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Music Makes Cash? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 1 week ago
  #271
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Arcana's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Of course music is being used in new technology. But he completely misses the point. So far that I won't even comment further.

Sure, take advantage of writing for streaming services. Go for it!!
I generally like his videos, but I have to agree on that. Pointing out there's a new market, without mentioning the fact that it pays diddly squat, is a major oversight. Rather baffling really.
Old 1 week ago
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Netflix holds back on production company payouts. Production company makes producer pinch pennies. Producer tightens up the purse strings for the director. Director cheaps out and scores via prod music library instead of hiring a dedicated composer. Prod. Music library comes in too expensive, so director goes to an RF library. RF library composers can't make ends meet, so they only use sound libraries instead of musicians. Musicians find a "day gig" cause their sessions dried up. Studios are let go because composers are doing it all in house. And on and on.... It's a "race to the bottom" - bottom line trumps quality and art in general.
What a neat little fictional story, so much more to whine about when you make stuff up lol.

Netflix shows employ dedicated composers, here's a short list you can look up the rest:

House of Cards - Jeff Beal
Stranger Things - Kyle Dixon and Michael Stein
Ozark - Danny Bensi & Saunder Jurriaans
The Defenders - John Paesano
Glow - Craig Wedren
Orange Is the New Black - Gwendolyn Sanford
Narcos - Pedro Bromfman
Old 1 week ago
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Netflix shows employ dedicated composers, here's a short list you can look up the rest:
Well of course they do newguy. Employ composers that is. But if said composers are relying on traditional back end from BMI/ASCAP to make their employment viable and/or profitable, the reality is that they will need to score 100 shows instead of 1 to make the same amount they made off cable shows - all things being equal. Because at this point in the game, BMI/ASCAP is paying roughly 1/100th on Netflix shows as they are on cable shows. No whine, just simple math that is verifiable.

I hope that Jeff & the gang are making their profits on their up front creative fees rather than on back end payouts.
Old 1 week ago
  #274
Just FYI, Netflix operates in two different ways for its original content.

1) they hire/contract a production company to make a tv show or film for them. That is what they do for House of Cards, Narcos, etc.

2) Netflix itself produces a tv show with its own in-house staff and tries to be the production company in addition to being the distributor.

For 1) it’s a normal deal, no different than doing s show for CBS, FOX, etc.

For 2) the deal Netflix offers the composer is notoriously bad. Really super low fee, complete buyout including direct performance, no money for production or live instruments, etc. The few composers I know who have been approached directly have basically laughed at the deal they were offered and Netflix said it was not negotiable... so they said no.

The composers I know who are hired by an outside production company who is making the show for Netflix usually do ok. Some of the shows have small budgets, but others have decent music budgets, no different than working for any other network.
Old 1 week ago
  #275
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post

House of Cards - Jeff Beal
Stranger Things - Kyle Dixon and Michael Stein
Ozark - Danny Bensi & Saunder Jurriaans
The Defenders - John Paesano
Glow - Craig Wedren
Orange Is the New Black - Gwendolyn Sanford
Narcos - Pedro Bromfman
all of these shows are not produced directly by Netflix. They are produced by big production companies and Netflix had to bid (and win) the option for those shows. house of cards, the defenders, narcos, etc were all shopped to the big networks and Netflix and Netflix was really aggressive in winning the option agreement to own those shows.

But there is tons of b rated and c rated films and tv shows in Netflix that Netflix made themselves and paid next to nothing to make (and it shows).
Old 1 week ago
  #276
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I'd be very intrigued to know what the backends are like for a show like House of Cards. Jeff Beals work on that is pretty stunning and to think how much he could be making if it was on a primetime network. I really hope the fee is higher than a usual tv rate to give up such a huge piece of the franchise.

Has anyone seen a decrease in buyout rates recently? The last few buyout offers I've been offered have been way below what I've seen before. Library and for picture. I hope it's not a trend.
Old 1 week ago
  #277
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Netflix's own developed content is pretty awful to be fair.
Old 6 days ago
  #278
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz4 View Post
I'd be very intrigued to know what the backends are like for a show like House of Cards. Jeff Beals work on that is pretty stunning and to think how much he could be making if it was on a primetime network. I really hope the fee is higher than a usual tv rate to give up such a huge piece of the franchise.

Has anyone seen a decrease in buyout rates recently? The last few buyout offers I've been offered have been way below what I've seen before. Library and for picture. I hope it's not a trend.
That is a good question... the composers I am mixing for are doing a netflix show that is being produced by Dreamworks.

I know the budget and money are a little lower than what the composers normally get for a regular TV show... and they have no idea what the royalties are going to be like.

I would imagine when Jeff agreed to do this he probably wanted a decent amount of money up front. I have no idea if he got it though... Netflix and the production company that produces House Of Cards (Media Rights Capital, Panic Pictures, and Trigger Street Productions) probably tried to negotiate him down saying they had no money for the show as is standard operating procedure. But I have no idea what he agreed to. I do know they spent $100mil on the first 26 episodes of House Of Cards, which comes out to $3.8 mil an episode... which is right around the same amount as any other big prime time TV show's budget.

The Economics of Netflix's $100 Million New Show - The Atlantic

an interesting little footnote to this article at the end...

Quote:
*This post originally stated that Netflix owned the syndication rights to House of Cards. However, The production company Media Rights Capital own them.
That is pretty stupid of them... they pay $4mil an episode and they don't retain syndication rights?!?! The main production company they bought the show off of still does (Media Rights Capital). That just shows the inexperience and blissful ignorance of the people negotiating these deals at Netflix. Networks like CBS and FOX do get the syndications rights for the same type of deal and the same time of money!

i'm sure now that Netflix has done this a few times, they have learned their lesson... but it just highlights how this whole process is still very much the "wild west" for them and they are flying by the seat of their pants.
Old 6 days ago
  #279
Old 6 days ago
  #280
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
That is a good question... the composers I am mixing for are doing a netflix show that is being produced by Dreamworks.

I know the budget and money are a little lower than what the composers normally get for a regular TV show... and they have no idea what the royalties are going to be like.

I would imagine when Jeff agreed to do this he probably wanted a decent amount of money up front. I have no idea if he got it though... Netflix and the production company that produces House Of Cards (Media Rights Capital, Panic Pictures, and Trigger Street Productions) probably tried to negotiate him down saying they had no money for the show as is standard operating procedure. But I have no idea what he agreed to. I do know they spent $100mil on the first 26 episodes of House Of Cards, which comes out to $3.8 mil an episode... which is right around the same amount as any other big prime time TV show's budget.

The Economics of Netflix's $100 Million New Show - The Atlantic

an interesting little footnote to this article at the end...



That is pretty stupid of them... they pay $4mil an episode and they don't retain syndication rights?!?! The main production company they bought the show off of still does (Media Rights Capital). That just shows the inexperience and blissful ignorance of the people negotiating these deals at Netflix. Networks like CBS and FOX do get the syndications rights for the same type of deal and the same time of money!

i'm sure now that Netflix has done this a few times, they have learned their lesson... but it just highlights how this whole process is still very much the "wild west" for them and they are flying by the seat of their pants.

Wait one... I like you Etech, but are you saying the composers are so bad you have to remix them? I mean every since the 90's the composers I know produced a finished product. No "remixing" required. I'm confused what you say you do.
Old 6 days ago
  #281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Wait one... I like you Etech, but are you saying the composers are so bad you have to remix them? I mean every since the 90's the composers I know produced a finished product. No "remixing" required. I'm confused what you say you do.
LOL... actually it's quite the opposite. The composers are so good and so in demand they do not have time to track, mix and edit their own music. Especially when each tv episode's score is a big orchestral score or hybrid electronic and orchestra score.

While I'm mixing an episode for the composer, the composer has already moved on and is composing the score for the next episode or another episode for a different show (some composers will have anywhere from 2 or 3 shows simultaneously to 10 or more at the same time). It's not worth the composer's time to mix the episode into the required deliverables the show needs for the final dub. So they outsource the mixing to score mixers.

There are a lot of TV shows that have score mixers.

Go to imdb and look up mixers like Jim Hill. Jim mixes/mixed the scores to the TV shows: Empire, Bates Motel, Penny Dreadful, Mad Men, Fargo, Revenge, Resurrection, Vegas, etc..

Look up Phil McGowan. He mixed/mixes the scores for the TV shows: Ozark (on Netflix), The Defenders (on Netflix), Taken, Reign, Salvation, Iron Fist (on Netflix), Emerald City, Vikings, Of Kings and Prophets, etc...

Look up Steve Kaplan. He's recorded and mixed the scores for the TV shows Outlander, Agents of SHIELD, Damien, The Walking Dead, Black Sails, Da Vinci's Demons, Defiance, Constantine, Person of Interest, Battlestar Galactica, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, Human Target, Pushing Daisies, etc...

Look up Rick Riccio. He has mixed the score to almost every episode of the Simpsons.

Look up Noah Scot Snyder he is now mixing the score to each episode of the new Seth MacFarlane TV show "The Orville".

There are a lot of music mixers that not only mix the scores for films but also for TV shows. I think this forum's moderator "Narcoman" also mixes TV show scores in addition to films.
Old 6 days ago
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
LOL... actually it's quite the opposite. The composers are so good and so in demand they do not have time to track, mix and edit their own music. Especially when each tv episode's score is a big orchestral score or hybrid electronic and orchestra score.

While I'm mixing an episode for the composer, the composer has already moved on and is composing the score for the next episode or another episode for a different show (some composers will have anywhere from 2 or 3 shows simultaneously to 10 or more at the same time). It's not worth the composer's time to mix the episode into the required deliverables the show needs for the final dub. So they outsource the mixing to score mixers.

There are a lot of TV shows that have score mixers.

Go to imdb and look up mixers like Jim Hill. Jim mixes/mixed the scores to the TV shows: Empire, Bates Motel, Penny Dreadful, Mad Men, Fargo, Revenge, Resurrection, Vegas, etc..

Look up Phil McGowan. He mixed/mixes the scores for the TV shows: Ozark (on Netflix), The Defenders (on Netflix), Taken, Reign, Salvation, Iron Fist (on Netflix), Emerald City, Vikings, Of Kings and Prophets, etc...

Look up Steve Kaplan. He's recorded and mixed the scores for the TV shows Outlander, Agents of SHIELD, Damien, The Walking Dead, Black Sails, Da Vinci's Demons, Defiance, Constantine, Person of Interest, Battlestar Galactica, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, Human Target, Pushing Daisies, etc...

Look up Rick Riccio. He has mixed the score to almost every episode of the Simpsons.

Look up Noah Scot Snyder he is now mixing the score to each episode of the new Seth MacFarlane TV show "The Orville".

There are a lot of music mixers that not only mix the scores for films but also for TV shows. I think this forum's moderator "Narcoman" also mixes TV show scores in addition to films.
Still trying to get my head around this.... so you're the "clean up crew?".... the composer writes it it and moves on, and it's now your "problem" to fit it to the picture? A "re mixer" ... I guess in old world terminology it is...

I'm very familiar with "music editors" ...is that what you do?
Old 6 days ago
  #283
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Still trying to get my head around this.... so you're the "clean up crew?".... the composer writes it it and moves on, and it's now your "problem" to fit it to the picture? That is not a "re mixer" but...snit.... I guess in old world terminology it is...

I'm very familiar with "music editors" ...is that what you do?
On some tv shows there is no music editor, so I will do the checkerboarding and labeling after I mix everything.

I take the 100’s of midi and live tracks that were written to picture and I mix them down with effects and automation into a 5.1 mix, a stereo mix, an A stems stereo mix, a B stems stereo mix, and then a set of 8 to 12 instrument stems for the A set of tracks and 8 to 12 instrument stems for the B set of tracks.

From a pure mixing standpoint it’s no different than mixing anything else. Level balance, EQ, reverb, sometimes delay, compression and other effects... especially when I have raw live tracks to deal with and I’m mixing them in with midi instruments.

The composers will do their own midi demos that get sent to the director and producers for approval. After the demos are approved we track anything that needs to get recorded live and then I do the final mixes. The writing, recording and delivery all happen within a few days. The pace is really quick because there is a new episode every week. The composer will have 2 to 5 days to write 40 to 42 min of music, print it all to audio, record any live instruments, mix it, and deliver it to the dub stage for the final dub and then it starts all over again.

Most composers have a mixer or a few different mixers if they are working on a lot of shows. We are hired by the composer usually, not the production company or the studio. So we are a contractor for the composer.
Old 6 days ago
  #284
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Thank you.... for teaching me that.
Old 6 days ago
  #285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Still trying to get my head around this.... so you're the "clean up crew?".... the composer writes it it and moves on, and it's now your "problem" to fit it to the picture? A "re mixer" ... I guess in old world terminology it is...

I'm very familiar with "music editors" ...is that what you do?
Also, the mixer I give the music to is the “re mixer”. Their title is technically “re-recording mixer”.

I think the problem here is that you are for some reason thinking that the composer already mixes it. Most composers don’t really mix it. Especially if there is live stuff but even with midi only, they aren’t really mixing it, they just bounce the music out of the players as is. No real mixing happens at all with them.

It’s kind of the old adage... jack of all and master of none or master of one and jack of none. The composers I work for are phenomenal composers, but they don’t really know that much about mixing nor do they even really care to know anything about mixing... nor do they usually have a correctly tuned room acoustically to even mix in. So I can hear things in my room they can’t and I have the experience and ears to know how to fix it sonically and make it sound good.
Old 6 days ago
  #286
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To back up what Etch mentioned - very few episodic TV film composers mix their own music. 95% of the time, there's just no time to do it. Even films, or maybe I should say ESPECIALLY films these days, there's just no time. A composer is the head of a TEAM - and that's how it works. Orchestrators, Music Prep (copyists), Music Editors, Engineers, Mix Engineers, Programmers, and of course, the never mentioned ghost writers. Without a team, it's extremely difficult to keep the pace. And if you're on 2+ shows as Etch mentioned, it's virtually impossible without a well honed team. Music composition is a team sport.
Old 6 days ago
  #287
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jazz4's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
That is a good question... the composers I am mixing for are doing a netflix show that is being produced by Dreamworks.

I know the budget and money are a little lower than what the composers normally get for a regular TV show... and they have no idea what the royalties are going to be like.

I would imagine when Jeff agreed to do this he probably wanted a decent amount of money up front. I have no idea if he got it though... Netflix and the production company that produces House Of Cards (Media Rights Capital, Panic Pictures, and Trigger Street Productions) probably tried to negotiate him down saying they had no money for the show as is standard operating procedure. But I have no idea what he agreed to. I do know they spent $100mil on the first 26 episodes of House Of Cards, which comes out to $3.8 mil an episode... which is right around the same amount as any other big prime time TV show's budget.

The Economics of Netflix's $100 Million New Show - The Atlantic

an interesting little footnote to this article at the end...



That is pretty stupid of them... they pay $4mil an episode and they don't retain syndication rights?!?! The main production company they bought the show off of still does (Media Rights Capital). That just shows the inexperience and blissful ignorance of the people negotiating these deals at Netflix. Networks like CBS and FOX do get the syndications rights for the same type of deal and the same time of money!

i'm sure now that Netflix has done this a few times, they have learned their lesson... but it just highlights how this whole process is still very much the "wild west" for them and they are flying by the seat of their pants.
Interesting, thanks. I'm guessing the platform affects the actors' backend too. No way can they pull in the kind of residuals the likes of sitcom actors have on a syndicated network. Don't the Friends cast still earn millions per year each for rebroadcasts? Really surprised to hear Netflix don't retain syndication rights. Smartest guy in tv imo is Jerry Seinfeld, he understood how much money is to be made in holding rights. He's the Paul McCartney of TV.

I sure hope these composers are getting well compensated ahead of time. Tired of hearing "the budget is low."
Old 6 days ago
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
Wait one... I like you Etech, but are you saying the composers are so bad you have to remix them? I mean every since the 90's the composers I know produced a finished product. No "remixing" required. I'm confused what you say you do.
I think you might be confusing Mix, Re-mix, and Remix. Etch said he was "mixing". Mixing is setting levels, EQ, effects, etc. If you re-mix. you change the levels EQ, effects, etc, of the original "mix". If you "remix" you chop up bits and pieces of a song, and maybe add new ones, and make something new. It took me a while to figure out that "remix" was not the same as fixing someone's bad mix!

And P.S. most major ex libraries "re-mix" your cues. They have full-time engineers (like Etch), that specialize in mixing the raw files or stems of your cues.
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