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Deal advice | Experience with Flipper Music (Italy)?
Old 11th October 2017
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Deal advice | Experience with Flipper Music (Italy)?

Greetings to all the helpful users of Music for Picture,
Longtime reader first time poster! Searched this forum along with Music Library Report for posts relating to this library and found minimal experience. Would love to hear your thoughts!

Flippermusic (https://www.flippermusic.it) is a library based in Italy. They offer a small ($500) upfront payment for 12-14 track albums licensed exclusively in-perpetuity, with a 50/50 split on all backend, including publishing. They seem to have a strong hold on the production music market in Italy and beyond. I'm a little hesitant given the small upfront payment (they specify this as being for "studio production cost reimbursements" rather than a buyout or advance). I know many places don't even offer any upfront payment, but I'm curious if I'm missing any fine print or details that may leave me screwed should I proceed with this project.

If anyone has dealt with Flippermusic in the past, or has thoughts on the proposed deal, I'd love to hear your feedback.

Thanks very much.
Hope to be posting here more often.
Old 11th October 2017
  #2
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drBill's Avatar
Don't know anything about them, but why would you take a $35-50 per tune buyout - exclusive - in perpetuity. That's insane. You can keep your copyright and get more than that from a micro stock library in ONE license. Just say no.
Old 11th October 2017
  #3
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Don't know anything about them, but why would you take a $35-50 per tune buyout - exclusive - in perpetuity. That's insane. You can keep your copyright and get more than that from a micro stock library in ONE license. Just say no.
Hi Dr Bill,
Your posts have been really helpful in guiding me in the past! Thanks for your response.

I'm still rather new moving into the production music world, but my understanding is that I am still getting a 50/50 split of all back-end (plus 50% of any upfront synch fees). Under those conditions, would you still find this to be a bad deal?
Old 11th October 2017
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Don't know anything about them, but why would you take a $35-50 per tune buyout - exclusive - in perpetuity. That's insane. You can keep your copyright and get more than that from a micro stock library in ONE license. Just say no.
Which libraries are those?

Most of the micro stock sites I see charge around $25 to $50 for licenses.

Some companies may charge more or allow people to set their own prices, but I don't see many of these companies.

I myself charge $99 for all my cues at Pond5.
Old 11th October 2017
  #5
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by generic1988 View Post
Hi Dr Bill,
Under those conditions, would you still find this to be a bad deal?
Yes. Because of :

Perpetuity
Exclusivity
$35.00 per track
And at $35 per track, publisher has very little motivation to push your material.

HORRIBLE deal IMO.

$1000+ per track would be an "OK to Good" deal for perpetuity and exclusivity.

However, you can get a $35 NON-Exclusive license easy on virtually any RF site. AND, you still have ownership of the music - enabling you to make adjustments and move with the market as it changes.

Whoever OWNS the music is the one who profits. If you sign it away for $35, you lose, publisher wins.
Old 11th October 2017
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Thanks very much for the in-depth response! Much appreciated. I will propose more generous terms and decline project if I can't get a more composer-friendly deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Yes. Because of :

Perpetuity
Exclusivity
$35.00 per track
And at $35 per track, publisher has very little motivation to push your material.

HORRIBLE deal IMO.

$1000+ per track would be an "OK to Good" deal for perpetuity and exclusivity.

However, you can get a $35 NON-Exclusive license easy on virtually any RF site. AND, you still have ownership of the music - enabling you to make adjustments and move with the market as it changes.

Whoever OWNS the music is the one who profits. If you sign it away for $35, you lose, publisher wins.
Old 17th October 2017
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by generic1988 View Post
Thanks very much for the in-depth response! Much appreciated. I will propose more generous terms and decline project if I can't get a more composer-friendly deal.
i have to agree. $500 for a full album of 12 tracks is alot of work for very little payment. i think you should be expecting at least $100-$150 per track for someone just starting off that might be a bit easier to stomach even if it is in perpetuity. doing an album for $1800 upfront and back end would be fair to me but only with a music label i was pretty sure of good decent placements in the long run.
Old 20th October 2017
  #8
Gear Head
 

Doing an album for $500 is unfair but doing an album for nothing upfront isn't? I'd do the album if I were in your position. They're great guys, easy to reach and work with, and have good sub-publishing.
Old 22nd October 2017
  #9
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Arcana's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Yes. Because of :

$1000+ per track would be an "OK to Good" deal for perpetuity and exclusivity.
Who pays $1000+?
I only know of one company and last I was in touch with them they told me that they'll do no more releases this year and have very limited amount next year, but also that it’s rare for anyone to get an entire release in as they'd need to feed their best and dearest top writers.

I have music with 2 majors and AFAIK majors generally pay the most. Yet, they both paid less than what you refer to as "ok to good". So unless there's a bunch of libraries that pays well that I'm not aware off, I just don't see where OP would get $1000 a track upfront?
Off the top of my head, I can't think of no more than perhaps 3 other libraries that might hand out that sort of money, and chances of OP getting in with them are quite small I'd imagine.
Old 22nd October 2017
  #10
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
Who pays $1000+?
I only know of one company and last I was in touch with them they told me that they'll do no more releases this year and have very limited amount next year, but also that it’s rare for anyone to get an entire release in as they'd need to feed their best and dearest top writers.

I have music with 2 majors and AFAIK majors generally pay the most. Yet, they both paid less than what you refer to as "ok to good". So unless there's a bunch of libraries that pays well that I'm not aware off, I just don't see where OP would get $1000 a track upfront?
Off the top of my head, I can't think of no more than perhaps 3 other libraries that might hand out that sort of money, and chances of OP getting in with them are quite small I'd imagine.
I never said there were a "bunch", and I never said it was easy. I said that's what I want to see to feel it's a good deal - for me. That's why I'm tending to avoid the libraries that won't pay that much at this point in time. But that said, I've gotten that on dozens of songs in a bunch before.
Old 22nd October 2017
  #11
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Arcana's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I never said there were a "bunch", and I never said it was easy. I said that's what I want to see to feel it's a good deal - for me. That's why I'm tending to avoid the libraries that won't pay that much at this point in time. But that said, I've gotten that on dozens of songs in a bunch before.
Ok. But if it's "hard" and there's "just a few", then $1000 seems bit high bit for OP to aim for. If you are able to, cool, but you do have the experience and credits to demand higher fees than most of us I'd imagine.
I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a lot of well paying libraries that I wasn't aware of.
Old 22nd October 2017
  #12
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
Ok. But if it's "hard" and there's "just a few", then $1000 seems bit high bit for OP to aim for. If you are able to, cool, but you do have the experience and credits to demand higher fees than most of us I'd imagine.
I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a lot of well paying libraries that I wasn't aware of.
You're missing my point. My point was that the deal the OP stated was horrible, and that for ME to give away my copyright and masters as he was being asked to do for $35, the fee would have to be $1000+ to make me feel "OK to good" about it. If you can afford to produce your music without a budget from the majors, the opportunities for making great front end royalties alongside the back end is just too good to "give it away" for less then $1000. That's my perspective in 2017.
Old 22nd October 2017
  #13
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Arcana's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
You're missing my point. My point was that the deal the OP stated was horrible, and that for ME to give away my copyright and masters as he was being asked to do for $35, the fee would have to be $1000+ to make me feel "OK to good" about it. If you can afford to produce your music without a budget from the majors, the opportunities for making great front end royalties alongside the back end is just too good to "give it away" for less then $1000. That's my perspective in 2017.
Ah... I think I misread OP to start with. He's giving away 50% of writers share, when he's really entitled to 100%. Yeah, then $35 is a tiny amount.
Old 22nd October 2017
  #14
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drBill's Avatar
Yeah, but he's GETTING 50% of publishing. Which is just plain weird, but whatever - his backend would be the same as 100% writers, but I've never quite seen a deal like that.
Old 26th October 2017
  #15
Gear Head
 

One thing i can add is that they have been active since the early 70-ies (i low-key collect their lp's from that era)
Old 27th January 2018
  #16
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fcdj's Avatar
 

Bad experience!

Bad experience. They’re unfriendly and don’t provide enough info. Terms are confused and there’s no info about payment periods. They say that it’s a Semi-Exclusive deal but the agreement is Exclusive (no exception). Be careful!
Old 29th January 2018
  #17
Is this company a 'royalty free' music library? I saw low prices on the website.
Old 2nd February 2018
  #18
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fcdj's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Is this company a 'royalty free' music library? I saw low prices on the website.
No, it isn't.
However, it's a bad company! Be careful!
Old 2nd February 2018
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcdj View Post
No, it isn't.
However, it's a bad company! Be careful!
Thanks for the warning.
Old 10th September 2018
  #20
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Hi there, Did you ever go for that opportunity with flipper music or did you just leave it in the end?
Old 10th September 2018
  #21
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VitaEtMusica's Avatar
 

I know this is an old thread, but FWIW...

If a library was active and making good sales, and a composer wrote music that aligned well with the library's clients, I would absolutely make the deal the OP suggested. Don't know how the ownership works as far as 50% publishing, but a 50/50 syncs + 50/50 publishing deal is essentially a subpublishing deal. The main difference being ownership of the assets and the inability to walk after 3-5 years if the deal isn't working out. But if the library is solid, I don't know that you'd want to walk.

I made this same deal on a few albums years ago with no upfront money. It was extremely lucrative, mainly based on the sync split which far exceeded any kind of buyout/upfront I would have received or performance monies I did receive. No regrets.

Just another perspective...
Old 11th September 2018
  #22
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I know nothing of Flipper Music's placement rate or clients, but just assuming it's a decent library that actively shops out its catalog, I would take that deal.

I've been doing this for four years now, and as much as I would love to be selling tracks for $1000, the reality is that if I'd sat around waiting to get in with a library that pays that much up front I would still have made zero dollars off of music licensing. I'm not saying you shouldn't "value your work", but unfortunately in 2018 up front payment of any kind is very rare. There are tons of big, well connected and reputable music libraries that offer nothing up front. That's just how it is. Maybe in 4 more years I'll have the reputation, experience, and production skill to demand $1000 per track. But until then, I will keep on writing and living off the back end of the tracks I have out there. Also regarding the exclusive in perpetuity thing - that is also 95% of all the deals I've encountered. It's fine if someone represents my track forever - I'm just gonna write hundreds more like it. Can't be too emotionally attched!

If you're regularly getting big up front payments, that's great! Congrats. I wish I was too! But up front payments/advances are the only guaranteed money in music licensing, so I'd take that guaranteed $500 while building up a big catalog of published tracks that will some day support me with their back end.

For the record, I have around ~1000 tracks out there in various libraries. I've been paid up front for probably 20 of them - very small up front payments as well. But I'm doing what I need to do to make a living.

Anyway, that's just the opinion of one young guy who entered this business at the same time as a million other amateur bedroom composers that helped drive prices down. Sucks that there are so few buyout/advance deals out there now, but I'm just looking at this based on my experience. Also to reiterate, I don't know anything about Flipper Music. This is just general experience regarding the current state of library deals.
Old 12th September 2018
  #23
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenMcDonald View Post
while building up a big catalog of published tracks that will some day support me with their back end.
Congrats


Here's hoping that there IS a back end after Netflix, Amazon, Hulu and the like get done with us.....

My perspective based on Backend PRO royalties from the last 20 years....
Old 12th September 2018
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Congrats


Here's hoping that there IS a back end after Netflix, Amazon, Hulu and the like get done with us.....

My perspective based on Backend PRO royalties from the last 20 years....
I don't see it getting any better for backend royalties.

People are cutting cable and going to streaming. I cut cable myself a while back and don't really miss it all that much. There are plenty of entertainment options between Hulu, Netflix, Youtube, and over the air TV channels.

I have put enough music into music libraries in perpetuity for no upfront payment. I am not going to participate in that model anymore. The placements I get pay no more in backend royalties than placements with non-exclusive music libraries or exclusive deals with a reversion clause.

So do whatever it takes to get paid upfront. Get backend royalties as well. But don't continue to give up music to companies in perpetuity with no upfront money.
Old 8th May 2019
  #25
Here for the gear
 

Update on this company.

They were incredibly unprofessional. I received DMs from other composers who were "ghosted" after submitting their tracks. I was also ghosted, but luckily was able to use the tracks for some other non-exclusive libraries.

I would urge all library composers to stay far away.
Old 8th May 2019
  #26
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by generic1988 View Post
Update on this company.

They were incredibly unprofessional. I received DMs from other composers who were "ghosted" after submitting their tracks. I was also ghosted, but luckily was able to use the tracks for some other non-exclusive libraries.

I would urge all library composers to stay far away.
I did a couple albums for them early in my career and have nothing but good things to say... great people, well-run library, and the tracks have made good money.

Sorry to hear about your situation.
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