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Rhythm measurement management
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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Rhythm measurement management

https://youtu.be/TOgxUevhwh0
Hello everyone!
I was watching this video on you tube explaining how to sync the soundtrack to the movie.
at one point daniel james makes metric changes to bring down that point on the scene on the first beat.
I wonder how you can manage these metric changes?

by management of metric changes I mean the way in which to pass from one metric to another without being musically "forced, strange"
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundspace73 View Post
https://youtu.be/TOgxUevhwh0
Hello everyone!
I was watching this video on you tube explaining how to sync the soundtrack to the movie.
at one point daniel james makes metric changes to bring down that point on the scene on the first beat.
I wonder how you can manage these metric changes?

by management of metric changes I mean the way in which to pass from one metric to another without being musically "forced, strange"
sustains are your friend in this situation.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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not even hahaha
I just need some advice, I know it's a huge speech to be addressed and with many facets.
I have some ideas on how to handle the situation, but an extra suggestion is always convenient.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundspace73 View Post
not even hahaha
I just need some advice, I know it's a huge speech to be addressed and with many facets.
I have some ideas on how to handle the situation, but an extra suggestion is always convenient.
I'm not sure what else you are looking for short of one of us writing the scene for you.

The way most composers deal with adding odd meters in to hit timing marks without making it feel jerky and like a hiccup is to write the music to feel more rubato or expressivo. that way when you add a 9/8 bar and you hang on beat 7 (which would be beat "4" in normal 4/4) it just feels like the tempo slowed down a little bit, and when you have to write in a bar of 15/16 you hold or sustain a note a little shorter so it feels like the tempo is picking up.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Here is some interesting stuff that might help you. Look around the linked site.

FWIW, I studied with Don Sebesky [Arranging, Filmscoring] back in the day. He had "clickbooks". And computer programs for determining tempos that are friendly to action "hits" were coming into vogue at that time, too.

Actually scoring to picture involves a bit of math.

Will try to explain better later.


http://gettingthescore.com/index.php/glossary/

http://gettingthescore.com/index.php...art-ii-hit-it/
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post

Actually scoring to picture involves a bit of math.
I've developed a mobile app to find the four best tempos for a music cue.

https://ilovemedia.es/tempo-finder-for-film-scoring/
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
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however I was experimenting a little and 3/4 sometimes it can be very useful.
as regards the change from 5/4 to 4/4 an interesting solution could also be to solve with the use of FX or chrash revers in the last beat of 5/4
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaquelGC View Post
I've developed a mobile app to find the four best tempos for a music cue.

https://ilovemedia.es/tempo-finder-for-film-scoring/
Fantastic! Your app is like a pocket-sized version of the ancient (but amazing) "Q" software we used to use back in the 1980's.

An immediate purchase!

If you haven't done so already, you should start a "new product" thread over at the vi-control.net forums where many film composers hang out.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaquelGC View Post
I've developed a mobile app to find the four best tempos for a music cue.

https://ilovemedia.es/tempo-finder-for-film-scoring/
Super rad! Could've been using this for the past month... would've saved me a lot of heartache. Stupid cheesy comedy music.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
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I used to use Q (cue) also. Long time, huh? There’s a bunch of those little apps around that kind of do the same thing. And also most sequencers Will take care of stuff like that. I’m betting that Digital performer is still “the one” for filmscoring stuff.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
I used to use Q (cue) also. Long time, huh? There’s a bunch of those little apps around that kind of do the same thing. And also most sequencers Will take care of stuff like that. I’m betting that Digital performer is still “the one” for filmscoring stuff.
It is. In terms of sophisticated hit point / tempo calculations Performer is still way, way out in front of any of the other DAWs. Kind of makes me wish I still used it! I've been using Logic for maybe 25 years though, and I've gotten to the point where I just open the tempo list editor and manually build out tempo maps to do what I need. Using a combination of locked markers, locked MIDI events, and click tracks I can fudge my way to a solution most of the time, but it's not elegant from a UI standpoint.

So it's nice to see this little app that can give me a suggestion for a tempo that might hit a few points without me manually trying things out and hoping I'll find it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser View Post
It is. In terms of sophisticated hit point / tempo calculations Performer is still way, way out in front of any of the other DAWs. Kind of makes me wish I still used it! I've been using Logic for maybe 25 years though, and I've gotten to the point where I just open the tempo list editor and manually build out tempo maps to do what I need. Using a combination of locked markers, locked MIDI events, and click tracks I can fudge my way to a solution most of the time, but it's not elegant from a UI standpoint.

So it's nice to see this little app that can give me a suggestion for a tempo that might hit a few points without me manually trying things out and hoping I'll find it.
Absolutely.

I wonder if I can find those clickbook pages that Sebesky gave us. I'm sure I have them stashed away somewhere. Maybe he has them published on the web somewhere. I read somewhere that he recently donated his papers to some organization.

Here's what that guy Alain wrote on his webpage:

"TIMINGS PART II: HIT IT
Posted on October 11, 2008 at 11:39 am by Alain Mayrand / Uncategorized / 0
After the timing sheet is ready it is time to write the cue, but how does a composer make his music conform to those timings?

Here is how I do it, and it’s a pretty standard way.

First, I find the right musical idea for the scene along with what is the best tempo for the music. (“Tempo” is the speed of the music as expressed in metronome clicks per minute.)

Once I have my idea and my tempo I check my timing sheet to see what timings I need to hit in this cue and compare this with my click book page.

A click book page provides the composer with all timings in hundredths of a second for a given metronome marking. (example from my own click book I created in Excel format.)

From the timings on the click book I can see how close my current tempo matches the hits. Hard hits must be accurate between 8 hundredths of a second (00:00.08) and 125 hundredths (00:00.125).

If my current metronome marking is not close enough to my hits, then I look at tempo variations slightly above or below in the click book to find a tempo closer to the important timings.

(This all seems quite complicated, but it is a very efficient process.)

At this point the musical idea is chosen, the tempo is perfect and the click book is open for reference – all the is left is to write the cue!

There are a few other ways of timing music to image:

Cues can be written to be performed using free timing. This method has the conductor using a stop watch and visual clues provided on the film itself, but no click track. This takes a good conductor but can result in very expressive performances.

Improvising straight into the computer sequencer while watching the image, reacting to hits with or without a click track.

So there you go, this will hopefully give you an idea of how a composer times his music with your film.

Best,

Alain

PS: Timings can also be calculated without a click book. Here is the formula: ((tempo/60) x hit in seconds and hundredths ) +1."
Old 3 weeks ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser View Post

If you haven't done so already, you should start a "new product" thread over at the vi-control.net forums where many film composers hang out.
Thanks a lot for the idea, I'll do it!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #14
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In the era of nonlinear editing where the picture is never locked, I almost don't see the point.

I see so many action sequences in movies where it's clear there was an attempt at a post-score that probably nailed all the hits on the recording date, but then the cut changed eleven more times. So the poor editor had to take what was available and manufacture an "action rug" and paste in stabs and punctuations that make no attempt at landing anywhere that makes rhythmic sense.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
In the era of nonlinear editing where the picture is never locked, I almost don't see the point.

I see so many action sequences in movies where it's clear there was an attempt at a post-score that probably nailed all the hits on the recording date, but then the cut changed eleven more times. So the poor editor had to take what was available and manufacture an "action rug" and paste in stabs and punctuations that make no attempt at landing anywhere that makes rhythmic sense.
Well, with weekly episodes on the tv series that I've done they never give me unlocked picture, and never change picture after the spotting session. With only 7-10 days from spot to mix that would be unforgivably amateurish, and would cause absolute havoc with the DLG and SFX crews. So in that situation being able to save half an hour of faffing around looking for the right tempo for an action cue makes sense for me.

Even on the films I do they are pretty good about staying locked, and sometimes they cut action against the grid of a temp cue. When I get my first cut I ask where we sit on the spectrum from "latched" to "locked", and if there's anything they're still fiddling with I steer around those areas until later - but even this happens less than half of the time for me. In those situations I generally have more time than on a weekly series, so I can afford to faff around with Logic's tempo list editor until I find what I need, but this app will still come in handy to let me auto-match a series of four or five hit points since you can specify a range of tempi to search. I generally have a general tempo already in mind, or a sketch / feel already started, or there's already a tempo range suggested by the temp before I get down to laser-beaming hit points down to the frame. So the feature set of this app is a nice middle ground for me between fully manual tempo list shenanigans and fully square-one click-book activities.

And for $1.99 how can you go wrong?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlieclouser View Post
And for $1.99 how can you go wrong?
I dunno man....you can buy a doughnut for $1.99.....

Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I dunno man....you can buy a doughnut for $1.99.....

Would have to be some doughnut. : )
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Would have to be some doughnut. : )
If the seller is a he with a beard and lumberjack shirt or a she in 50's-60's clothes and it's in some areas of Brooklyn $1.99 is possibly a steal... for some vegan or gluten-free hipster @#$...



edit:

Menu

not sure about the wardrobe, but otherwise spot-on... $1.99 would be about half-price...

Related - making me feel old;

Old 3 weeks ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
If the seller is a he with a beard and lumberjack shirt or a she in 50's-60's clothes and it's in some areas of Brooklyn $1.99 is possibly a steal... for some vegan or gluten-free hipster @#$...



edit:

Menu

not sure about the wardrobe, but otherwise spot-on... $1.99 would be about half-price...

Related - making me feel old;

Hahaaa!! Exactly what I was thinking.

$1.99 for this app is beyond a steal.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
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I don't know if you're saying it's very expensive or just the opposite (my English is not so good and it's difficult for me to detect if there is irony).

I am the developer (a "she"). I've created this app because I am also a music composer and I had many headaches to calculate the tempo in some of my works (especially in music for animation which requires many sync points). I thought someone else might find it useful, and that's why I published it.

Edit: It was about a month of development, and potential buyers are very few (it is a very specific application). It will never compensate financially, I think it is quite cheap, but I don't care a lot, my main job is to do music.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaquelGC View Post
I don't know if you're saying it's very expensive or just the opposite (my English is not so good and it's difficult for me to detect if there is irony).

I am the developer (a "she"). I've created this app because I am also a music composer and I had many headaches to calculate the tempo in some of my works (especially in music for animation which requires many sync points). I thought someone else might find it useful, and that's why I published it.

Edit: It was about a month of development, and potential buyers are very few (it is a very specific application). It will never compensate financially, I think it is quite cheap, but I don't care a lot, my main job is to do music.
Sorry for the confusion Raquel. I'm saying it should cost at least $100. More probably.

Yes, small market indeed, but useful tool.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Sorry for the confusion Raquel. I'm saying it should cost at least $100. More probably.

Yes, small market indeed, but useful tool.
Thanks a lot! Glad you find it useful
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundspace73 View Post
[. . .] explaining how to sync the soundtrack to the movie. [. . .]
Professionally, I get that - if one is not in a position to make a different call - 'one has to do, what one has to do'.

But artistically, this circumstance seems soooooooooooo wrong! If you ever go to make your own movie, don't do this.


The human being inside of me is crying.

Ray H.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #24
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since I am in the early stages I am only looking for useful tips that could help me (even if in the end maybe my question was a bit trivial).
this does not mean that when I am building my soundtrack I will do it in a purely mechanical and functional way but obviously I will try to make it reflect my personal tastes putting my originality
Old 2 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Maniac
soundspace73 -

And to be certain - my comments were not aimed at you. They are hopefully breadcrumbs to lead filmmakers - who are in a position to make music a first-class citizen from the start - in a better direction.

A longer treatise is inappropriate here. However, one canonical example would be found in the application of preexisting 'famous' music - generally, one doesn't monkey much with 'Bobby Helms - Jingle Bell Rock'. . .they make the shot edits match the music. If one can tolerate the violence, Quentin Tarantino - or whoever he works with that makes the call - [I think] has good instincts in this direction. Similar instincts should apply to original music for film in most cases, or at least so I believe.


Best regards,

Ray H.
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