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Getting Rich From Streaming
Old 21st June 2019
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Getting Rich From Streaming

Just thought I would share my BMI day experience with fellow victims out there.

Among the 3 top streaming services appearing this BMI statement, there were over 25,000 downloads of episodes with my cues.

What did I earn from this? $2.47.

I'm buying diner for everyone on the forum!

I wonder if Katie Perry or Marc Anthony makes the same amount of money if their music appears in a TV stream. I don't think so. IMO all of the money is going to people with "Names" and we are getting sh*t on every day.
Old 21st June 2019
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
Progger's Avatar
Ouch... Yep, that seems about right. The streaming model is clearly great for consumers, and the people at the very top are making it work by taking the vast majority of the revenue that subscribers pay. In music, at least, the vast majority of people making the vast majority of the content are making next to nothing. I very much hope that the AFM, NARAS, and the PROs start to put their money where their mouths are and seriously advocate for policies that help the musician middle class.
Old 21st June 2019
  #3
Streaming royalties:

I made 0.01 from BMI writer’s share today.

I made 2.20 from ASCAP publisher’s share today.

So not too shabby after all.
Old 21st June 2019
  #4
I have a small number (under 20k altogether) of "Youtube Free" audio plays that paid more than 100k+ of BI streams on Hulu. (Both payments were peanuts.) Who's listening to production music on Youtube, though?
Old 21st June 2019
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Scott View Post
Just thought I would share my BMI day experience with fellow victims out there.

Among the 3 top streaming services appearing this BMI statement, there were over 25,000 downloads of episodes with my cues.

What did I earn from this? $2.47.

I'm buying diner for everyone on the forum!

I wonder if Katie Perry or Marc Anthony makes the same amount of money if their music appears in a TV stream. I don't think so. IMO all of the money is going to people with "Names" and we are getting sh*t on every day.
Well comparatively speaking... how much money would you get from BMI of your music from a cable network show that only had 25,000 viewers in the Nielsen ratings?

I would venture to guess your music used in a TV show that had only 25,000 viewers would pay you less than $2.47 for that airing, no?

Here are the worst rated network shows for the 2017-18 season...

https://www.thewrap.com/12-lowest-ra...season-photos/

The Rating number is a percentage based on total viewers in the US for that season. For 2017-18 there were 304.5 million people/viewers in the US. A Nielson rating of 1.0 means that 3 million people watched the show.

The WORST rated shows on TV start at around a 0.8 (around 2.4 mil viewers) and go down to 0.4 (1.2 mil viewers).

Here are networks ranked by viewership...

https://www.thewrap.com/cable-channe...wers-fox-news/

This is total viewers within the timespan listed on average per day. So in primetime, 25,000 views lands between CNN En Espanol and Universal Kids Channel... for a full day of viewing it falls between Fox and ESPN Deportes and Cino Latino.

How much in royalties would you get if you had your music placed in one episode on Cino Latino channel or FOX Deportes?

Anyway... I'm not saying streaming royalties are great... but you have to have perspective. 25,000 views is literally nothing in the TV and PRO world. That is around what most local TV and Radio stations get (10,000 to 25,000 viewers).

Conversely if you look at some of the biggest shows on TV, they get a total of around 20 to 30 mil viewers for a single episode. how much does a background library music placement in one of those shows yield from ASCAP or BMI? roughly few hundred dollars... So when you get 20 to 30 mil streams for a show that has one of your cues in it... you should be making about the same money. I don't think it actually works out that way, and it does seem like the PROs start to pay less the more streams you get. But it would be interested to hear from Dr Bill or Fulford about this because I know they see a lot of streaming listed on their royalty statements.

Also as far as I know, streaming services like Netflix are not considered broadcasters. They are considered VOD services since you request what content you want to watch, a preset playlist of content isn't forced on you like it is with a broadcaster. So you aren't really getting paid broadcast public performance royalty rates... you are getting paid mechanical royalty rates which are very low... which is why the Music Modernization Act focuses so heavily on digital mechanical streaming royalties and who will collect them and then pay them out.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #6
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Also as far as I know, streaming services like Netflix are not considered broadcasters.
They (Netflix, etc.) are listed on my BMI statements as :

U.S. Performances - Internet Audiovisual



just as Animal Planet, MSNBC, History Channel, etc. are listed as :

U.S. Performances - Cable Television


Which means (to me) that they are in fact collecting performance royalties from Netflix, etc..


Also, as far as BMI goes, their reporting of Netflix (in particular) are incredibly nebulous. You have literally NO IDEA how many streams have been viewed. They show "1" per quarter, per show.

Thanks BMI.

Other streamers such as Hulu or Amazon show more realistic numbers, but again, they are so abysmally low, that I find it virtually impossible that that few people are viewing in a QUARTER of 24/7 viewing opportunity.

The absolutely LOWEST neilson rated cable TV show for one showing in the middle of the night is going to bring in close to 100X's what a normal Netflix / Amazon / Hulu QUARTER of of 24/7 viewing opportunity will. And yeah, I've done the math.

The hubris and opaque way that BMI deals with this stuff is border-lining criminal.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #7
Really? 100X more? so the same show that made $2.47 in streaming from 25,000 views, with one airing on the FOX Deportes or Cino Latino would be $247? I don't see that at all on my statements, not anything near that for those types of uses. These airings on these types of channels (if the PRO even pays on them) are like $0.02, to $0.50.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Amber's Avatar
 

Not sure if it compares to US, but in UK, streaming BBC (the BBC iPlayer), my last quarter was about £400 from those streams. But to compare, those shows which were on BBC1 and BBC2 on TV here were around £4,400 in PRS for the same quarter.

Don't think it's a PRS being better thing either, those shows have primetime rates. And in the same way, I see lots on my statement from ASCAP trickling in where it's £80 for Jimmy Fallon, £110 for James Corden etc. Then 0.03p for something else.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #9
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Really? 100X more? so the same show that made $2.47 in streaming from 25,000 views, with one airing on the FOX Deportes or Cino Latino would be $247? I don't see that at all on my statements, not anything near that for those types of uses. These airings on these types of channels (if the PRO even pays on them) are like $0.02, to $0.50.
Yeah, except that your made up numbers are wrong. Streaming doesn't make $2.47. More like 25,000 views = $0.12. So multiply X 100 for a play on a crappy cable show : $12.00. Pretty close to what I'm seeing re: streaming vs. cable. To be fair it's probably slightly better than 100X's, but I like round numbers. Probably 80-90 X's. Not claiming it's exact or perfect - just that it's pretty close.

BTW, I ballparked it on the 100X's comment, but it's pretty dam close to what I'm seeing overall. A more scientific study that I did on some disney channel movies I had songs in that went to "On Demand" showed a consistent 96% decrease on back to back quarters over 2 years, similar films and placements, over the course of that time period. Consistent $400 placements ended up paying out about $8 or so. 2 years on those shows is more than enough to equivocate the data I needed. I ended up with enough data to show me that streaming will kill us. At least it will Kill BMI writers. These were on 5-8 films that had been running for a decade that are kids classics that get constant play over the last 15 years - shows that had been a cash cow for me. My conclusions echo what other BMI writers I've talhked to have said.


IME - the only possible rainbow is that if there eventually end up being 50X's the streamers worldwide, we may possibly - POSSIBLY - make the same amount as a crappy cable station. Yahoo!

Last edited by drBill; 22nd June 2019 at 03:45 AM..
Old 22nd June 2019
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Yeah, except that your made up numbers are wrong. Streaming doesn't make $2.47. More like 10,000 views = $0.04. So multiply X 100 for a play on a crappy cable show : $4.00. Pretty close to what I'm seeing. Not claiming it's exact or perfect - just that it's pretty close.

BTW, I ballparked it on the 100X's comment, but it's pretty dam close to what I'm seeing overall. A more scientific study that I did on some disney channel movies I had songs in that went to "On Demand" showed a consistent 96% decrease on back to back quarters over 2 years, similar films and placements, over the course of that time period. 2 years on those shows is more than enough to equivocate the data I needed. I ended up with enough data to show me that streaming will kill us. At least it will Kill BMI writers. These were on films that had been running for a decade that are kids classics that get constant play over the last 15 years - shows that had been a cash cow for me. My conclusions echo what other BMI writers I've talked to have said.
They aren’t my numbers... they are the OP’s numbers from his BMI statement. Read the first post in this thread again.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #11
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
They aren’t my numbers... they are the OP’s numbers from his BMI statement. Read the first post in this thread again.
Gotcha. Not enough information and too many question marks. If he's getting that much, he's doing a lot better than I am. What is a "download". How many cues per episode? Length of play, type of play, Etc, etc.. I'm just going from my personal numbers "per placement" which I have confirmed, verified, and analyzed, and they are bleak.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post

Also, as far as BMI goes, their reporting of Netflix (in particular) are incredibly nebulous. You have literally NO IDEA how many streams have been viewed. They show "1" per quarter, per show.

Thanks BMI.

The hubris and opaque way that BMI deals with this stuff is border-lining criminal.
This is a Netflix issue. I'm not sure how they get away with it but they are super, super private with their streaming data. I don't think they're reporting streaming numbers to anyone.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #13
Gear Nut
 

You guys should check out some of the streaming royalty numbers on Music Library Report. You don't have to sign up to read that part.

I saw there's someone saying they had 16,893 streams of a 37s cue on an episode on Amazon, and they got $0.56 for that.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #14
Gear Nut
 

Another guy reports that he had 2,113,904 streams on Amazon (I think for an NFL thing) and received $8.35. Says the same cue made $370 in one single performance on Fox.

It's sickening. I've seen my streaming royalties and I've heard the stories of big production music composers and their complaints.

Here's how production music is killed:

1. Subscription model takes over for music licensing for the royalty free market (so people making videos for Youtube don't even pay $50 anymore for a license)
2. Streaming increases over regular TV, and back end royalties follow drBill's stats of a 96% decrease.

We can talk about adapting as much as we like, but you can't get blood out of a stone.
Old 22nd June 2019
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Being the OP, let me be more clear.

Those VOD streams were all comprised of paid downloads, like Amazon VOD, Hulu VOD, Paid You Tube VOD, etc.

IMO, I still it's perverted how little money we make on streaming VOD service, no matter what the Nielson ratings say.

When the episodes are aired on national TV, and I receive about 7-15 bucks for a 20 - 30 second cue, it is repeated about 25 times in a month and I am seeing the same amount, every play. Granted, this is far from Network but most of my shows are on Cable. It just makes no sense that when the episodes are purchased for down load, I make less than a penny on my art and intellectual property.

I still stand by my believe that If Katy Perry had a 10 second cue on TV, and got the SAME payments we got, she would have a team of lawyers in the BMI headquarters. The problem is that every single dime goes to big names and we are just get treated like crap in this game.
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