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An open letter: Are you killing the value of your own music?
Old 28th November 2018
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Also, students in colleges and universities majoring in music have access to all kinds of cool music I've never heard - it keeps you young!
What access do they have that we don't?
Old 28th November 2018
  #32
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis_foster View Post
Hi all,

Today I published an open letter to raise awareness of the aggressive devaluation and exploitation that's currently happening in the music licensing space.

I figured this would be a very relevant place to share it: Are you killing the value of your own music? – Lewis Foster – Medium

This is such an important issue for anyone seeking to earn from the placement of their work in video or film. I hope you find it an interesting read and, of course, please feel free to circulate/re-post the letter - the more awareness we can create about this, the better.

- Lewis
Good read... thank you
Old 28th November 2018
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
What access do they have that we don't?
Certain pier group, social circle access ...
Old 28th November 2018
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by lornemalvo View Post
What VW with minor changes is the same as a Porsche?

Be interested to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
If you're talking about the SUV line, there's a grain of truth there, but otherwise, no - better analogies exist.
It's funny how many people don't realize this. My ex wife has worked in the auto industry for over 12 years. She works with multiple car brands. I've met and hung out with VPs and CEOs for several big car companies and several of the biggest car dealership groups in the US.

Here is the thing.... VW owns....

Volkswagen
Audi
Bentley
Bugatti
Lamborhini
Porsche
SEAT
Skoda


So...

Golf = Audi A3 Sportback = Skoda Rapid Spaceback
Jetta = Audi A3
Passat = Audi A4 = Skoda Octavia
CC/Arteon = Audi A6 = Porsche Panamera = Skoda Superb
Tiguan Limited = Audi Q3
Tiguan = Audi Q5 = Porsche Macan = Skoda Karoq
Atlas = Audi Q7 = Porsche Cheyenne = Skoda Kodiaq
Beetle = Audi TT = Porsche 911*
Audi R8 = Lamborghini Huracan

Around 70% to 80% or more is the same between the equivalent cars (911 being the exception, it is based on a VW beetle but it has roughly about 50% similarity instead of 70 or 80%). They do this because of logistics and cost. It's one of the reasons GM went out of business and had to be purchased by FIAT. GM didn't use the same frames, engines, suspensions, etc for different models in their different brands and it literally bankrupted them.

Most other car manufacturers do this. Toyota with Lexus, Honda with Acura, Nissan with Infiniti, Chrysler with Mercedes, Ford with Lincoln, Land Rover, Jaguar and Aston Martin, etc.

This is how car companies maintain profitability. Most people know Toyota is the biggest car company and makes the most gross revenue. But they are one of the least profitable, taking home around $500/car sold on average. Honda and Nissan are roughly the same, taking in between $500 to $800 per car sold.

Brands like Mercedes, Audi and BMW make about $3000 profit per car sold.... while the VW brand only makes about $300/car in profit.

And then there is the most profitable car company in the world and has been for at least the last 12 years... that is Porsche making on average $24,400/car in profit! how do they make that kind of profit?? Because if you buy a Macan with a base price of $47,800. You are basically buying a Tiguan with a base price of $24,295, but they add about $3000 worth of upgrades to the base model (better leather upholstery, better nav/entertainment system, "sports tuned" engine and suspension, etc).

And then with Porsche every additional added "feature" cost has a much higher mark up than does it's equivalent counterpart on the VW car. The Bose or Burmester upgraded sound systems in the Porsche are definitely going to be better than the Fender upgraded sound system in the Tiguan. But the markup on the Bose/Burmester is going to be WAAAAYYYY higher than the markup on the Fender. So the Fender might cost $300 and they charge $700 or $1000. The Burmester might cost $1500 and they charge $6000. Same with any updated "sports" or "luxury" packages.
Old 28th November 2018
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Nissan with Infiniti
Whaaaaaa!!!!!!! You're saying my Infiniti is a Nissan!?!?!?!?!?!?


Old 28th November 2018
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Whaaaaaa!!!!!!! You're saying my Infiniti is a Nissan!?!?!?!?!?!?


No, he is saying my Nissan is an Infiniti.
Old 28th November 2018
  #37
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Whaaaaaa!!!!!!! You're saying my Infiniti is a Nissan!?!?!?!?!?!?


In some markets, yes - my wife’s Infiniti m35 is sold as a Nissan in Japan.
Old 28th November 2018
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
It's funny how many people don't realize this. My ex wife has worked in the auto industry for over 12 years. She works with multiple car brands. I've met and hung out with VPs and CEOs for several big car companies and several of the biggest car dealership groups in the US.

Here is the thing.... VW owns....

Volkswagen
Audi
Bentley
Bugatti
Lamborhini
Porsche
SEAT
Skoda


So...

Golf = Audi A3 Sportback = Skoda Rapid Spaceback
Jetta = Audi A3
Passat = Audi A4 = Skoda Octavia
CC/Arteon = Audi A6 = Porsche Panamera = Skoda Superb
Tiguan Limited = Audi Q3
Tiguan = Audi Q5 = Porsche Macan = Skoda Karoq
Atlas = Audi Q7 = Porsche Cheyenne = Skoda Kodiaq
Beetle = Audi TT = Porsche 911*
Audi R8 = Lamborghini Huracan

Around 70% to 80% or more is the same between the equivalent cars (911 being the exception, it is based on a VW beetle but it has roughly about 50% similarity instead of 70 or 80%). They do this because of logistics and cost. It's one of the reasons GM went out of business and had to be purchased by FIAT. GM didn't use the same frames, engines, suspensions, etc for different models in their different brands and it literally bankrupted them.

Most other car manufacturers do this. Toyota with Lexus, Honda with Acura, Nissan with Infiniti, Chrysler with Mercedes, Ford with Lincoln, Land Rover, Jaguar and Aston Martin, etc.

This is how car companies maintain profitability. Most people know Toyota is the biggest car company and makes the most gross revenue. But they are one of the least profitable, taking home around $500/car sold on average. Honda and Nissan are roughly the same, taking in between $500 to $800 per car sold.

Brands like Mercedes, Audi and BMW make about $3000 profit per car sold.... while the VW brand only makes about $300/car in profit.

And then there is the most profitable car company in the world and has been for at least the last 12 years... that is Porsche making on average $24,400/car in profit! how do they make that kind of profit?? Because if you buy a Macan with a base price of $47,800. You are basically buying a Tiguan with a base price of $24,295, but they add about $3000 worth of upgrades to the base model (better leather upholstery, better nav/entertainment system, "sports tuned" engine and suspension, etc).

And then with Porsche every additional added "feature" cost has a much higher mark up than does it's equivalent counterpart on the VW car. The Bose or Burmester upgraded sound systems in the Porsche are definitely going to be better than the Fender upgraded sound system in the Tiguan. But the markup on the Bose/Burmester is going to be WAAAAYYYY higher than the markup on the Fender. So the Fender might cost $300 and they charge $700 or $1000. The Burmester might cost $1500 and they charge $6000. Same with any updated "sports" or "luxury" packages.
Parts and platform sharing is as old as the hills - GM sold Cadillac’s, Buick’s, pontiacs, Oldsmobile’s and Chevys - all built on the same basic chassis - these cars shared windshields, roof pillars, switchgear, engines - a Buick Le Sabre was an Olds 88, which was a Pontiac Catalina, and a lowly Chevy Impala ...

Most of a car is third party parts: transmissions, brakes, seats, glass, electronics, about 70 percent is NOT made by the manufacturer, that leaves the body in white and some engineering, and that’s where the money goes, my BMW drives a certain way because of the skill of its designers and the freedom they have to spec higher level parts: aluminum in the suspension, stronger brakes, more chassis rigidity, incredible steering and a history to draw on. I can track my car and drive it home.

Cars aren’t only about the sum of their parts any more than a fine musician is all about his gear, it’s about the intellectual property, heritage and skill of the designers - all cars are built to a cost, but more cost gets you more, in some cases, more than you think.

Also, Porsche is a low volume maker, while profit on a Golf is lower, they sell tons more of those - Porsche wouldn’t survive without VW

None of this matters if all you do is see a car as an appliance, but if you’re a gear head, like me, buying cars and getting them sorted out is just like buying the best gear you can afford - it's worth the extra 10 to 15% or so of gain.

Last edited by Sharp11; 28th November 2018 at 06:02 PM..
Old 28th November 2018
  #39
Here for the gear
 

The monthly fee subscription system is very shady. Contributors would have a very hard time knowing if they are exploited or not...
Old 28th November 2018
  #40
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
It's funny how many people don't realize this.
I did know that VW owned Porsche.

Not a fan of the Macan myself but as I understand it (taken from the Macan forum):

My god, they are totally different cars....where do I start.

1 - the Tiguan has a transverse mounted engine vs longitudal in the Macan
2 - the Tiguan is a part time AWD vs full time Macan
3 - the Tiguan is front-wheel drive most of the time, whereas Macan is mostly rear wheel drive
4 - the gearboxes are totally different - The Tiguan is 6 speed the Macan is a 7 speed PDK
5 - they have completely different chassis
etc
etc
etc


So I'm not convinced "You are basically buying a Tiguan". You are buying somewhat more that that, especilly considering how much faster the 2017 Macan is over the 2017 Tiguan.

As a Porsche owner, I just thought your analogy was a tad silly tbh.

The driving experience, fit, finish, engine noise, handling, build quality, looks etc... between a Porsche and a VW is night and day.

I heartily recommend you book a nice track day and experience some of that sublime Porsche pleasure.

Anyway, car chat is always fun but we have gone slightly O/T. Back to library music. Now where were we...
Old 28th November 2018
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by lornemalvo View Post
As a Porsche owner, I just thought your analogy was a tad silly tbh.

The driving experience, fit, finish, engine noise, handling, build quality, looks etc... between a Porsche and a VW is night and day.

I heartily recommend you book a nice track day and experience some of that sublime Porsche pleasure.

Anyway, car chat is always fun but we have gone slightly O/T. Back to library music. Now where were we...
No way. Show us your Porsche!
Old 28th November 2018
  #42
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for all the thoughts and fb guys.

I figured some scrutiny toward me and Music Vine would be part and parcel of putting the letter out there. Good on you guys who don't take things at face value.

@ JohnFulford - we don't offer advances at this stage, for a few reasons: 1) We don't tie artists into any lengthy time commitment (we just require 3 months notice for either a track or an entire artist account to be released from agreement & removed from our site- meaning artists can try us out and leave pretty quickly if it's not proving beneficial for them), 2) We're a very young company still and have had to invest heavily in tech, while we'd love to pay upfront, we simply don't have the funds available at this stage. 3) We've largely been taking on material (mainly on an exclusive basis) that composers/producers have already produced (as opposed to commissioning tracks specifically for Music Vine). With all this said though, we are hoping that commissioning specific work from our artists (with advances being paid in return for a larger time commitment from them) is something we'll be able to move toward in the near future.

@ Desire Inspires - sorry to hear the letter didn't do much for you, but thanks for giving it a shot. It sounds like you've got a lot more experience - in which case you're not really the target audience for the letter. It's geared toward those musicians who aren't yet familiar the production music / licensing world and who may have considered putting their music on the one-size-fits-all subscription sites without realising the extreme devaluation those sites represent. I'm surprised you don't think much to our music or site, that's rare feedback indeed. But each to their own!

Please keep in mind guys that Music Vine is a production music platform - it's a different world to licensing for mainstream bands/artists, which I'm sure some of you may be more familiar with. In the production music space, I believe Music Vine is one of the most democratically priced platforms available. Our prices are low & accessible for the smallest usages (personal / hobbyist), but quickly scale up for larger commercial usages(up to $3k+). While I don't claim to be perfect and we ourselves are learning about how to improve our young company, when you consider that a higher-tier license from Music Vine can potentially make $2k+ for our artists, then compare that with the <$1 that artists would earn from the very same placement on the companies I'm referring to (i.e 2000x less!), hopefully you can see the clear difference between what we're doing and what they're doing - and the reason I took the time to raise awareness in the letter.
Old 28th November 2018
  #43
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lornemalvo View Post
I did know that VW owned Porsche.

Not a fan of the Macan myself but as I understand it (taken from the Macan forum):

My god, they are totally different cars....where do I start.

1 - the Tiguan has a transverse mounted engine vs longitudal in the Macan
2 - the Tiguan is a part time AWD vs full time Macan
3 - the Tiguan is front-wheel drive most of the time, whereas Macan is mostly rear wheel drive
4 - the gearboxes are totally different - The Tiguan is 6 speed the Macan is a 7 speed PDK
5 - they have completely different chassis
etc
etc
etc


So I'm not convinced "You are basically buying a Tiguan". You are buying somewhat more that that, especilly considering how much faster the 2017 Macan is over the 2017 Tiguan.
My wife's 2007 Infiniti M35 is no Nissan, either - it's got an all aluminum suspension (double wishbones), aluminum trunk, doors, and hood, bigger brakes, Nissan's best V6 (of the time, shared with some other models), and great seats. It also had the company's stiffest FM series, RWD platform, NOT the standard front drive platform from across the line.

Why does that matter? Drive it around Lime Rock Park and you'll see
Old 28th November 2018
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
My wife's 2007 Infiniti M35 is no Nissan, either - it's got an all aluminum suspension (double wishbones), aluminum trunk, doors, and hood, bigger brakes, Nissan's best V6 (of the time, shared with some other models), and great seats. It also had the company's stiffest FM series, RWD platform, NOT the standard front drive platform from across the line.

Why does that matter? Drive it around Lime Rock Park and you'll see


What's the car in yer avatar dude? Looks meaty!
Old 28th November 2018
  #45
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
No way. Show us your Porsche!
Perfectly happy to PM you a photo if you're into cars. Better not carry on the car chat here or I am gonna annoy everyone!

Cars are much more interesting than library music though. IMO.
Old 28th November 2018
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Whaaaaaa!!!!!!! You're saying my Infiniti is a Nissan!?!?!?!?!?!?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
No, he is saying my Nissan is an Infiniti.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
In some markets, yes - my wife’s Infiniti m35 is sold as a Nissan in Japan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
My wife's 2007 Infiniti M35 is no Nissan, either - it's got an all aluminum suspension (double wishbones), aluminum trunk, doors, and hood, bigger brakes, Nissan's best V6 (of the time, shared with some other models), and great seats. It also had the company's stiffest FM series, RWD platform, NOT the standard front drive platform from across the line.

Why does that matter? Drive it around Lime Rock Park and you'll see
Yup. Nissan = Infiniti. As much as people WANT there to be a huge difference. there isn't. 4 people in my ex-wife's family worked for Nissan at their corporate office when it used to be here near long beach, and they all worked in the parts division. 2 of them still work for Nissan. All of them have confirmed to me dozens of times over, that there is very little difference between Nissan and Infiniti, they even use most of the same parts. And as Sharp 11 points out.... outside the US, your infiniti cars like the M's (I used to own an M35 as well), the Q's, etc are sold as an additional premium tier of their Nissan counterpart in some countries outside the US.
Old 28th November 2018
  #47
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lornemalvo View Post


What's the car in yer avatar dude? Looks meaty!
That's my 2005 BMW Z4 - I did a season of autocross and track events with it and sold it - today I drive a 2006 BMW ZHP (performance m package) and do little track stuff. Great car, I just bought four new snow tires for it (one of the privileges of living in the northeastern US)

Old 28th November 2018
  #48
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Yup. Nissan = Infiniti. As much as people WANT there to be a huge difference. there isn't.
You can't whip a stock Altima around Lime Rock at 140 MPH, you can an M35, and drive it home.

That's a pretty significant difference.

People who understand cars know there isn't a "huge" difference in day to day driving, but as I explained earlier, and I assume you read, it isn't about the parts, it's about everything else that goes into the design and manufacturing - especially wrt heritage. It's no different than buying an expensive mic pre vs an inexpensive model, both are likely to share parts and manufacturing processes - such as SMC, off the shelf knobs and switches, etc. - is there a 10% difference? Probably, but whether that's worth it or not depends upon the consumer/target market.

Noe of this is groundbreaking news, it's (consumerism) marketing 101 and it's been with us for decades.
Old 28th November 2018
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Scott View Post
Thanks for the info Shane,

I didn't say his company is directly responsible. I said companies like his are ruining the business.

I understand what companies he is talking about.
Hey

How are sites like his/Music Vine ruining the industry?
Old 28th November 2018
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by lornemalvo View Post
My god, they are totally different cars....where do I start.

1 - the Tiguan has a transverse mounted engine vs longitudal in the Macan
2 - the Tiguan is a part time AWD vs full time Macan
3 - the Tiguan is front-wheel drive most of the time, whereas Macan is mostly rear wheel drive
4 - the gearboxes are totally different - The Tiguan is 6 speed the Macan is a 7 speed PDK
5 - they have completely different chassis
etc
etc
etc
LOL... guess what... the chassis that both the Tiguan and Macan use have engine mounts for both traverse and longitudinal engine mounting... it's the same frame, no difference. The reason they mount the tiguan transverse is because they wanted it front wheel drive. The reason they mount the Macan longitudinal is because they wanted it rear wheel drive. How the engine is mounted is superfluous. It's the same frame/chassis and the same line of engines.

Part time AWD vs Full Time AWD is just an option they swap out. How much more does the Macan's AWD drivetrain cost wholesale vs the Tiguan's FWD drivetrain? It's a modular part that can be swapped out. The price difference between the two is probably around $1000 or $2000. that is is.

Gearbox, serious? Again, that is a modular part and can be swapped out ad nauseum. What do you think the wholesale price difference is between the Tiguan 6 speed transmission and the Macan's 7 speed transmission? A price difference of maybe $1000?

That is incorrect, the chassis is identical. The body panels that attach onto the chassis are different and this give the Macan a slightly wider and longer exterior by several inches. But that is solely cosmetic. the price difference between the Tiguan body panels and Macan is negligible. They are almost the same price.

So for roughly about $5000 worth of difference, people pay almost $24,000 more. notice where the $24,400 in profit per car is coming from????

And by the way... you have it backwards. VW would not survive without Audi and Porsche. Porsche would be fine on it's own. Porsche made 26 BILLION dollars in revenue in 2017. TWENTY SIX BILLION... it made $4.7 BILLION dollars IN PROFIT!!! That is a profit margin of 18%!!!

VW brand's profit margin is around 2.5% to 3% right now. they are forecasting it will rise to 4% or 5% by 2020. Compare that to the 18% profit margin from Porsche and 14% profit margin from Audi.

Total revenue and total profit in a dollar amount is somewhat irrelevant. It is all about the %. That profit margin % is the company's buffer against bankruptcy. Even though VW car brand makes a lot of money... there is very little return on investment, they sell the cars for almost as much as they cost to make. Any minor problems and the brand will go into the red.


And to tie this all back into the topic of this thread... Companies like Music Vine and other buyout/RF sites operate on such a small profit margin because they give away the music for so cheap it is very difficult for them to stay in business even if they have a lot of revenue (Music Dealers, anyone?). Any problems these companies run into will basically put them out of business because they do not have the additional money to absorb a financial hit. For example, it has been an ongoing trend for shady people to record audio off the websites of the big "major" music libraries like APM, Extreme, Killer Tracks and then retitle it and put it up on these buyout/RF sites as their own music. I know of one "bandit" who has about 5000 pieces of music from a single library. He recorded all the music from the music audition player on the site into his/her daw. He creates anonymous accounts with these RF sites and posts all this music up under his own name with completely new, random titles.

Within about a month or two, the libraries that own the music catch it and sue the buyout/RF library hosting the music. They pull the music down, have to pay 100's of thousands of dollars in legal fees and damages and have no way of tracking down the guy who did it... so he waits a month or so... creates another new account with the same RF sites, reposts all the music again with all new titles and does the same thing... a couple months go by, RF library gets sued again... rinse, repeat. A bunch of RF/Buyout libraries have gone the way of the Dodo bird because of this guy and the lawsuits that followed. Why have they gone under... because their operating profit was so small, they literally didn't have the extra money to sustain themselves when something like this hit.

A company's worth and a company's success isn't not really derived from it's gross revenue. It's derived from it's profit margin and P/L. If a company's only sales tactic is to slash the price in order to get sales/licenses... then it is slashing it's profit margin and creating an unsustainable business.

So how do you take music and increase its profit margin??? you do it in similar ways to how Car companies can take an inexpensive "value" brand and make an expensive "luxury" brand out of it. You do it in a similar way to a coffee company who took a $0.50 cup of coffee and justified a $5.00 price tag. You do it in a similar way to a beer company who charges $2 for a glass of it's normal beer to $7 for its "microbrew" beer... and so on.

You find a way to differentiate it... then YOU dictate the price of that difference. The OP, instead of writing a blog complaining about how other companies are now offering the same music he has for cheaper than he is... he should be looking for ways to raise his prices, not lower them to compete with the race to the bottom.
Old 28th November 2018
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
LOL... guess what... the chassis that both the Tiguan and Macan use have engine mounts for both traverse and longitudinal engine mounting... it's the same frame, no difference. The reason they mount the tiguan transverse is because they wanted it front wheel drive. The reason they mount the Macan longitudinal is because they wanted it rear wheel drive. How the engine is mounted is superfluous. It's the same frame/chassis and the same line of engines.

Part time AWD vs Full Time AWD is just an option they swap out. How much more does the Macan's AWD drivetrain cost wholesale vs the Tiguan's FWD drivetrain? It's a modular part that can be swapped out. The price difference between the two is probably around $1000 or $2000. that is is.

Gearbox, serious? Again, that is a modular part and can be swapped out ad nauseum. What do you think the wholesale price difference is between the Tiguan 6 speed transmission and the Macan's 7 speed transmission? A price difference of maybe $1000?

That is incorrect, the chassis is identical. The body panels that attach onto the chassis are different and this give the Macan a slightly wider and longer exterior by several inches. But that is solely cosmetic. the price difference between the Tiguan body panels and Macan is negligible. They are almost the same price.

So for roughly about $5000 worth of difference, people pay almost $24,000 more. notice where the $24,400 in profit per car is coming from????

And by the way... you have it backwards. VW would not survive without Audi and Porsche. Porsche would be fine on it's own. Porsche made 26 BILLION dollars in revenue in 2017. TWENTY SIX BILLION... it made $4.7 BILLION dollars IN PROFIT!!! That is a profit margin of 18%!!!

VW brand's profit margin is around 2.5% to 3% right now. they are forecasting it will rise to 4% or 5% by 2020. Compare that to the 18% profit margin from Porsche and 14% profit margin from Audi.

Total revenue and total profit in a dollar amount is somewhat irrelevant. It is all about the %. That profit margin % is the company's buffer against bankruptcy. Even though VW car brand makes a lot of money... there is very little return on investment, they sell the cars for almost as much as they cost to make. Any minor problems and the brand will go into the red.
Wow, so much information to take in.

Whatever you wanna think is fine by me dude . As long as it makes you happy

I'm off for a drive in my Pors....I mean VW.

Au revoir.

x
Old 28th November 2018
  #52
Here for the gear
 

@ Etch-A-Sketch - Just to confirm, Music Vine is neither a buyout nor a royalty-free platform. I think you may be getting the wrong impression about what we do / our relationship with our artists - if I've been unclear somewhere, please do let me know.

With Music Vine we are working hard to build a company that makes great music accessible to productions of various scales at appropriate prices. These days there is a huge number of small production companies out there producing small-scale content for young companies etc - a lot of these folks are very skilled and produce great content, but on a smaller budget. These types of professionals and freelancers represent a huge portion of the video industry.

Our aim has been to make it possible for these smaller productions to access great music within their budgets, while also ensuring our prices scale-up fairly for larger usages too.

We also have some of the most flexible artist policies in the industry. With artists being able to submit exclusive or non-exclusive tracks (on an individual track basis) as they wish (most of our content is exclusive BTW) and being able to pull tracks or leave completely pretty much as they please.

Our prices are substantially higher than many online production music companies out there, and are incomparable to the one-size-fits-all subscription model that is the focus of my letter.

My point is - we are trying hard to build a good thing that gives musicians a lot of control and transparency. It is all too easy to criticise in these forums.
Old 28th November 2018
  #53
Here for the gear
 

Also @ Etch-A-Sketch - intention of my letter is to raise awareness - certainly not to complain :-)
Old 28th November 2018
  #54
Gear Maniac
 

I checked Music Vine and the quality of the music seems really good to me.
Old 28th November 2018
  #55
Gear Maniac
 

And no way my Audi is a Skoda..
Old 28th November 2018
  #56
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oscarproducer View Post
I checked Music Vine and the quality of the music seems really good to me.
- Thanks bud, we've put a tonne of work into the catalogue. The FB means a lot.
Old 28th November 2018
  #57
Here for the gear
 

"The OP, instead of writing a blog complaining about how other companies are now offering the same music he has for cheaper than he is... he should be looking for ways to raise his prices, not lower them to compete with the race to the bottom."

That's right. I don't think Etch-A-Sketch is confusing you with a RF site, but you have very similar prices to what I would consider other low end ones, and a similar policy with your artists.

"We also have some of the most flexible artist policies in the industry" Not necessarily a good thing for the composer. It really depends. Some people make it work this way, having that flexibility to pull their stuff, go non exclusive, whatever - this works for one type of thing, but definitely not high end stuff with high end fees.

OP I respect what you are doing in comparison to those ****ty, terrible sites - but that's not really saying much. If your scaled up, high end licenses are still only 3k, thats about 10 times too small still. Of course you have the right to call out these other shady sites, but I really can't see how you are doing any good if you are offering the same tracks to both high and low end clients, it's just dirtying the waters, and then clients keep going around town saying how they can get x type of track for such a low price.

It's all about perceived value and I really don't think you can do high quality & affordable. I have no problem if your goal is just to service youtubers (lets be honest, these creators need access to music too), but then on your pricing page for an advertising campaign someone can license a track for a very small amount of money and this is where the problem lies.

You can't really have any perceived value if you're like oh yeah, this $100 track? If you wanna use it in a movie trailer its gonna be x thousand dollars, and if you can, that x will be a small number.

Again I think there's a need for sites like this, to service a huge amount of content creators out there. But I take issue with the fact that you call out sites for killing the industry, when I, and many, many publishers would consider your site to be doing that.
Old 28th November 2018
  #58
Lives for gear
 
gsilbers's Avatar
 

it was mentioned in the article but still think that supply is whats really lowering the price. but the supply is not a simple thing as just more music. it has to do with this huge shift in technological changes. not even 5 years ago i wouldnt check anything out in soundcloud. now, there is great music being produced by small indie artists and bedroom prodcuers. rick beato is pretty much teaching what i learned at berklee but in yourtube for everyone to see. (minus the rigurious exercises).
10 hours of epic music in youtube videos with millions of views. then 10 times that for EDM and electronic and hiphop. all small artists that are not famous or relative not known. Everyone of of them using affordable great plugins and samples.
with less than $1000 you can get an orchestral library that 10x better that what hans zimmer had in 2003 which was 10.1 custom everything.
Everyone everywhere can see what everyone else is doing prodcution wise, lessons, or just checkign stuff out. ive been prodcucing since 1999 and living thorugh this change is nothing short of a miracle , not only music.
If anyone does not agree about great music being done by unkown artists then that probably why you are thinking there is soemthing wrong elsewhere or thats the state of music and artisst dot know any better about business.
so its not as easy as its us not knowning soomething or these libraries taking advantage etc. IF i live in a small town with only one school and that school only teaches plumbing.. im pretty sure ill get some very low prices when i need any pluming repear.
We might still be in the notion that music is this amazing thing, amazing art that lives in pedestal that somehow needs to be paid attencion and its should be getting "whats its worth" in some sort of fantasy bubble. reality is that music lives inside a market along with millions of other components. And if there is an over abundance of music and producers making from relative bad, to ok music to somehwat good and then some amazing music then that turns into a huge grey area of over supply. some poeple will do the tech subcirption thing to license music, other will try to sell it like some sort of luxury item and so on. but all in all, there is shiat ton of music and thats whats going to bring prices down... somewhat or another.
but dont get me wrong... im just being a realist... i really would like to be some sort of central command or agency, kinda like BMI/ASCAP but that helps musicians deal with any sort of contracts. easy to see menus of how much a pieace of music should cost for a specific outlet and akin music library report, something that we could easily search to see reviews and info on specific companies or types of deals. what it means to us and so on. that for music licensing, commercial music label deals, youtube, filmscoring etc. everyhting up in the open so we can point out to anyone interested in our music.. so you can say to a struggling director... hey... id love to score your movie and this is the going rate www.website.com if they saud expposure or not have money then you tell them.. well.. you had to rent expensive cameras... so there is money somehwere come back later. then that director goes somehwer else and that other composer points out to the same site. and so on. and if the director gets a student composer and the music sucks... then he learns. do this 10,000 and all filmmakers , studios, etc etc will know and we could start getting paid upfront. also maybe unite all against streaming giants who should be paying more. specially netflix and amazon that they have more money that all broadcasters combines but dont belive in royalties. but then comes the realist in me who sees the rest of this thread and the many similar ones where no one can get consensus on anything.. there is very little chance of getting anything done but get prices even lower. so imo, the best solution is to learn how to write good music really fast. like crankign out 4 tracks a day sort of thing. and dive to the depths of pennies and quaters in a hat next to a beging homeless man.
Old 28th November 2018
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delusi View Post
Hey

How are sites like his/Music Vine ruining the industry?
race to the bottom. they do not understand anything about music copyright law nor do they understand the value of intellectual property. So they come barreling into the business guns blazing without any of the standard publishing industry "negotiation" tools for licensing. Their only tactic is to offer the music lower than the other guys.

This type of strategy works sometimes in retail. The way it works is that a business with some sort of investment backing will enter into a market and start undercutting the prices of all their competitors, taking an operating loss in the process. Because of the investment backing they can sustain the losses for at least several years or more. The competitors that are without investment backing cannot sustain the loss of business to the store that is now offering the same merchandise for cheaper than what it costs to sell it... so these business start going out of business... once enough of the competition has been eliminated and the investor backed company has gained market dominance... it can then dictate the prices for the items it sells and it now raises the prices.

This doesn't work for music though because even though we might all have rock music... the ability for any one piece of rock music to work perfectly against a specific picture edit is small. So it limits the amount of actual useable tracks to a very small amount. But it depends on the clientele and the market segment.
Old 28th November 2018
  #60
Lives for gear
 
Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lornemalvo View Post
Wow, so much information to take in.

Whatever you wanna think is fine by me dude . As long as it makes you happy

I'm off for a drive in my Pors....I mean VW.

Au revoir.

x
He doesn't care what you think or I think, he's not listening ... he's going to lecture you into submission ... your mistake was in thinking a discussion would ensue ...lol.

Automakers began platform sharing back in the 30's, it's a plus not a negative, it allows for more models and more technology to be amortized among more car lines. it also allows cheaper cars to receive much of the same engineering as their more $ counterparts. It also allows for many more interesting models to be built. It's ok that your Porsche shares some of its parts with VW's and Audis, that means greater reliability and lower cost, unless you have to replace a transmission in a Porsche Panamera, that's going to cost you a whopping 30 grand, way more than in a VW (rest assured, it isn't the same box)!!!!
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