSS). Also compared with the BBC Orchestra, which is a full Orchestra (750,- at preorder), the SSS appear quite expensive. Do you have any idea why this is? More articulations? Higher production cost?
Sales. Marketing. Possibly Maida Vale was a cheaper place than AIR and they didn't have to share profits with the studio for using them for marketing.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
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Dale Turner's Avatar
 

I haven't watched this yet, as it's "fresh," but this (concerning SPITFIRE) might answer some "string lib." questions:
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
If you want the Batman score sound you go for the Spitfire Symphonic. They are using the exact same room, mics, mic positions, and seating as those recordings. And some of the same players. Can't get any closer to having the same orchestra sound if you know how to mix the mics right. But also keep on mind that the Batman scores are close to 50% samples. And those samples were also recorded at AIR the same way. It's a bit recursive. You are doubling the orchestra that fits in that room -- each with a slightly different mix (because the samples were mixed too before being added to the real orchestra)

(And Alan Meyerson mixed 2 out of the 3 Batman scores. Al Clay mixed the first. So the sound differs depending on which score is referenced.)
Interesting, I did not know this. Thanks as always for chiming in Pentagon. Jake Jackson mixes Spitfire's libraries, yes? Although I tend to go for a more traditional orchestral sound I am intrigued on how you would get that sound (the Batman Dark Knight sound). I've heard they had overdubbed/multitracked the orchestra several times to get a bigger sound. I wonder if this could be achieved by double layering the Spitfire Symphonic library (or is there another library recorded at AIR)? Would layering the exact same library cause possible phasing issues? And do you have an opinion on Spitfire's scripting? I honestly don't have any personal experience with any of their products, just wondering what you thought of it. I haven't been blown away with the legato scripting but sometimes it's as much in the player as it is in the coding. That being said, the demos for the new BBC orchestra admittedly sound pretty spectacular

Last edited by session bass; 4 weeks ago at 03:44 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
Yes, that´s the sound that I´m after right now. Hollywood Strings sound very similar to the Spitfire Symphonic Strings from what I hear from the Demos, but there´s a significant price difference (300,- for HS and 800,- for SSS). Also compared with the BBC Orchestra, which is a full Orchestra (750,- at preorder), the SSS appear quite expensive. Do you have any idea why this is? More articulations? Higher production cost?
Hollywood Strings was recorded at East West and as Pentagon said it's a much smaller room. I'm going to check out Spitfire's strings again after what he said. I don't know if this helps but here's a track I did that's in the orchestral style you are talking about, I used LASS with a bit of Soundtoys Decapitator on the cellos/basses along with (RBass? I think) to enhance the low end at strategic spots. Hopefully this will give you an idea of possibilities with LASS

https://www.pond5.com/royalty-free-m...phantom-hero-1
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
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Jake has recorded some of the Spitfire. There have been a lot of engineers at this point but they use the same mic setup to keep consistent. Then they have the "mixed down" versions available in the library named per engineer. At this point Spitfire has been around a long time and the recording engineers aren't always available (because they have their own projects they are booked to.)
The overdubs aren't done to get a bigger sound as much as to get a bigger sound per instrumental line. So you kind of already do that by using full section sample instruments. Say only 32 vlns (18 vln1 and 14 vln2) can fit in AIR Hall. So you could have 9 vln1 playing the short string line and 7 vln2 playing the other short string harmony and then 9 vln1 playing the long legato melody and then 7 vln2 playing the counter melody long line. That's how you'd record it all for a section of score in 1 pass. Now on something like Batman, one pass would be done with all vln1 and all vln2 doing the short line. Then a second pass would be all the vlns doing the long line. So you have fuller coverage than what the Hall could hold in violins. So with sample libraries, you don't get that first option of breaking the group down (unless smaller sections were recorded) so you are always using the full section.

Now the fun part is HZ records split orchestra so it's all strings (and winds) at once and then Brass only in a separate session. So you can get more string players in the room (though they are all still sitting in their orchestral positions) when the brass aren't also occupying space (especially true for the number of basses used.) And an HZ orchestra has no violas which leaves more room for other string players.

As for phase issues, no. If the samples are randomized (round robin, etc) then it is "different" versions. And if there's no delay or they are playing different lines, once again no phase issues. It's like any other live double tracking.

Last edited by pentagon; 4 weeks ago at 04:15 AM.. Reason: viola commentary if people didn't realize
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Jake has recorded some of the Spitfire. There have been a lot of engineers at this point but they use the same mic setup to keep consistent. Then they have the "mixed down" versions available in the library named per engineer. At this point Spitfire has been around a long time and the recording engineers aren't always available (because they have their own projects they are booked to.)
The overdubs aren't done to get a bigger sound as much as to get a bigger sound per instrumental line. So you kind of already do that by using full section sample instruments. Say only 32 vlns (18 vln1 and 14 vln2) can fit in AIR Hall. So you could have 9 vln1 playing the short string line and 7 vln2 playing the other short string harmony and then 9 vln1 playing the long legato melody and then 7 vln2 playing the counter melody long line. That's how you'd record it all for a section of score in 1 pass. Now on something like Batman, one pass would be done with all vln1 and all vln2 doing the short line. Then a second pass would be all the vlns doing the long line. So you have fuller coverage than what the Hall could hold in violins. So with sample libraries, you don't get that first option of breaking the group down (unless smaller sections were recorded) so you are always using the full section.

Now the fun part is HZ records split orchestra so it's all strings (and winds) at once and then Brass only in a separate session. So you can get more string players in the room (though they are all still sitting in their orchestral positions) when the brass aren't also occupying space (especially true for the number of basses used.) And an HZ orchestra has no violas which leaves more room for other string players.

As for phase issues, no. If the samples are randomized (round robin, etc) then it is "different" versions. And if there's no delay or they are playing different lines, once again no phase issues. It's like any other live double tracking.
Interesting! I thought Jake was always "the guy" but it makes sense that he might not always be available, better paying gig, etc. I see what you mean about the overdubs, more instruments = thicker and beefier individual lines. I never thought of the limitation of the hall but that certainly makes sense. And with sample libraries added too!! No wonder it's such a massive sound...especially the basses. As a bassist myself I'm always working on the low end in my mixes. That's the one problem I see with a lot of libraries (even LASS): since the low end is not the prominent voice in the mix it often gets the leftovers, i.e., no legato. I didn't realize there weren't violas!! I'll have to pull out The Dark Knight and listen more closely.

Regarding phase issues, I see what you're saying about anything with round robin. But what about the legato lines? AFAIK there are no string libraries with round robin legato. My first thought would be to play the legato line twice with two distinctly separate performances (different attacks, releases, mod wheel, vibrato) to double a line (Which is what I do anyway with divisi). This (as opposed to freezing to audio twice using the same performance) would achieve doubling without phase issues. Am I correct in this assumption? I would think it would since different samples would be triggered (vibrato, different dynamic samples, entering/releasing at slightly different times, etc.). Am I on the right track here?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
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HZ never has violas. You can pick any score.
Lots of libraries have round robin legato strings. Spitfire does. (I know they have at least 5 samples per note because they have a cello note that has a bow tap on the 4th sample for one velocity layer on one note so you can hear that cycle each time you trigger the note through the cycle.)
But the phase issue still isn't there. It will be in-phase if you duplicate the same midi line. Not out of phase. This is easy enough to check/hear.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
HZ never has violas. You can pick any score.
Lots of libraries have round robin legato strings. Spitfire does. (I know they have at least 5 samples per note because they have a cello note that has a bow tap on the 4th sample for one velocity layer on one note so you can hear that cycle each time you trigger the note through the cycle.)
But the phase issue still isn't there. It will be in-phase if you duplicate the same midi line. Not out of phase. This is easy enough to check/hear.
No kidding, no violas! I'll have to check that out.

Didn't know current libraries had round robin legato. Makes me wonder if LASS does. I also wonder where it was recorded. Do you know?

"But the phase issue still isn't there. It will be in-phase if you duplicate the same midi line. Not out of phase. " Wow. Now I officially feel stupid lol. Of course! Duplicate the exact same line and it will be in phase and louder!! Duh...oh well. Thanks as always for your comments Pentagon
Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by session bass View Post
Makes me wonder if LASS does. I also wonder where it was recorded. Do you know?
Not for certain but I have a pretty good idea (and I could confirm it -- there are only a few orchestral contractors in Los Angeles.) When that was recorded, there were no union contracts for sampling players in LA, IIRC (this was a big deal because of the potential of musicians "recording themselves out of work".) So it would have been against musician union rules.
Which is why I won't mention the studio.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Not for certain but I have a pretty good idea (and I could confirm it -- there are only a few orchestral contractors in Los Angeles.) When that was recorded, there were no union contracts for sampling players in LA, IIRC (this was a big deal because of the potential of musicians "recording themselves out of work".) So it would have been against musician union rules.
Which is why I won't mention the studio.
Understood Thanks Pentagon
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
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You might want to look at the new Spitfire Audio library BBCSO.

It's official release date is tomorrow and it can come on an SSD at extra cost. This is the entire BBC orchestra recorded at Maida Vale studios as opposed to Air Studios (which is basically an old converted church).

It sounds from the demos pretty good. Depends what kind of work you do and what you need it for, as opposed to just a string library. If you're looking for something smaller sounding than full blown string sections, then you might want to look at Spitfire Audio's Chamber Strings library. That is the one I mostly use, although not exclusively.
When writing for TV, the bigger sounding sections of orchestras are not always appropriate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHyE-9G5_m8


https://soundcloud.com/spitfireaudio...end-luke-olney
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Cook View Post
This is the entire BBC orchestra recorded at Maida Vale studios as opposed to Air Studios (which is basically an old converted church).
Close. Not a church. AIR Studios was the community center for the church across the street (which George also considered when he moved AIR from Oxford Circus -- the original now being a Nike store.) Lyndhurst Hall was the major community room (with the pipe organ) and the priest's housing was next door. The land AIR sits on is not consecrated. (btw, "AIR" is an acronym)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
The land AIR sits on is not consecrated.
Didn't know that. Better load up with a ton of garlic next time I'm round there. You can never be too sure.
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