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Looks like Songtradr went 'pay to play'
Old 5th May 2017
  #1
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Looks like Songtradr went 'pay to play'

Looks like Songtradr went 'pay to play' yesterday...

Strange how it looks like it is not possible for such companies to earn enough money just from licensing, I wonder, why is that so?
Old 6th May 2017
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFL View Post
Looks like Songtradr went 'pay to play' yesterday...

Strange how it looks like it is not possible for such companies to earn enough money just from licensing, I wonder, why is that so?
where do you see that? I don't see anything on their website saying you have to pay for anything.
Old 6th May 2017
  #3
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If you log in you will see it.

To be fair, there are some few free submissions every month, and then one has to pay.
Attached Thumbnails
Looks like Songtradr went 'pay to play'-songtradr.jpg  
Old 6th May 2017
  #4
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(and one credit is not one song upload, the submission to NBC is 4 'credits')
Old 8th May 2017
  #5
that is messed up!
Old 12th May 2017
  #6
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yep, they've gone all greedy & can keep their site, I'm taking down my songs (only had 2 up there anyway). Was waiting to see how the site worked out, glad I did.
Old 12th May 2017
  #7
007
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Indeed their new 2.0 website is nothing short of horrific, imo.
I'd finally found a licensing platform that seemed decent and had uploaded a few tracks and even submitted on a few of their "music wanted" listings.

Not sure what their cut was before this upgrade, but I'm seeing things like 40% commission, but if you go "pro", it's only 25%, etc.
Damn...

This new "credit" currency system is also doing my head in.
Wait, if I submit to this listing, it will cost me 4 credits of my available 35 as a free user?
If I go "pro" then I get more tokens to play this licensing roulette game?

Terrible.

Then they have this new dashboard with the "Deals" board, and the "Music Wanted" board, just to confuse things even more.
Admittedly I haven't done too much research on this new upgrade to learn more about the new features but it's confusing as f____ as it is now.
I'll head over later and see if there's an FAQ of sorts to help us figure out.
Old 30th May 2017
  #8
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I just signed up for songtradr, as of a couple weeks ago. I'm running a small independent label and we have a few masters, so I figured I'd see what it's all about. I kept getting emails about licensing opportunities, and decided to upload. I uploaded 3 masters that we have, and then it started asking for money. 30$ for a small project license, 70$ for a bigger one, and 250$ for a major license. I immediately got turned off. I thought you could submit so many songs for free? Glad I found this forum. If anyone has any REAL information on how we can start bringing some money into this machine we're called "Disc Mill Records", it would be greatly appreciated.
Old 7th June 2017
  #9
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The $30,$70,$250 prices are not for users. It's for potential buyers. They price your song for you but you can ask for more. You don't have to pay for anything unless you go pro, which lessens the percentage of commission they take (40% to 25%). Common licensing companies usually take 50% so this is a good deal. Hopes this clarifies the confusion.
Old 7th June 2017
  #10
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The $30,$70,$250 prices are not for users. It's for potential buyers. They price your song for you but you can ask for more. You don't have to pay for anything unless you go pro, which lessens the percentage of commission they take (40% to 25%). Common licensing companies usually take 50% so this is a good deal. Hopes this clarifies the confusion.
Old 12th June 2017
  #11
Here for the gear
Can someone make sense of how and WHEN commission has to be paid to Songtradr?
Is it instantly at checkout? Or when a song is actually licensed.
And especially with the "Deals" For example, if say (hypothetically) sell a song to ABC Co. and they distribute to ten Store Chains on Monday, and five Airlines on Wednesday...am I paying fifteen separate commissions? That is befuddling me right now. They do look lucrative for getting one's foot in the door, but not if I go broke paying for small change royalties.
Can someone make sense of the procedural crap?
Old 27th June 2017
  #12
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I am not boasting. I am really not. I just wanted to show a picture of how this can work. I just recently joined song trader and uploaded 10 song. So with these 10 songs I have been excepted into 6 licensing deals. The 6 will give me some sort of passive income for the next 2 yrs or more depending on the length of the contract. I have 107 views from all of the opportunities i have submitted to . And i have 17 songs that are currently in some sort of shortlist status. Again this is off of 10 songs. Multiple opportunities,multiple shortlists, that have resulted in 6 license deals so far. That is far more positive response than I have gotten off of any other site. Hope this helps.
Old 27th June 2017
  #13
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by reesekathy48 View Post
I am not boasting. I am really not. I just wanted to show a picture of how this can work. I just recently joined song trader and uploaded 10 song. So with these 10 songs I have been excepted into 6 licensing deals. The 6 will give me some sort of passive income for the next 2 yrs or more depending on the length of the contract. I have 107 views from all of the opportunities i have submitted to . And i have 17 songs that are currently in some sort of shortlist status. Again this is off of 10 songs. Multiple opportunities,multiple shortlists, that have resulted in 6 license deals so far. That is far more positive response than I have gotten off of any other site. Hope this helps.
Yeah one post guy.
Old 27th June 2017
  #14
007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic audio View Post
Yeah one post guy.
She seems legit, I just checked out her stuff, pretty cool.
Old 14th October 2018
  #15
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Earnings question

Quote:
Originally Posted by reesekathy48 View Post
I am not boasting. I am really not. I just wanted to show a picture of how this can work. I just recently joined song trader and uploaded 10 song. So with these 10 songs I have been excepted into 6 licensing deals. The 6 will give me some sort of passive income for the next 2 yrs or more depending on the length of the contract. I have 107 views from all of the opportunities i have submitted to . And i have 17 songs that are currently in some sort of shortlist status. Again this is off of 10 songs. Multiple opportunities,multiple shortlists, that have resulted in 6 license deals so far. That is far more positive response than I have gotten off of any other site. Hope this helps.
Hi, it's quite hard to see find out people are earning from Songtradr, and I wondered if you'd be willing to share what you've earned with them so far - in 15 months or so.
Old 14th October 2018
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

I bet it starts with a zero.
Old 14th October 2018
  #17
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Old 16th October 2018
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

A year ago, I experimented and gave then 10 NE tracks.

I get emails practically begging to sign up for a "Free month" of Songtradr services.

Quite frankly, I think they are going under.

I have 4 tracks, in 4 different countrywide blanket licenses and just grossed 5 bucks for this quarter.
Old 26th June 2019
  #19
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Reviving this thread because I just read this puff piece. Songtradr Article

Two things that jump out are, first that they are quoting revenue growth from 2017 in a 2019 article (and not amazing growth at that). And second that they are claiming distribution of $333m to their artists and record company partners... in 2017. I must be missing a key piece of their revenue, like maybe distribution on streaming services makes them a lot of money. But all they talk about in the article is sync. Now to put that in perspective, if it were only sync revenue distributed to artists to the tune of 333m, and that doesn't include Songtradr's cut of the sync? That would be sync revenue in the neighborhood of at least 5x a UPM. Songtradr isn't exactly a production music company, but still... That would also mean that Songtradr is distributing about 30% as much money as PRO's like ASCAP and BMI who rep millions of songs and plays.

If it's so, good for Songtradr. That's amazing. But there's no talk of revenue based on selling the dream/pay to play, which I suspect is a big part of any money they're making at this point. Pay them $50 a year for premium sync opportunities. But they are really just a Distrokid or Tunecore, aren't they?

As my good friends Bill and Ted have been heard to say, "Strange things are afoot at the Cirlce K."
Old 27th June 2019
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaEtMusica View Post
Reviving this thread because I just read this puff piece. Songtradr Article

Two things that jump out are, first that they are quoting revenue growth from 2017 in a 2019 article (and not amazing growth at that). And second that they are claiming distribution of $333m to their artists and record company partners... in 2017. I must be missing a key piece of their revenue, like maybe distribution on streaming services makes them a lot of money. But all they talk about in the article is sync. Now to put that in perspective, if it were only sync revenue distributed to artists to the tune of 333m, and that doesn't include Songtradr's cut of the sync? That would be sync revenue in the neighborhood of at least 5x a UPM. Songtradr isn't exactly a production music company, but still... That would also mean that Songtradr is distributing about 30% as much money as PRO's like ASCAP and BMI who rep millions of songs and plays.

If it's so, good for Songtradr. That's amazing. But there's no talk of revenue based on selling the dream/pay to play, which I suspect is a big part of any money they're making at this point. Pay them $50 a year for premium sync opportunities. But they are really just a Distrokid or Tunecore, aren't they?

As my good friends Bill and Ted have been heard to say, "Strange things are afoot at the Cirlce K."
I don't believe them. Like our most triumphant friends would announce - 'NO WAY!'

(Any excuse to quote Bill & Ted and I'll take it)
Old 27th June 2019
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaEtMusica View Post
Reviving this thread because I just read this puff piece. Songtradr Article

Two things that jump out are, first that they are quoting revenue growth from 2017 in a 2019 article (and not amazing growth at that). And second that they are claiming distribution of $333m to their artists and record company partners... in 2017. I must be missing a key piece of their revenue, like maybe distribution on streaming services makes them a lot of money. But all they talk about in the article is sync. Now to put that in perspective, if it were only sync revenue distributed to artists to the tune of 333m, and that doesn't include Songtradr's cut of the sync? That would be sync revenue in the neighborhood of at least 5x a UPM. Songtradr isn't exactly a production music company, but still... That would also mean that Songtradr is distributing about 30% as much money as PRO's like ASCAP and BMI who rep millions of songs and plays.

If it's so, good for Songtradr. That's amazing. But there's no talk of revenue based on selling the dream/pay to play, which I suspect is a big part of any money they're making at this point. Pay them $50 a year for premium sync opportunities. But they are really just a Distrokid or Tunecore, aren't they?

As my good friends Bill and Ted have been heard to say, "Strange things are afoot at the Cirlce K."
I think it's easy to misread the details... so it's misleading...

you have to keep in mind...

Quote:
In addition, Songtradr offers artists distribution to a wealth of digital platforms – while allowing these acts to keep 100% of their streaming royalties.
and then keep that context in mind when you read this...

Quote:
...delivering $333.1m to artists and their record companies that year.
So none of that $333.1mil is Songtradr... 100% of it is just a straight pass through. $333mil from streaming of 450,000 unique titles is not out of the realm of possibility. That's roughly $900k per day on average. Universal Music Group makes $6mil per day on average from Spotify. So $900k for a catalog that is exponentially larger isn't that far of a stretch.

And while the article mentions Songtradr had 9% growth in 2017 as stated by IFPI... it never mentions what Songtradr's actual revenue is. Keep that in mind when it mentions...

Quote:
The company continues to go from strength to strength, raising $4m in a Series A funding round in 2018 and $12m in a Series B funding round earlier this year,
Why would it need to raise $16mil in investment capital if the company itself was making $300+mil per year?

Basically Songtradr is looking at itself as a type of Pond5 or Splice or maybe even a tiny Amazon, an online marketplace but for licensing products instead of buyout products. It charges a fee to the manufacturers/product makers to have access. But it doesn't take a cut of each transaction, at least not yet, that I can see... but you can be sure with $333mil passing through their hands they are going to be coming up with ways to take a cut at some point. And that is probably how they are attracting this investment cash... "hey, we are an online B2B that facilities cash transactions over $300mil a year... we need investment infrastructure to create the ability to charge a percentage of these transactions as we continue to grow..."
Old 27th June 2019
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
So none of that $333.1mil is Songtradr... 100% of it is just a straight pass through. $333mil from streaming of 450,000 unique titles is not out of the realm of possibility. That's roughly $900k per day on average. Universal Music Group makes $6mil per day on average from Spotify. So $900k for a catalog that is exponentially larger isn't that far of a stretch.
Solid thoughts. I think the above is a super stretch, though. Each title is earning $740 a year? That seems absurd. These aren't even middle tier artists a la Kobalt/AWAL. These are no name artists. Something is way off, unless their sync business is outrageously successful.
Old 27th June 2019
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaEtMusica View Post
Solid thoughts. I think the above is a super stretch, though. Each title is earning $740 a year? That seems absurd. These aren't even middle tier artists a la Kobalt/AWAL. These are no name artists. Something is way off, unless their sync business is outrageously successful.
Well I know the COO and one of their lead Licensing Reps, although I haven't talked to them in over year now (being busy and all)... So I don't want to say anything that is not current...this is all my opinion and does not reflect any direct conversations I've had with anyone from the company...

As far as I understand it, the bulk of that $333mil is from online streaming being 100% passed through. And it's not just indie no name artists. They are actively going after indie and mid tier labels and putting their entire rosters up there.

I don't know how much money they do in Licensing now. I now the licensing reps were going after developing relationships pretty hard... and I see Songtradr at GMS events and other industry events all the time.

But if the majority of the $333mil was from licensing... and they pay out between 60~80% of the licensing fees (they keep 20~40% of the licensing fees depending on the subscription plan you have)... that means that $333mil is 70% of the licensing they are doing. That would mean they are doing $476mil in sync licensing... which just is not the case, and I know it's not the case. And...If they were bringing in $142mil in revenue (the roughly 30% average they take) they wouldn't need to do two rounds of investment funding to raise $16mil total.

I think the purpose of the article wasn't to show how much money Songtradr makes or doesn't make, but to show the potential money content creators can make by going with Songtradr instead of Source Audio or DistroKid or Tunecore or even Pond5 (although as far as I know Pond5 and Source Audio doesn't put your music up on Spotify for you).

I think Songtradr started out with the intent of being a crowd sourced music library but started to realize the potential of being an online marketplace instead... and so over the last few years they have switched focus and shifted their goals/targets towards the market place business model instead of "just another catalog". They kind of fused elements from Jingle Punks, Source Audio, Pond5 and Distrokid into one single unified platform.
Old 28th June 2019
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

Hahaha,

Not bad for a site that doesn't even have an approval process for uploaded tracks.

People can literally just upload anything.



Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaEtMusica View Post
Solid thoughts. I think the above is a super stretch, though. Each title is earning $740 a year? That seems absurd. These aren't even middle tier artists a la Kobalt/AWAL. These are no name artists. Something is way off, unless their sync business is outrageously successful.
Old 28th June 2019
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Scott View Post
Hahaha,

Not bad for a site that doesn't even have an approval process for uploaded tracks.

People can literally just upload anything.
Approval process? If you upload a wav file, you should be approved. This isn’t like applying for a mortgage loan.
Old 28th June 2019
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Approval process? If you upload a wav file, you should be approved. This isn’t like applying for a mortgage loan.
yes but there should be some sort of vetting process to ensure you aren't uploading white noise and labeling it "Pop, rock, hip-hop, jazz, country, orchestral, trailer, promo, underscore, main title theme, etc".

It ruins the music supervisor client's impression of the service if there is a bunch of unusable audio and metadata spamming.
Old 28th June 2019
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
yes but there should be some sort of vetting process to ensure you aren't uploading white noise and labeling it "Pop, rock, hip-hop, jazz, country, orchestral, trailer, promo, underscore, main title theme, etc".

It ruins the music supervisor client's impression of the service if there is a bunch of unusable audio and metadata spamming.
True. If I owned a site like this, I would definitely be spamming the competition with white noise labeled as “Epic Trailer” or “Urban Tension” and other methods of sabotage. It’s warfare out here!
Old 30th June 2019
  #28
Gear Maniac
 

This is the arrogance I would expect from you.

Even P5 and AS has an approval process before the Wav files goes live, at least a few years ago.

Don't you think if a "Publisher" has any integrity, they would want to see whats being uploaded to their data base? What if someone uploaded a song called Fu*ck Songtradr?

No, it's not like "Applying for a mortgage".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Approval process? If you upload a wav file, you should be approved. This isn’t like applying for a mortgage loan.
Old 30th June 2019
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Scott View Post
This is the arrogance I would expect from you.
Oh thanks man. That means a lot!
Old 2nd July 2019
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by lornemalvo View Post
Unfortunately, I don't know the CEO of P5 but I have been told he listens to every submission. As I understand it, he tries to approve at least 13,000 tracks a day.

I guess this is why they are the World's numero uno music library.
Yes, that’s a good thing.

A composer has to have music in the marketplace to compete. Too many composers have too much modesty and humility. They get afraid of being an “imposter”.

I don’t have those issues. For me, doing the work is all that matters. Let the marketplace argue over my genius or ignorance. I am simply here to serve up the music and collect the cash.
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