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Multiple mics summed? Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 1 week ago
  #1
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Multiple mics summed?

Recorded with multiple mics which were then later summed into: Close, Decca, Hall

This does not sound normal to me for an orch, or part(s) thereof. Is it?
Old 5 days ago
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Recorded with multiple mics which were then later summed into: Close, Decca, Hall

This does not sound normal to me for an orch, or part(s) thereof. Is it?
Might need a bit more context!
Old 5 days ago
  #3
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It is a string sample lib recorded in some hall... that's all I have!
Old 5 days ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Recorded with multiple mics which were then later summed into: Close, Decca, Hall

This does not sound normal to me for an orch, or part(s) thereof. Is it?
String lib? Sounds like they took the close / ancillary mics and folded them into the appropriate aforementioned "stems". I'd say that sounds normal to me. They can't give you control over EVERY mic. They've got to condense things to some degree. That entails summing them together into the appropriate mic group.
Old 5 days ago
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
String lib? Sounds like they took the close / ancillary mics and folded them into the appropriate aforementioned "stems". I'd say that sounds normal to me. They can't give you control over EVERY mic. They've got to condense things to some degree. That entails summing them together into the appropriate mic group.
Well, yeah they could.... but I understand at some point, you have to make d/ls, HDD space and RAM usage feasible.

So, if you have several mic positions, which are a DTree and some ancillary/others, and you fold down/sum those into what you now call a DTree... that's not really a DTree, is it?
Old 5 days ago
  #6
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If you have stereo playback of a decca tree (3 mics), is it not summed? Is it still not a Decca Tree that is played back (in fact the first way before surround playback was used)?
I'd even expand that to the three mics on the tree and the 2 flanking mics which is the Decca technique. All justifiably could be called "Decca" (no tree). Which is what you've quoted says. And that's definitely a sum.

This is all pretty standard.

And besides d/ls, HDD space, and RAM, if you really wanted to control all mics in real time, it puts a burden on most people's computer from processing that many voices and crossfades in real time. So they are doing you a favour.
Old 5 days ago
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Well, yeah they could.... but I understand at some point, you have to make d/ls, HDD space and RAM usage feasible.

So, if you have several mic positions, which are a DTree and some ancillary/others, and you fold down/sum those into what you now call a DTree... that's not really a DTree, is it?

Jeff - first, maybe I'm an idiot but I don't know what d/ls is....

But yeah, technically if any mic is added to the 3 decca tree mics, it's not "technically" a decca tree. Then again, neither is a stereo fold-down to get out your stereo instance of Kontakt. But that said, I could give you several examples of 2 simultaneous decca tree's, multiple outriggers - front and back of the orch, several mics mid and far hall in various configs (depending on hall), and of course the close mics combined in unique and creative ways to achieve the best result. What goes where on a close / decca / hall stem is completely dependent on what was recorded and what the ultimate sound is.

What happens if the hall mics were too far back? What if the decca's were too close? What if the spot mics are too strident? Various combinations in subtle ghostings can really smooth things out and add definition if needed.

I could easily see a "close decca" (right over the conductors head) being added to the "close" stem. And a touch of main decca or outriggers to the "hall" stem for a touch of definition. in Stereo applications, the room (not far hall) outriggers will almost certainly be added to the LCR or stereo stem. Certainly, adding in a touch of close mics with a mid to far decca happens all the time - esp with some low perc.

It's all about creative choices, and the sonics you're after.
Old 5 days ago
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
If you have stereo playback of a decca tree (3 mics), is it not summed?.
Technically, yes, but I am talking before you make the final stereo/whatever mix.
Old 5 days ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Jeff - first, maybe I'm an idiot
NO!

d/l = download

As for the rest of your post, you are right, of course, but there in lies the issue, AFAIC. You are talking mixing, and creative decisions that are made to, as you say, achieve the sonics you're after.

But in this sample lib, much of this is done for you already. I guess that's what I have an issue with.

Another issue I have is with the way I worded my initial Q But that's for another day...

Cheers.
Old 5 days ago
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
NO!

d/l = download

As for the rest of your post, you are right, of course, but there in lies the issue, AFAIC. You are talking mixing, and creative decisions that are made to, as you say, achieve the sonics you're after.

But in this sample lib, much of this is done for you already. I guess that's what I have an issue with.

Another issue I have is with the way I worded my initial Q But that's for another day...

Cheers.
You said d/ls - what''s the S bro!!!!???

Yeah, but every library I've ever seen has combined (summed) mics. They just don't TELL you they have combined mics. For SURE they've taken 20+ close mics and combined them to "close" stereo. Then 3-5 decca + outriggers and combined them to stereo decca tree. Then....hard to know how many hall mics they used.

It's all an illusion Jeff!!
Old 5 days ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
You said d/ls - what''s the S bro!!!!???
Yer joking. Tell me yer joking....


Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Yeah, but every library I've ever seen has combined (summed) mics. They just don't TELL you they have combined mics.
Oh. Really? Nah. Yeah???
Old 3 days ago
  #12
yup, that is standard operating procedure for most orchestral libraries.

Close - is a stereo sum of all the close mics used on the orchestra (up to about 50 usually)

Tree - is a sum of the Decca Tree and outrigger pair (5 mics)

Hall - is a sum of all ambient microphones placed around the hall/studio for natural room reverb (anywhere from 4 to sometimes 12 or 16 mics)
Old 3 days ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Close - is a stereo sum of all the close mics used on the orchestra (up to about 50 usually)
ok, well that makes sense.

So, in your opinion, does not having these mics separated (the DT and the OR for ex [tho SFA has those sep.]) put the end user at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to depth and space? As compared, say, to a pro mixer with all of these mic positions at his disposal individually...
Old 2 days ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
So, in your opinion, does not having these mics separated (the DT and the OR for ex [tho SFA has those sep.]) put the end user at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to depth and space? As compared, say, to a pro mixer with all of these mic positions at his disposal individually...
Well, maybe... But by far and away the main disadvantage is that you're mixing samples, not real players. Think of it as a totally different ball game to mixing a real orchestral multitrack.
Old 1 day ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam miller View Post
But by far and away the main disadvantage is that you're mixing samples, not real players.
Oh - no doubt that's the first disadvantage you encounter.
Old 1 day ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post


Tree - is a sum of the Decca Tree and outrigger pair (5 mics)

)
what is that?
Old 1 day ago
  #17
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most users are ok w having 3 mic positions. too many and maybe it starts having phase issues?
and most likley a pita on scripting round robin on so many individual mics/stems when users will most likely have one -set and forget it- setting.
Old 1 day ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
what is that?
Outriggers are "flanking" mics, typically located anywhere from 3-12 feet to each side of the DTree, aimed downward, at the group of players. They help to add a sense of space, and help expand the l/r width of the DTree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
most users are ok w having 3 mic positions.
Not me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
too many and maybe it starts having phase issues?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
and most likley a pita on scripting round robin on so many individual mics/stems....
Not really. Extra work, yes. But shouldn't be a PITA.

Cheers.
Old 13 hours ago
  #19
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maybe i should expand on phase issues:
Phasing and sample libraries | VI-CONTROL
which is also a problem with true legato transitions and with so many mics, editing and mapping and scirpting the round robins.. does become more work than normal if its a lot more mics.

and again, most pople at most use the close and far mic postions in library, my guess most use the "mix" mic positions and in some libraries like spitfire they have thehans zimmer mix and junkie xl mix. . 3 is like great but if it sounds good maybe it helps adjut a bit depending on styles. like CSS sounds amazing and also only has close, room and main in addition to the mixed. some libraries you do get a more "close" mic sound than others. which of course if there where mic options those could sound closer. or fuller. which is why EW and spitfire and cinesamples hire those orchestra film engineers so they can do those desitions like they do on those famous film scores.
Old 10 hours ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Not me!
OK Jeff.... My perspective :

When I'm mixing a "real" orchestra :

If the recording is good and balanced (and it should be for a library cause they're only dealing with single notes at a time...not multiple sections and lines simultaneously) the Decca and outrigger positions are 85-90% of my sound.

Hall mics are nice, but not 100% necessary for me. There is no "hall" in/on the sony stage, the warners stage or at capitol. I can use a nice 480L or the Bricasti to get me where I want - hall wise.

That leaves the close mics, and I really only need those for modern chase type scores, or for rebalancing parts when the performance is not what it should be - which again, is not a problem in using a library setting.

Summing for libraries? Absolutely mandatory for me. I don't want to deal with 60+ mics for a single violin line....

But that's just me. I know you are a maniac!!
Old 7 hours ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
If the recording is good and balanced (and it should be for a library cause they're only dealing with single notes at a time...not multiple sections and lines simultaneously) the Decca and outrigger positions are 85-90% of my sound.
Something tells me that most music mixers/re-recording eng. would say right about the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I know you are a maniac!!

Well, yeah! But what's wrong with that?!?! One of the things that bugs me about MIDI mockups is that they are all flat. And that is not a performance thing; tho the performance is flat as well (compared to the real thing), that's not what I mean. It's flat to me in terms of space. They sound 2D as opposed to 3D; there is no depth. And I feel very strongly that having 6-8 mic positions to do "stuff" with would help with that. But that's just me

Cheers.
Old 7 hours ago
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
maybe i should expand on phase issues:
Phasing and sample libraries | VI-CONTROL.
Yeah - I have seen that. So, are you talking phasing, or chorusing?

Chorusing just happens. In real life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
which is also a problem with true legato transitions and with so many mics, editing and mapping and scirpting the round robins.. does become more work than normal if its a lot more mics.
I don't see it as being a problem with legato transitions.

Cheers.
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