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COMPOSERS: DO NOT USE SPLICE [Public Service Announcement]
Old 25th June 2019
  #241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevon91 View Post
Oh ok, thanks! I know about the sound recording/master copyright, but didn't really think the master recording of a drum performance would be considered copyrightable.

So the master would be considered copyrightable, but hypothetically if you recreate a drum sequence of a master recording, then would that be considered a new master/sound recording copyright that could be registered?
If you use an already copyrighted master recording of a drum beat, chop it up and do all sorts of wacky stuff to it, it becomes a derivative work/master of the original and you need a license/permission from the original owner to do that.

If you recreate it from scratch on your own, then it is your own master and you can copyright it as a new original master because you are not using anything from anyone else's recording.

This is where the EULA of sample/loop libraries becomes very important reading the fine print....

Most VIs, Loops, and Samples DO NOT allow you to use their master recordings to make new master recordings that will be used as VIs, Loops or samples. They only allow the use of their mastering recordings to make new masters of original musical compositions.

Some sounds, especially from older units like an old Roland 808, are completely a buyout. You can do whatever you want with the sounds as much as you want. You can use an original Roland 808 to make your own original master samples that you could sell retail/online... but you can't use someone else's masters of their 808 to make your own 808 sample library for retail sale.

So if I came out with "Etch's ultimate 808 drum package" that included all original drum loop patterns and one shots I recorded straight out of my vintage 808... then I can sell that to as many people as I want. It would then be illegal for you to buy it, manipulate the loops and one shot samples a little bit and then release "Jevon91's Super Ultimate 808 Drum Package". But if you went out and bought a vintage 808 yourself, and recorded all the same sounds I had, and programmed all the same beats I did... you could then release it because you aren't using MY recordings, you are using your own.
Old 26th June 2019
  #242
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Amber's Avatar
 

Interesting development, Universal library are doing a competition where you use Splice samples to win money and get tracks in their library.
Old 26th June 2019
  #243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
Interesting development, Universal library are doing a competition where you use Splice samples to win money and get tracks in their library.
Hm, on the Splice contest page it calls the $200 fee an "advance," but in the brief / information sheet it says that the upfront payment is non-recoupable (with a 25% sync split). Which is it, I wonder.
Old 26th June 2019
  #244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
Interesting development, Universal library are doing a competition where you use Splice samples to win money and get tracks in their library.
Thank you for the update!

I will have a very busy weekend!
Old 27th June 2019
  #245
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Amber's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpacaRoom View Post
Hm, on the Splice contest page it calls the $200 fee an "advance," but in the brief / information sheet it says that the upfront payment is non-recoupable (with a 25% sync split). Which is it, I wonder.
In UK, Universal do part advance and part which is a production fee which isn't recoupable. It's £200/£250 (£450 total). I can't remember which is which however. That sync split (25% to writer) is standard for the deal here. Can't say about the US (Firstcom, Killer Tracks)

Last edited by Amber; 27th June 2019 at 04:28 AM..
Old 27th June 2019
  #246
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
Interesting development, Universal library are doing a competition where you use Splice samples to win money and get tracks in their library.
Thanks for the heads up Amber!
Old 27th June 2019
  #247
Gear Addict
 
Volt9's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
Interesting development, Universal library are doing a competition where you use Splice samples to win money and get tracks in their library.
NO 3RD PARTY SAMPLES - but of course you can use as much splice as you want!
Old 30th June 2019
  #248
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
If you use an already copyrighted master recording of a drum beat, chop it up and do all sorts of wacky stuff to it, it becomes a derivative work/master of the original and you need a license/permission from the original owner to do that.

If you recreate it from scratch on your own, then it is your own master and you can copyright it as a new original master because you are not using anything from anyone else's recording.

This is where the EULA of sample/loop libraries becomes very important reading the fine print....

Most VIs, Loops, and Samples DO NOT allow you to use their master recordings to make new master recordings that will be used as VIs, Loops or samples. They only allow the use of their mastering recordings to make new masters of original musical compositions.

Some sounds, especially from older units like an old Roland 808, are completely a buyout. You can do whatever you want with the sounds as much as you want. You can use an original Roland 808 to make your own original master samples that you could sell retail/online... but you can't use someone else's masters of their 808 to make your own 808 sample library for retail sale.

So if I came out with "Etch's ultimate 808 drum package" that included all original drum loop patterns and one shots I recorded straight out of my vintage 808... then I can sell that to as many people as I want. It would then be illegal for you to buy it, manipulate the loops and one shot samples a little bit and then release "Jevon91's Super Ultimate 808 Drum Package". But if you went out and bought a vintage 808 yourself, and recorded all the same sounds I had, and programmed all the same beats I did... you could then release it because you aren't using MY recordings, you are using your own.
Ok, thanks! Thought i understood copyright law but things throw me for a loop every now and then lol
Old 3rd July 2019
  #249
Gear Head
 

So to sum things up I am curious:

1.) If we make a song for sync licensing that gets used in a TV show or movie or commercial, and this song has a guitar sample from Splice, are we OK to send it out?

2.) I'm sending a song right now that has a splice sample. The licencor is asking if the song contains samples or interpolations from another artist's copyrighted song(s). (example: you sampled portions of Flo Rida's latest single) AND if the song contains samples from a buyout package. (example: East West, VSL, Sampletank etc.). Do I need to say yes to either of these things?
Old 3rd July 2019
  #250
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicisfun View Post
So to sum things up I am curious:

1.) If we make a song for sync licensing that gets used in a TV show or movie or commercial, and this song has a guitar sample from Splice, are we OK to send it out?

2.) I'm sending a song right now that has a splice sample. The licencor is asking if the song contains samples or interpolations from another artist's copyrighted song(s). (example: you sampled portions of Flo Rida's latest single) AND if the song contains samples from a buyout package. (example: East West, VSL, Sampletank etc.). Do I need to say yes to either of these things?
Sounds like a crucial situation.
Old 3rd July 2019
  #251
Gear Addict
 
Volt9's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Sounds like a crucial situation.
Haha,
Old 3rd July 2019
  #252
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicisfun View Post
So to sum things up I am curious:

1.) If we make a song for sync licensing that gets used in a TV show or movie or commercial, and this song has a guitar sample from Splice, are we OK to send it out?

2.) I'm sending a song right now that has a splice sample. The licencor is asking if the song contains samples or interpolations from another artist's copyrighted song(s). (example: you sampled portions of Flo Rida's latest single) AND if the song contains samples from a buyout package. (example: East West, VSL, Sampletank etc.). Do I need to say yes to either of these things?
Yes, you need to say yes that your work contains samples from a Splice. And since it is splice, it would also be good to list the actual creator that made the sample because splice is not really a sample library production company, they are an online marketplace for sample creators. Even their "Splice Sounds" are not really splice, they are still from 3rd parties... they are very similar to a walmart for samples.

As to your 1st question... if you are using a guitar sample from splice, is it ok...

and the answer really is, it depends. How many other guitar parts are in the song? Is the splice loop in the foreground or in the background? Is the splice loop melodic or is it a rhythmic harmony part (i.e. strumming chords)? What other instruments are playing and how many layers does each of those instruments have? Do you have to provide individual instrument mixed stems along with the full mix? And so on...
Old 4th July 2019
  #253
So the sound packs on Splice are not exclusive to Splice? I see sound packs on Spice for sale on other sites as well. So if these sound packs are distriuted on multiple sites ane they are supposedly royalty free, who would be liable in the case of a copyright infringement suit? The composer is a 16 year old kid with no money and no net worth. A weak target for a lawsuit. So who would be coughin' up the dough?

How much did Lil Nas X pay for "Old Town Road"? The beat was purchased on Beatstars, and it sampled an old Nine Inch Nails song.

Old 4th July 2019
  #254
Gear Maniac
 
DRAZERS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
So the sound packs on Splice are not exclusive to Splice? I see sound packs on Spice for sale on other sites as well. So if these sound packs are distriuted on multiple sites ane they are supposedly royalty free, who would be liable in the case of a copyright infringement suit? The composer is a 16 year old kid with no money and no net worth. A weak target for a lawsuit. So who would be coughin' up the dough?

How much did Lil Nas X pay for "Old Town Road"? The beat was purchased on Beatstars, and it sampled an old Nine Inch Nails song.

Lil Nas X paid $30 for the beat produced by YoungKio. Sample wasn’t cleared and sure NIN could nail them, but it looks like they squared it out once it took off. NIN is credited for both, songwriting and production.
Old 4th July 2019
  #255
Lives for gear
 

Jinglepunks are starting to sell sample packs through Splice. Gotta hand it to them, they're forward thinking!!
Old 8th July 2019
  #256
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRAZERS View Post
Lil Nas X paid $30 for the beat produced by YoungKio. Sample wasn’t cleared and sure NIN could nail them, but it looks like they squared it out once it took off. NIN is credited for both, songwriting and production.
NIN did nail them. If you read about the song now "Young Kio" is not listed at all. Trent and Atticus are listed as the cowriters and co-producers of the track with Lil Nas X.

NIN most likely threatened a lawsuit... the record label gave NIN a ton of money and all the credit and basically erased Young Kio's frivolous and illegal participation in the song.

Anyway... this is a good parallel example of what can happen. What if Young Kio put his beat up on Splice. Maybe he did and we just don't know. And then someone downloaded it and used it as a track for a music library... now that library is on the hook for a lot of money to NIN.
Old 8th July 2019
  #257
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFulford View Post
Jinglepunks are starting to sell sample packs through Splice. Gotta hand it to them, they're forward thinking!!
Yes, I saw their packs. I might download some sounds and make some new beats for them.
Old 8th July 2019
  #258
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
NIN did nail them. If you read about the song now "Young Kio" is not listed at all. Trent and Atticus are listed as the cowriters and co-producers of the track with Lil Nas X.

NIN most likely threatened a lawsuit... the record label gave NIN a ton of money and all the credit and basically erased Young Kio's frivolous and illegal participation in the song.

Anyway... this is a good parallel example of what can happen. What if Young Kio put his beat up on Splice. Maybe he did and we just don't know. And then someone downloaded it and used it as a track for a music library... now that library is on the hook for a lot of money to NIN.
Young Kio is listed as a writer in the ASCAP/BMI database.
Old 9th July 2019
  #259
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnFulford View Post
Young Kio is listed as a writer in the ASCAP/BMI database.
I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually falls off that. You know how slow ASCAP and BMI are... it could take them a year or more to remove him.
Old 9th July 2019
  #260
Lives for gear
You're creating sample libraries for some online sonic flea-market?

Seriously, what do you expect from these people?

It's like someone going the salvation army for lunch and sending back you're Campbell's soup because the chef added too much water.

Stop quibbling over pennies, NEVER do "Work-for-hire" I.E "We-F$%k-You" gigs, Never do jobs with no front end pay, if you are trying to raise your profile, it's better to do free cues for your local film school (Never give a business free music... but a student is OK...But make him submit a cue sheet in case it's ever broadcast)

STAY AWAY from that online scam libraries, you won't get a fraction of what you are worth and you are helping to weaken the industry...I.E When you start to come up, there will be less legitimate work available.

As composers, we only have ourselves to blame for how weak/strong the business is, if every composer decided to uphold sound business principals on their own, the number of people making a REAL living doing this would explode....and YOU would be negotiating your front end on a cue order...

...not wasting time fighting for imaginary pennies.

Time to kick it up a notch...YOU can do it!!
Old 9th July 2019
  #261
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
You're creating sample libraries for some online sonic flea-market?

Seriously, what do you expect from these people?

It's like someone going the salvation army for lunch and sending back you're Campbell's soup because the chef added too much water.

Stop quibbling over pennies, NEVER do "Work-for-hire" I.E "We-F$%k-You" gigs, Never do jobs with no front end pay, if you are trying to raise your profile, it's better to do free cues for your local film school (Never give a business free music... but a student is OK...But make him submit a cue sheet in case it's ever broadcast)

STAY AWAY from that online scam libraries, you won't get a fraction of what you are worth and you are helping to weaken the industry...I.E When you start to come up, there will be less legitimate work available.

As composers, we only have ourselves to blame for how weak/strong the business is, if every composer decided to uphold sound business principals on their own, the number of people making a REAL living doing this would explode....and YOU would be negotiating your front end on a cue order...

...not wasting time fighting for imaginary pennies.

Time to kick it up a notch...YOU can do it!!
Why is the composer always at fault in these situations? Nobody holds the other players at fault in these things.

Clients, networks, publishers, PROs, and others all get a free pass with “that’s-just-how-the-business-goes” attitude. The only other entity who gets some heat are the big tech companies. Why is that?
Old 9th July 2019
  #262
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee View Post
...NEVER do "Work-for-hire" I.E "We-F$%k-You" gigs, Never do jobs with no front end pay...
hmmmmm.... you do realize that almost every gig for a composer is a work-for-hire gig, especially the ones that pay upfront? Every TV Show score, every film score, every jingle gig, every music library gig, etc... all work-for-hire.
Old 9th July 2019
  #263
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Amber's Avatar
 

What's wrong with work-for-hire? Has been very good to me. Speak for yourself.
Old 9th July 2019
  #264
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
if Work For Hire pays well enough that you're fine if you never make another penny, then it's all great!! If it pays LESS that whatever that amount is for you, then it begs some serious consideration before doing it.

For example :

- TV show that pays **** but you feel you'll kill it on the backend. Only to find out it's going straight to Netflix. No go for me.
- Library that pays minimal buyout up front, but you feel you'll kill it on the backend. Only to find out their main clients are corporate, and their broadcast clients are going straight to stream. No go for me.

The value lies in the content - that's why the libraries, producers, production co's, etc. are scrambling for work for hire ownership. Before "giving" it away, make sure the upfront payment is enough to make just "doing it" with no other remuneration worth the $$ you receive in the buyout. There are desperate writers who are giving away their master rights and publishing for NOTHING. With no guarantee's of backend. Insanely shortsighted and a career breaker in many )most) circumstances IMO.
Old 9th July 2019
  #265
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
if Work For Hire pays well enough that you're fine if you never make another penny, then it's all great!! If it pays LESS that whatever that amount is for you, then it begs some serious consideration before doing it.

For example :

- TV show that pays **** but you feel you'll kill it on the backend. Only to find out it's going straight to Netflix. No go for me.
- Library that pays minimal buyout up front, but you feel you'll kill it on the backend. Only to find out their main clients are corporate, and their broadcast clients are going straight to stream. No go for me.

The value lies in the content - that's why the libraries, producers, production co's, etc. are scrambling for work for hire ownership. Before "giving" it away, make sure the upfront payment is enough to make just "doing it" with no other remuneration worth the $$ you receive in the buyout. There are desperate writers who are giving away their master rights and publishing for NOTHING. With no guarantee's of backend. Insanely shortsighted and a career breaker in many )most) circumstances IMO.
I am not questioning your judgement or sincerity, but sometimes you make music liceensing seem frightening.

I know that some content is going to streaming and that the backend royalties are low. But the very same song that gets placed on some Netflix show could also get licensed for a network TV show, a reality TV show, a commercial, or many other uses. A song doesn't necessarily "die" if it gets used on a streaming network. It's not all-or-nothing.

I just got my ASCAP statement yesterday. Many of the songs on streaming networks are also being used on shows that generate backend royalties. So of course there are going to be losses. But I don't think composers should get scared because of the fact that steeaming media is here. There are always opportunities for music to make money. Sometimes it's just luck. But you have to be in the game to compete.
Old 10th July 2019
  #266
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
I am not questioning your judgement or sincerity, but sometimes you make music liceensing seem frightening.

I know that some content is going to streaming and that the backend royalties are low. But the very same song that gets placed on some Netflix show could also get licensed for a network TV show, a reality TV show, a commercial, or many other uses. A song doesn't necessarily "die" if it gets used on a streaming network. It's not all-or-nothing.

I just got my ASCAP statement yesterday. Many of the songs on streaming networks are also being used on shows that generate backend royalties. So of course there are going to be losses. But I don't think composers should get scared because of the fact that steeaming media is here. There are always opportunities for music to make money. Sometimes it's just luck. But you have to be in the game to compete.

Respectfully, if what I mentioned seems frightening to you, I'd highly suggest a second job, or another career. Certainly not a full time career in writing production music. This is about as benign as it gets. It gets scarier and harder after this.....
Old 10th July 2019
  #267
Here for the gear
 

Just had an update from Splice regarding this. However, it leaves one big question (at the bottom):
Hey there!

As per section 6c of our terms concerning ownership, you have the ability to copyright any work you've used a Splice sample with as your own work, with the understanding that you do not own the copyright of the underlying sample and cannot file any copyright claims on other songs using the same samples from Splice.

The term 'derivative work' in reference to that forum is supposed to be directly in reference to how one would use Splice Sounds content, not in reference to how the term is used in copyrighting an original work.

We acknowledge that the term 'derivative work' is confusing and misleading in this context and that's why it was removed from our terms of service back in March.

As again previously stated in our last email, all samples on Splice are royalty-free. There are no exceptions to this portion of our terms.

You can use the samples as long as you're following the terms set by Splice. As per our terms, the samples cannot be used in the following ways:

(a) use the Sounds in isolation as sound effects, loops, or as source material for any other form of sample (even if you modify the Sounds)

(b) use Sounds in a manner competitive to Company or its licensors

(c), sell, loan, share, lend, broadcast, rent, lease, assign, distribute, or transfer all of the Sounds to a third party except as incorporated into a new music production

(d) redistribute Sounds in new sample packs.

Please let us know if you need help with anything else!

......

The question is: Splice very clearly market samples and loops literally geared towards use in movies (Horror FX packs etc). Yet they state: 'As per our terms, the samples cannot be used in the following ways:

(a) use the Sounds in isolation as sound effects, loops, or as source material for any other form of sample (even if you modify the Sounds)

...

So what am I missing here? How else are you going to use a Splice sample or loop (again they offer such samples geared towards use in movies!!) in a movie other than by adding it to a scene as background noise/music?
So they market samples for use in movies...but UNLESS you add another, additional sound to such samples/loops you can NOT use them in a movie. How does this make any sense?
This is akin to going to a store that sells milk and when you buy it they tell you 'you can use it/drink it...but not by itself. You have to add cocoa powder to it...or chocolate syrup because otherwise you'd be using our milk 'in isolation' which is against our terms.
What am I getting wrong here?

And yes, Splice (and similar libraries') loops and samples are most definitely being used by indie film makers in movies. I thought that was the whole point of Splice- using offered cues and samples in music and movies.

What are your thoughts?
Old 10th July 2019
  #268
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
So the sound packs on Splice are not exclusive to Splice? I see sound packs on Spice for sale on other sites as well. So if these sound packs are distriuted on multiple sites ane they are supposedly royalty free, who would be liable in the case of a copyright infringement suit? The composer is a 16 year old kid with no money and no net worth. A weak target for a lawsuit. So who would be coughin' up the dough?

How much did Lil Nas X pay for "Old Town Road"? The beat was purchased on Beatstars, and it sampled an old Nine Inch Nails song.

if its royalty free why does nine inch nails get to take any money?
Old 10th July 2019
  #269
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Yes, you need to say yes that your work contains samples from a Splice. And since it is splice, it would also be good to list the actual creator that made the sample because splice is not really a sample library production company, they are an online marketplace for sample creators. Even their "Splice Sounds" are not really splice, they are still from 3rd parties... they are very similar to a walmart for samples.

As to your 1st question... if you are using a guitar sample from splice, is it ok...

and the answer really is, it depends. How many other guitar parts are in the song? Is the splice loop in the foreground or in the background? Is the splice loop melodic or is it a rhythmic harmony part (i.e. strumming chords)? What other instruments are playing and how many layers does each of those instruments have? Do you have to provide individual instrument mixed stems along with the full mix? And so on...

its the only guitar part and at times is very apparent but other time not. there is always other music playing with it but it's looped throughout the song (not sure how else one would use a sample in a song).

splice said we can copyright the music though right? i wonder why we must state there is a sample in the song if we are being given the right to use it in the first place. I found the company that makes the samples, so now what? i add them as a writer on the song like lil nas x did with nine inch nails?
Old 10th July 2019
  #270
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Respectfully, if what I mentioned seems frightening to you, I'd highly suggest a second job, or another career. Certainly not a full time career in writing production music. This is about as benign as it gets. It gets scarier and harder after this.....
I am not scared. I realize it's work. It isn't all bad or all good. Just a lot of work.
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