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What's your typical output per day? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th January 2017
  #31
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Bill, curious what cue you had to whiz though on Heat? Care to share? Or even PM me some info? Massive fan of that score/film and have been trying to gather as much info behind it as possible.
Old 8th January 2017
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
Bill, curious what cue you had to whiz though on Heat? Care to share? Or even PM me some info? Massive fan of that score/film and have been trying to gather as much info behind it as possible.
Honestly, I can't even remember. That whole project was such a blur.... For all I know it might have not even made it into the final cut. There were 3 different cuts being dubbed simultaneously on 3 stages @ Todd-AO and 3 sets up updates, changes, etc.. Stuff was being added, cut, swapped around, and changed faster than you could shake a stick at it. My highlight of the film was getting to play B3 on BBKings "The Thrill Is Gone". I think it was the thrill is gone.... LOL Memories.... I must really have wanted to block those particular ones out. Or maybe it's stress related....
Old 8th January 2017
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderman View Post
I think this get's back to drBill's point... Giacchino leaves at 5pm. The 10 USC grads that work on his team stay until 3am busting ass.... not to mention his orchestrator, the copyist, his personal assistants, the team IT person, the synthesist.
No doubt--a mob swirling around his freshly-created cues, helping bring them to full fruition, overlapping with the sessions. Pirhanas! Yeah, hard to count the "person hours" in a thing like that, once it's dumped from the composer's brain.

I recall an interview vid w/Elfman where he implied working 18 hours a day, for 10 years. And Desplat going from 6am to Midnight, or something, most of the time... again, prior to the Pirhanas!
Old 12th January 2017
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Honestly, I can't even remember. That whole project was such a blur.... For all I know it might have not even made it into the final cut. There were 3 different cuts being dubbed simultaneously on 3 stages @ Todd-AO and 3 sets up updates, changes, etc.. Stuff was being added, cut, swapped around, and changed faster than you could shake a stick at it. My highlight of the film was getting to play B3 on BBKings "The Thrill Is Gone". I think it was the thrill is gone.... LOL Memories.... I must really have wanted to block those particular ones out. Or maybe it's stress related....
Funny, I thought "man, I must have it pretty good" hearing your stories about UNC grads busting 12 hour days making 15$ an hour. Then yesterday I got the call saying they need a feature length soundtrack in under 10 days

Just worked my first 12 hour day since I can remember. Never thought I could write that much. Thank you Starbucks.

Last edited by Philososaxter; 12th January 2017 at 10:50 AM..
Old 12th January 2017
  #35
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If someone can get assistants in to do the work they takes up annoying time and means they can have a life, not lose their family etc, why don't people do it?

Are some composers taking longer to get the work done? Some have more expectations put on them? No one really wants to be working 18 hour days, even if it's doing what they love.

If one composer can do 9-5 no weekends for a studio picture, why can't another?

Long term it must pretty much destroy your brain, especially when you add coffee on top of that messing up your central nervous system. Your brain doesn't work properly after one day of sleep deprivation. 12 hour day I get and do, but 18 hours? Every day for weeks?
Old 12th January 2017
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
If someone can get assistants in to do the work they takes up annoying time and means they can have a life, not lose their family etc, why don't people do it?
Ego? Work obsession? There is a Japanese word "Karōshi" which means "overwork death". People literally work themselves to the grave via heart attack and stroke. I think there is a strange attraction in Hollywood for compulsive over-workers. I've met so many over the years that view insane hours as a badge of strength rather than what it actually is: unhealthy work conditions brought about by poor scheduling and planning.

Quote:
Long term it must pretty much destroy your brain, especially when you add coffee on top of that messing up your central nervous system.
I can't tolerate coffee/caffeine like I used to in my halcyon days. I'm down to drinking a cup of half-caf in the morning and sometimes one in the afternoon. It is true that consistent use builds up a tolerance which results in your body being even more tired in its absence than it otherwise would be. When working longer hours I try to be more conscientious about eating healthy food and hydrating but avoiding caffeine.

You speculated earlier in the thread that it is hard to imagine people pulling those hours without illegal substance assistance use creeping in. In my time in the biz I would say that I actually saw much less of that than I expected. The ones that leaned on it eventually crashed and burned out before they set themselves straight. (Or didn't...) But yes, there is more of that in film circles than most corporate gigs.

It IS a shame that more lead composers can't be honest in the credits and within the industry. They should give ghost writers screen credit and cue sheet credit. You ever see the list of animators & CG artists in the credits? Guess what: the music credits should look like that too. Because that is exactly how scores are getting done these days. There is a massive amount of team lifting happening to get these behemoths off the ground in the allotted time schedules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I'd go so far as to not be willing to trade my career for Hanz's or Danny's or Alan's - even if the money was traded as well. I love my lifestyle out of LA much more than having the notoriety of being a "star" composer. That's the one thing that young guys who have not lived in the trenches don't understand. The job extracts a heavy toll.....
I fully believe that. The film title Koyaanisqatsi comes to mind. It is a synthesized word from the Hopi languages meaning "life out of balance". (I've come full circle to quoting words from foreign languages.) You have to carefully consider what you want for your life and your family. My wife is a psychologist and serves a population that consists of lots of kids some of whom come from ENORMOUSLY financially-successful families. (i.e. likely billionaire) There is a sweet spot for income & work ethic. When you get way beyond that you can cause a lot of damage to all your close relationships. It sends a strong message to your kids when your actions convey that it is more important to work on Stupid Blockbuster sequel 6 than spend any time with them.

Find the sweet spot. Be healthy & happy. And make some music too.
-Sam
Old 12th January 2017
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
Your brain doesn't work properly after one day of sleep deprivation. 12 hour day I get and do, but 18 hours? Every day for weeks?
Only the strong survive in this game!
Old 12th January 2017
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
Only the strong survive in this game!
Wouldn't call it strong. More masochistic.

The 9-5 guy just scored the recent Star Wars film.
Old 12th January 2017
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Watson View Post
Ego? Work obsession? There is a Japanese word "Karōshi" which means "overwork death". People literally work themselves to the grave via heart attack and stroke. I think there is a strange attraction in Hollywood for compulsive over-workers. I've met so many over the years that view insane hours as a badge of strength rather than what it actually is: unhealthy work conditions brought about by poor scheduling and planning.



I can't tolerate coffee/caffeine like I used to in my halcyon days. I'm down to drinking a cup of half-caf in the morning and sometimes one in the afternoon. It is true that consistent use builds up a tolerance which results in your body being even more tired in its absence than it otherwise would be. When working longer hours I try to be more conscientious about eating healthy food and hydrating but avoiding caffeine.

You speculated earlier in the thread that it is hard to imagine people pulling those hours without illegal substance assistance use creeping in. In my time in the biz I would say that I actually saw much less of that than I expected. The ones that leaned on it eventually crashed and burned out before they set themselves straight. (Or didn't...) But yes, there is more of that in film circles than most corporate gigs.

It IS a shame that more lead composers can't be honest in the credits and within the industry. They should give ghost writers screen credit and cue sheet credit. You ever see the list of animators & CG artists in the credits? Guess what: the music credits should look like that too. Because that is exactly how scores are getting done these days. There is a massive amount of team lifting happening to get these behemoths off the ground in the allotted time schedules.



I fully believe that. The film title Koyaanisqatsi comes to mind. It is a synthesized word from the Hopi languages meaning "life out of balance". (I've come full circle to quoting words from foreign languages.) You have to carefully consider what you want for your life and your family. My wife is a psychologist and serves a population that consists of lots of kids some of whom come from ENORMOUSLY financially-successful families. (i.e. likely billionaire) There is a sweet spot for income & work ethic. When you get way beyond that you can cause a lot of damage to all your close relationships. It sends a strong message to your kids when your actions convey that it is more important to work on Stupid Blockbuster sequel 6 than spend any time with them.

Find the sweet spot. Be healthy & happy. And make some music too.
-Sam


Excellent post! So many solid points....
Old 12th January 2017
  #40
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As much as I don't want to call anyone out, I'm not buying the 9-5 thing. I've lived and worked in that environment for far too long. Even dub stages don't quit until 7pm.
Old 12th January 2017
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
As much as I don't want to call anyone out, I'm not buying the 9-5 thing. I've lived and worked in that environment for far too long. Even dub stages don't quit until 7pm.
My day job is outside of the music industry and I rarely work 9-5. Doing 8-6 is common and weekends are more and more common too. America works way too much, but that is how it is for most people. Even people at the top are always on call.

The expectation is that you work until the job is done. That is the culture in the workforce. Those doing a 9-5 are seen as mediocre or not as productive.

Someone is sitting on a beach somewhere collecting a check. Many others are putting in long hours to get by. Many others are searching for the opportunity to work and would put in 100 a week if it helped to take care of the family.

Work is work.
Old 12th January 2017
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
As much as I don't want to call anyone out, I'm not buying the 9-5 thing. I've lived and worked in that environment for far too long. Even dub stages don't quit until 7pm.
Eh, this is the first time in years that I've worked more than 50 hours in a week, and I work in what you might call a "major" film industry (though not the Hollywood machine). My usual work week is 35-40 hours *shrug*.
Old 12th January 2017
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philososaxter View Post
Eh, this is the first time in years that I've worked more than 50 hours in a week, and I work in what you might call a "major" film industry (though not the Hollywood machine). My usual work week is 35-40 hours *shrug*.
That just means you are one of the big dogs in the business. Congrats, you are probably at the top of the top, my friend!
Old 12th January 2017
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
That just means you are one of the big dogs in the business. Congrats, you are probably at the top of the top, my friend!


Mhmm, that's nice dear.
Old 12th January 2017
  #45
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This thread reminded me of this
Attached Thumbnails
What's your typical output per day?-68504570.jpg  
Old 12th January 2017
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philososaxter View Post
Eh, this is the first time in years that I've worked more than 50 hours in a week, and I work in what you might call a "major" film industry (though not the Hollywood machine). My usual work week is 35-40 hours *shrug*.

Virginia and Hollywood evidently work different. Dub stages in LA dub from 9:00AM to 7:00PM every day. Then, you have to do fixes, remixes, changes etc. overnight. That's a given.

Getting 100+ minutes of music done - from inception to dub stage - in 4.5 weeks don't happen on a 9-5 schedule. I don't care how many people you have working for you. Just the phone calls every day will take half a day.

Just saying'. I'm sure there are guys only working 30 hours a week, but they're generally not on the feature film grind - or if so, they are only doing films with 20 minutes of electronic music and a couple months of production.

JME.
Old 12th January 2017
  #47
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Originally Posted by MyBootsOnFire View Post
This thread reminded me of this
hahaha!!! That's more like it.
Old 13th January 2017
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Virginia and Hollywood evidently work different. Dub stages in LA dub from 9:00AM to 7:00PM every day. Then, you have to do fixes, remixes, changes etc. overnight. That's a given.

Getting 100+ minutes of music done - from inception to dub stage - in 4.5 weeks don't happen on a 9-5 schedule. I don't care how many people you have working for you. Just the phone calls every day will take half a day.

Just saying'. I'm sure there are guys only working 30 hours a week, but they're generally not on the feature film grind - or if so, they are only doing films with 20 minutes of electronic music and a couple months of production.

JME.
I don't work in the VA film industry (not that there is one lol)...the internet is a wonderful thing. But yeah, it's still apples and oranges. I just write the mockups; don't have to deal with any of the other stuff.

I'm just a nameless, faceless dude in a basement
Old 13th January 2017
  #49
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Nice. That's cool. I hope you have a window. So there is someone else that you work with that carries the burden of delivery ultimately. Films are nothing to mess with. With 10's to 100's of millions of dollars and in stone release dates riding in the balance, the music deadlines can be brutal,
Old 15th January 2017
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post

Reality? The writing process will take a bit longer than the above scenario, and some of the recording will happen during the writing process. The "real" recording of the score will probably not take a full week, but it can. Generally speaking, not much recording happens until the writing phase is finished, unless you're really, REALLY brave, but it can go on in tandem with the writing phase to some degree. At least for solo instruments, rhythm players, etc. Of course, this slows the writing down. Mixing is often happening right before or during the dubbing process, so....there is some wiggle room where the two can overlap. But the timetables on modern films are brutal and require a TEAM. It's very rare for a single person (composer) to carry the full load.
There's still a few composers out there who carry the full load .. but it seems to be a dying art.

John Williams, Alexandre Desplat, Ennio Morricone, Lalo Schifrin.

When I talk about "full load", I mean composing all of the original music, and orchestrating it as well (or, as in the case of John Williams, giving very detailed instructions and hand written score reductions to his orchestrators).
Old 15th January 2017
  #51
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I wouldn't consider John Williams as carrying the entire load - his team is just more stripped down. And I'm not sure when Lalo's last full length feature movie was, but I can't remember it. I think it's been awhile. There's no doubt you are right though - it's a dying art. But more to the point, I'd say the industry is changing so that a composer physically CAN'T carry the entire load as they used to 30 years ago. I don't think the guys who did it back in the day could compete in 2017's environment. The definition of what a composer is in 2017 is not the same as what it was in 1965. For all intents and purposes, most A level film composers today are more akin to "music producers" than old school composers at this point. Arguably.....

(BTW, my comments are specifically targeted towards feature films - not docs, TV or other media)

Last edited by drBill; 15th January 2017 at 05:27 PM..
Old 15th January 2017
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
There's still a few composers out there who carry the full load .. but it seems to be a dying art.

John Williams, Alexandre Desplat, Ennio Morricone, Lalo Schifrin.
Howard Shore, as well. All amazing musos!
Old 15th January 2017
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
There's still a few composers out there who carry the full load .. but it seems to be a dying art.

John Williams, Alexandre Desplat, Ennio Morricone, Lalo Schifrin.

When I talk about "full load", I mean composing all of the original music, and orchestrating it as well (or, as in the case of John Williams, giving very detailed instructions and hand written score reductions to his orchestrators).
John Williams has an amazing orchestrator and arranger called William Ross who actually composes additional material sometimes, too. I believe he wrote some stuff for Harry Potter. He's a phenomenal film composer in his own right so you can imagine how great it must be to have talent like that helping you out when deadlines get tough!
Old 15th January 2017
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
But more to the point, I'd say the industry is changing so that a composer physically CAN'T carry the entire load as they used to 30 years ago.
This is an astute observation. Things simply don't work like they used to work. I love that William's studio setup consists of a grand piano, two mics with tape recorder, a drafting table with manuscript paper, and formerly a moviola. The chances of any of us landing a single composing gig for media with that setup is basically ZERO.

And yes, JW does use orchestrators as Jazz4 pointed out. Another talented guy that has filled that role is Conrad Pope. (Check out his credit list! whoah. Conrad Pope - IMDb) I have known his name for a long time because my buddy hired him to score his first feature The Rising Place. I always find it interesting when a person that talented doesn't get to do more composing work and mostly stays in the orchestrator pocket.

A similar case: Don Davis of the Matrix series. Really cool bi-tonality based orchestral score with interesting aleatoric bits. Even after those blockbusters he was working as an orchestrator on Toy Story 3.

Rogue One - there are four orchestrators listed in the credits on IMDB. That's just orchestrators.

Howard Shore's last Hobbit movie has 3 others listed. Plus a slew of other music prep, editor, and coordinator roles. I'm sure his sketches he hands off are quite detailed. As are John Williams. I am not saying these people can't do the job. Just saying there is too much to do in too little time.

COMING ROUND to the original query: How much can you churn out in a day? When you are budgeting and bidding on projects don't paint yourself into a corner by scheduling for what is possible at the limits. Try to plan sanely so that when it goes insane you have a chance of still delivering. There is another thread about contracts here in the forum. In it I even lobby to build in price bumps for late delivery of the cut if the deadline doesn't move. I'm working way down the food chain from Hollywood. (As are most people reading & lurking I suspect.) Hollywood practices do not apply across the board for the industry. But it is important to know them because they can misshape expectations for the industry. Remember the very top has the money to do it inefficiently and with massive overtime. My projects do not.

Still a great thread,
Sam
Old 15th January 2017
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I wouldn't consider John Williams as carrying the entire load - his team is just more stripped down. And I'm not sure when Lalo's last full length feature movie was, but I can't remember it. I think it's been awhile. There's no doubt you are right though - it's a dying art. But more to the point, I'd say the industry is changing so that a composer physically CAN'T carry the entire load as they used to 30 years ago. I don't think the guys who did it back in the day could compete in 2017's environment. The definition of what a composer is in 2017 is not the same as what it was in 1965. For all intents and purposes, most A level film composers today are more akin to "music producers" than old school composers at this point. Arguably.....

(BTW, my comments are specifically targeted towards feature films - not docs, TV or other media)
Not really "arguably" to be honest...you're exactly right. And the little guys in this day and age also must be proficient (or at least competent) in composing, arranging, orchestrating, mixing, mastering (or rather pseudo-mastering), and last but not least, computer trouble-shooting
Old 16th January 2017
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I wouldn't consider John Williams as carrying the entire load - his team is just more stripped down. And I'm not sure when Lalo's last full length feature movie was, but I can't remember it. I think it's been awhile. There's no doubt you are right though - it's a dying art. But more to the point, I'd say the industry is changing so that a composer physically CAN'T carry the entire load as they used to 30 years ago. I don't think the guys who did it back in the day could compete in 2017's environment. The definition of what a composer is in 2017 is not the same as what it was in 1965. For all intents and purposes, most A level film composers today are more akin to "music producers" than old school composers at this point. Arguably.....

(BTW, my comments are specifically targeted towards feature films - not docs, TV or other media)
I guess it also depends a bit on how the composer approaches the whole process -- in a recent interview Alexandre Desplat mentioned that he deliberately only does maybe one or two big movies per year, in addition to smaller projects, often for European film makers. The reason is that he prefers to do all the work personally, including orchestration; and with that in mind, it just takes time. Obviously he can afford to not be a "last minute" guy.

https://youtu.be/Zoa_7ePwsZQ (I think this is the interview; not 100% sure)

He still works like an animal; 7 days a week, and not from 9 to 5.

My personal take is that directors and producers would do themselves a big favor by not letting things get to the last minute (or weeks, if you will). It rarely helps the music, or the picture. Just because you can find composer teams who can crank out a feature length score in a few weeks, doesn't mean you should.

Case in point: Lord of the Rings -- Howard had many months to develop themes, write music, experiment. The end result is a classic, great in its own right.

On the other hand, despite the huge music team on Rogue One, in my personal opinion in the end of the day the music just wasn't quite as memorable - at least not by JW standards. No disrespect to Michael Giacchino but the whole mess of replacing Alexandre Desplat's music after last minute edits did little to help the music. Even with the huge team of orchestrators, music preparation, music editors, and so on.

Well, that's just my $ 0.02 - and who cares about my opinion anyways.
Old 16th January 2017
  #57
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Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
My personal take is that directors and producers would do themselves a big favor by not letting things get to the last minute (or weeks, if you will). It rarely helps the music, or the picture.
It would be nice if it were so easy. Unfortunately, the way the biz works is different from that perception. Studios set release dates VERY far ahead of post production. They don't like changing release dates because they have so much money riding on a film. They strategize about when to EXACTLY release the film, which theaters to release it in, and which other blockbusters their baby will have to compete against - based on other studio's release dates. This is the master film enterprise juggler at work. And they time it with precision and to the best of their abilities - down to the exact week of release. Now, multiply by dozens of pictures a month being released and juggled and manipulated. It's insane.

So....

When things go sideways with the weather while shooting, when the window of opportunity for a critical actor is lost and delays re-takes, when post production screws up, when ADR hits a standstill during flu season, when literally one of a MILLION things happen, the music gets crunched down to the very final yardline. It's just the way it is. If we didn't have DAWS and if we wrote old school, studio's wouldn't DARE set release dates that far in advance. But they are well aware that we have the tools to do it, and they are well aware that production teams number in the dozens - all plowing away writing and producing the music. They don't care if the composer "writes" the score as long as he/she delivers quality product - ON TIME.

And that's why we have the critical deadlines for most (feature) projects these days. Rogue One being a good case in point. This is now a DISNEY franchise, and they have this thing marketed, tweaked and manipulated every which way from here to eternity. Do you think they thought it was a good idea to wait to start the music until a month before dubbing? Extremely doubtful. There we almost certainly multiple delays that caused Giacchino to be crunched on what was/is a huge financial endeavor for a huge franchise that WAS going to be released on time, no matter how many ghost writers it took.

Unless the business changes fundamentally, expect more of the same - or worse. And that's OK cause this is the glamour profession and we should be grateful. Right?
Old 16th January 2017
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
It would be nice if it were so easy. Unfortunately, the way the biz works is different from that perception. Studios set release dates VERY far ahead of post production. They don't like changing release dates because they have so much money riding on a film. They strategize about when to EXACTLY release the film, which theaters to release it in, and which other blockbusters their baby will have to compete against - based on other studio's release dates. This is the master film enterprise juggler at work. And they time it with precision and to the best of their abilities - down to the exact week of release. Now, multiply by dozens of pictures a month being released and juggled and manipulated. It's insane.

So....

When things go sideways with the weather while shooting, when the window of opportunity for a critical actor is lost and delays re-takes, when post production screws up, when ADR hits a standstill during flu season, when literally one of a MILLION things happen, the music gets crunched down to the very final yardline. It's just the way it is. If we didn't have DAWS and if we wrote old school, studio's wouldn't DARE set release dates that far in advance. But they are well aware that we have the tools to do it, and they are well aware that production teams number in the dozens - all plowing away writing and producing the music. They don't care if the composer "writes" the score as long as he/she delivers quality product - ON TIME.

And that's why we have the critical deadlines for most (feature) projects these days. Rogue One being a good case in point. This is now a DISNEY franchise, and they have this thing marketed, tweaked and manipulated every which way from here to eternity. Do you think they thought it was a good idea to wait to start the music until a month before dubbing? Extremely doubtful. There we almost certainly multiple delays that caused Giacchino to be crunched on what was/is a huge financial endeavor for a huge franchise that WAS going to be released on time, no matter how many ghost writers it took.

Unless the business changes fundamentally, expect more of the same - or worse. And that's OK cause this is the glamour profession and we should be grateful. Right?
Well, I understand all of those things, but none of them is acceptable.

ESPECIALLY for a company like Disney. They have all the resources and experience in the world.

Yes yes yes I understand the importance of deadlines, and that you have to plan it back from the release date. But if Walt Disney was able to release ground breaking pictures, against all odds of business and technical difficulties, then the present management has NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER.

Just look at this:

- Walt Disney was a film making pioneer in integrating music and film. Inventor of click track (Mickey Mouse), strong endorser of classical music (all the early films and later releases as well), music being front and center of all great classics (Snow White, Fantasia, and so on)

- Walt also took great risks and even risking bankruptcy getting his projects realized. Pioneer of feature film animation (Snow White).

This was DECADES AGO, before there was even a four track.

He got his **** together way back when.

NO EXCUSE!!

lol - sorry I get a little carried away as I am such a huge fan of Walt Disney
Old 16th January 2017
  #59
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Originally Posted by peter5992 View Post
Well, I understand all of those things, but none of them is acceptable.

OK then. Nothing more to say.
Old 16th January 2017
  #60
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If Johann Johannson can spend months scoring a film like Arrival or Bladerunner why can't others?
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