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Apple Loops - Never Again! Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 27th December 2016
  #1
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Apple Loops - Never Again!

This could be in the moan zone but I'm putting it here as it's pertinent to TV guys.

Only twice have I ever used stock loops in tracks submitted for TV. And twice in two weeks (different networks and shows) I have heard tracks air on those shows my tracks were accepted and delivered to using those exact same loops, but not my tracks.

Mine were effected and the midi was altered, but someone using the unaltered stock loops got the placements. Evidently Logic is too widely used now to trust the odds of this not occurring.

I've always been wary of loops in general for this reason and only used them because I was in a pinch for time. It's uncanny being burned the only two times I have. Frustrating lesson learned.
Old 27th December 2016
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old ghost View Post
This could be in the moan zone but I'm putting it here as it's pertinent to TV guys.

Only twice have I ever used stock loops in tracks submitted for TV. And twice in two weeks (different networks and shows) I have heard tracks air on those shows my tracks were accepted and delivered to using those exact same loops, but not my tracks.

Mine were effected and the midi was altered, but someone using the unaltered stock loops got the placements. Evidently Logic is too widely used now to trust the odds of this not occurring.

I've always been wary of loops in general for this reason and only used them because I was in a pinch for time. It's uncanny being burned the only two times I have. Frustrating lesson learned.
It's hard to be empathetic, because... Loops
Old 27th December 2016
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
It's hard to be empathetic, because... Loops
Oh, I know... definitely not looking for sympathy. I just figured I'd post in case it reminds anyone else to beware the karma of lazy composing. I thought altering notes, pitch, transposing and effecting was enough just these two times. Nope, and I fully deserve the result. It's actually kind of funny to me that it happened the only two times I've erred in that way. A good lesson that I'll be sure to never repeat again.

And to be clear, this wasn't just slapping loops together- it was a single melodic instrument within a larger arrangement done by hand. Still one loop too much.
Old 27th December 2016
  #4
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Originally Posted by old ghost View Post
Oh, I know... definitely not looking for sympathy. I just figured I'd post in case it reminds anyone else to beware the karma of lazy composing. I thought altering notes, pitch, transposing and effecting was enough just these two times. Nope, and I fully deserve the result. It's actually kind of funny to me that it happened the only two times I've erred in that way. A good lesson that I'll be sure to never repeat again.

And to be clear, this wasn't just slapping loops together- it was a single melodic instrument within a larger arrangement done by hand. Still one loop too much.
I still hear newly produced commercials and background music with Acid loops from early 2000's.

At least karma showed you a kindness in c*ck slapping you immediately!
Old 27th December 2016
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
I still hear newly produced commercials and background music with Acid loops from early 2000's.

At least karma showed you a kindness in c*ck slapping you immediately!
Haha, that's exactly what I said to my wife. Well, slightly different wording.
Old 27th December 2016
  #6
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I've run into it a couple times with ad pitches. You give it your all and they go with a loop someone's put forward with very little thought. Sometimes clearly isolated, which I thought you couldn't do?

The amount of documentaries I see on tv with practically untouched Evolve Mutations patches playing in the background is pretty funny, too. (I'm talking like every show on the crime channel).

It's definitely possible to use loops in a unique and creative way, but fair play to the guys landing big pitches by holding down one key. It's money for old rope.
Old 27th December 2016
  #7
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There's probably someone on another forum saying they spent hours on a pitch and some other guy with altered Apple Loops got the placement.
Old 27th December 2016
  #8
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Well, I suppose the placement biz shouldn't be any different from the record biz with regard to loops...

ACID was so interesting when it came out... I only ever used it for a scratch pad for drums and some horn parts... I never considered it being used in actual listener facing end products.

I used to be an optimist. Lol
Old 27th December 2016
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old ghost View Post
Only twice have I ever used stock loops in tracks submitted for TV. And twice in two weeks (different networks and shows) I have heard tracks air on those shows my tracks were accepted and delivered to using those exact same loops, but not my tracks.

Mine were effected and the midi was altered, but someone using the unaltered stock loops got the placements.
Did you ever stop and think that maybe the rest of your two tracks were defective, and the reason the other composers' tracks got placed had nothing to with the actual loops, but b/c their tracks were better then your tracks?
Old 27th December 2016
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz4 View Post

It's definitely possible to use loops in a unique and creative way, but fair play to the guys landing big pitches by holding down one key. It's money for old rope.
Yep, so it is. I thought that's what I was doing but I'll be a bit paranoid about it from now on.

I hear loops all over place as well. My kid was watching a cartoon and I could hear every banjo patch in Logic being used during transitions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber View Post
There's probably someone on another forum saying they spent hours on a pitch and some other guy with altered Apple Loops got the placement.
No doubt! I really didn't intend to come off as whining because the other guys got the placements. I was just frustrated with myself for not putting that last bit of effort into those to make them stand out in a year that's been lean and every dollar counts.
Old 27th December 2016
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Did you ever stop and think that maybe the rest of your two tracks were defective, and the reason the other composers' tracks got placed had nothing to with the actual loops, but b/c their tracks were better then your tracks?
Yes Jeff, that would be the first thing I would think of, but the tracks were not "defective" and they went through revisions before being accepted. And sure, it was obviously a preference of the simpler loop track over mine, and maybe that's what they were looking for. Regardless, having the same loop going on didn't help my chances of my track being used once this one had.
Old 27th December 2016
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hayat View Post
Did you ever stop and think that maybe the rest of your two tracks were defective, and the reason the other composers' tracks got placed had nothing to with the actual loops, but b/c their tracks were better then your tracks?
The point of what I realized from this is that it isn't worth it to me to have to wonder what relationship the loop had to whether or not it was used. So I'm just not going to go down that road again.

As far as "better"- I'm often not sure what that is when it comes to these type of cues. Sonically there were no issues with my track. If the track with a loop over a drum machine beat is better for the spot than real instrumentation beneath that same altered loop, then that's out of my hands. My point was I should have gone a different direction altogether.
Old 27th December 2016
  #13
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Like everything else in the music biz, it's not about "talent" - (or your track, or how good it is, or whether or not you used loops) - it's about your connections and who you know. Better luck with your tracks on your next go-around. But using loops or not is not generally a deciding factor on whether or not you're getting used. (As any cursory perusal of TV will reveal)

PS - an additional thought - as much as I sometimes hate it, simpler tracks almost always win out.
Old 27th December 2016
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Like everything else in the music biz, it's not about "talent" - (or your track, or how good it is, or whether or not you used loops) - it's about your connections and who you know. Better luck with your tracks on your next go-around. But using loops or not is not generally a deciding factor on whether or not you're getting used. (As any cursory perusing of TV will reveal)

PS - an additional thought - as much as I sometimes hate it, simpler tracks almost always win out.
Thanks. I actually had your words echoing in my head when I was comparing royalties this year. I made the mistake of thinking what worked last year would work in 2016, and sure enough it didn't and I paid for not doing more research. I'm still really new to this and always appreciate the insight from you guys who have made a viable career out of it.
Old 27th December 2016
  #15
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Originally Posted by old ghost View Post
I made the mistake of thinking what worked last year would work in 2016
Things are CONSTANTLY changing. At least at this point in time. Maybe not 10 years ago. NO LIBRARY - high end, low end or otherwise will get your tracks placed like knowing the right directors, editors, music editors etc.. Personal relationships remain king.....
Old 27th December 2016
  #16
I don't understand the original post. You used loops and someone else used the same loops. How is that a bad thing? Did you lose money?
Old 27th December 2016
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desire Inspires View Post
I don't understand the original post. You used loops and someone else used the same loops. How is that a bad thing? Did you lose money?
I only lost time. Going through the process of getting it into their hands to have essentially the same track but without any deviation from the loop get the goose just struck me as a bit uncanny, that's all. The odds of that particular loop being delivered to that same show for that episode seemed a little far out to me but evidently not.

The frustration part only came because it's a show my wife likes, and she called me up to tell me she recognized a track she'd heard me working on. So I felt like kind of a dumbass when I listened and told her that it wasn't mine.

All in all as I said I just shared this little failure in case it might remind someone to take the extra time to record your own melody line. For me it just reminded me why I always try to do so, especially considering how saturated the market is already in library music.
Old 27th December 2016
  #18
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At an different angle: most people do NOT care. At all. Maybe visit some folks who regularly smash on their TV after work for four hours and observe. The TV is - sociologically speaking - a must have numbing voice. Try to turn it off and they will literally go mad. Like a chimp without its banana.

Maybe ask them questions about the music on these shows. Or take a walk in your neighborhood. Most TVs are on. TV shows are - most of the time - for people who like to be distracted. An apple loop is the perfect medicine for that. They don't care. As long as the product is within a certain "quality" and reaches their expectations of a "show" and their expected emotions on a TV channel; all is good?

We "normally" don't read books, choose the imdb rating system before spending/wasting our time on a movie. We prefer pre-cooked burgers and instant gratification. We don't visit the Louvre. That's reality. We are human chimps. "The naked ape" by Desmond Morris explains this in more detail and more accurately. Evolutionary psychology.

It is what is.
Old 27th December 2016
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by color View Post
At an different angle: most people do NOT care. At all. Maybe visit some folks who regularly smash on their TV after work for four hours and observe. The TV is - sociologically speaking - a must have numbing voice. Try to turn it off and they will literally go mad. Like a chimp without its banana.

Maybe ask them questions about the music on these shows. Or take a walk in your neighborhood. Most TVs are on. TV shows are - most of the time - for people who like to be distracted. An apple loop is the perfect medicine for that. They don't care. As long as the product is within a certain "quality" and reaches their expectations of a "show" and their expected emotions on a TV channel; all is good?

We "normally" don't read books, choose the imdb rating system before spending/wasting our time on a movie. We prefer pre-cooked burgers and instant gratification. We don't visit the Louvre. That's reality. We are human chimps. "The naked ape" by Desmond Morris explains this in more detail and more accurately. Evolutionary psychology.

It is what is.
Oh, I agree. It's entirely possible (even likely) that I could have hired a world class harpist and recorded them at abbey road and they still would have picked the loops. I know 99 percent of other people don't care... for me personally if I'm gonna take the time to track drums and everything else, I'm going to make an effort to take it all the way and not skimp on the melody unless there's no other option. Eventually I'll get the rights to a lot of this stuff back and I'd like it to be as original as it possibly can within reason. Whether this has any effect on usage, like Bill said is negligible. Just how I feel about it now at this point in the journey.
Old 27th December 2016
  #20
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Imo, for a TV show, yes.

As an artist who tries to reach people who are socialized for a well recorded harp/guitar/drum. Definitely NO.

It's about sociology.

People who are spending their time watching TV shows normally don't listen to Mahler. So they don't care.
People who visit a concert by Mahler, performed by a reputable orchestra, care. Even so, that they spend 200 bucks for a ticket.
Old 28th December 2016
  #21
Don't take these things too seriously.

Overthinking the music scene is just as bad as underthinking it. Find a balance, get busy, and make your money.

One wave crashes and another forms. Don't worry about the falling waves, get on the ones that are rising!
Old 28th December 2016
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old ghost View Post
Mine were effected and the midi was altered, but someone using the unaltered stock loops got the placements.
You altered the original Apple Loop which means it's your own loop. The only one who would know it's from an Apple Loop is you.
I'm just not following the logic of your post here.

You didn't submit an original Apple Loop, you modified it as your own but this other person used an orignal unaltered Apple Loop which again, only you would know that.

I'm curious now that the show already air that episode, which TV series was it and what scene was it used at and what is the name of the original Apple Loop.

You subject title is Apple Loops - Never Again!, but you never submitted an original apple loop, you modified it.
Old 28th December 2016
  #23
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Originally Posted by ValliSoftware View Post
You altered the original Apple Loop which means it's your own loop. The only one who would know it's from an Apple Loop is you.
I'm just not following the logic of your post here.

You didn't submit an original Apple Loop, you modified it as your own but this other person used an orignal unaltered Apple Loop which again, only you would know that.

I'm curious now that the show already air that episode, which TV series was it and what scene was it used at and what is the name of the original Apple Loop.

You subject title is Apple Loops - Never Again!, but you never submitted an original apple loop, you modified it.
Well, I altered it but it was still similar enough that anyone here could tell it was the same loop.

I'm not really interested in getting into specifics or posting the tracks... that it happened at all is not something I'm particularly proud of. I also can't recall if there's a clause in the contract about posting exclusive tracks on social media.

I could've said loops in general- it was what I thought an obscure loop- waltz 44 in 3/4 or something... I mentioned that it was apple because moreso than some other libraries apple is likely more widespread and the chances of this happening more likely with them. I'll just be keeping that in mind from now on.

As far as the logic of my post, in a nutshell I'm just saying that I was admittedly creatively lazy because of time constraints, and coincidentally someone else created a track that was surprisingly similar to mine in feel and sound (same verse, same chorus, similar arrangement and tempo, etc.) If I could do it again I wouldn't have used the loops- I'd have tracked my own and let the chips fall where they may. It may or may not have made a difference in getting a placement but it was just an odd occurrence to me that I figured I'd share with the community. I say Apple Loops - Never Again! as both times this happened was with their loops. Since this is the only time I've ever used loops for a melody instrument it is enough to feel like that is a sign for me to avoid doing so. I realize this is not how it is for everyone and I'm just speaking for myself as my own experience is all I have to go on. I do have several other tracks with no loops that went to this season of the show, so it will be interesting to see if they are used or not.

Hopefully that makes sense somewhat and I apologize if the original post/title was unclear.

And to DI- thanks, I'm not losing sleep over it but appreciate the encouragement. Onward and upward.
Old 28th December 2016
  #24
My takeaway: Loops sound like a good idea for simple cues!
Old 29th December 2016
  #25
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For what it's worth, I only use Apple Loops rhythm/percussion stuff (with one exception which I cut and edited to the point where it's unrecognisable).

A friend of mine who used to work high up at the BBC up until 6 years ago used to tell me about how they'd get someone in house to overlay a few Apple Loops to create sound beds for programme usage, simply because there was no need to pay for usage of music.

It's what it is.
Old 29th December 2016
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by old ghost View Post
Oh, I agree. It's entirely possible (even likely) that I could have hired a world class harpist and recorded them at abbey road and they still would have picked the loops. I know 99 percent of other people don't care...
You'd be surprised. For every music sup I talk to that doesn't care, I end up talking to two or three that do. I remember one music sup from Bunim-Murray at a panel that John Fulford hosted at MI in hollywood said that he HATES stock loops. He said he gets about 150 music submissions every day... and in each submission there is between 3 and 10 tracks of audio usually. And he makes it a point to listen to everything...

He was saying that he very quickly identifies loops because he is constantly hearing the same ones used over and over... He said on the panel, if you want to stand out, do something original. When using loops everything becomes homogenized. Everything starts sounding the same... After listening to 1000 tracks in one day... all the tracks that use the same loops start to just blend together in your mind and none of them ever really stand out... and after a couple of days... you will have probably heard the same loops used hundreds if not thousands of times... day in and day out listening to all the new music that comes in... it's the ones that are DIFFERENT, that aren't using all the same stock loops as everyone else, that grab a music sup's attention.

Yes... there are clients who could care less and just go for the path of least resistance... but there are also clients that are looking for originality and uniqueness. You just have to figure out which clients are which and send them music accordingly.

Another sticky situation legally that I've been dealing with a lot lately is the legality of using commercially available/retail loops in music cues where you have to deliver the stems to the client as well. Technically, by the terms of most loop licensing agreements... you are not allowed to distribute or resell the loop on it's own as your own creation... but when you give stems to a client that licenses a track, that is exactly what you are doing... and if the client decides to just use the drum loop for 15 seconds before bringing in any other instruments... you just violated the license agreement with the loop library because now their loop by itself, outside of a musical composition, has your name on it instead of theirs.

As this industry changes, stems are becoming a HUGE topic and a big request with more and more clients. At some point commercial loop libraries may become a thing of the past in favor of sampled virtual instruments and one shots because of this very reason.

Last edited by Etch-A-Sketch; 29th December 2016 at 08:05 PM..
Old 29th December 2016
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
I remember one music sup from Bunin-Murray at a panel that John Fullford hosted at MI in hollywood ...
Apologies for the quick derail... but do recall when that was? I'm BUMMED I missed that!! (Been teaching there for... 16 years!) Sadness!!!!!

Alrighty... HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Dale
Old 29th December 2016
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Turner View Post
Apologies for the quick derail... but do recall when that was? I'm BUMMED I missed that!! (Been teaching there for... 16 years!) Sadness!!!!!

Alrighty... HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Dale
This past year (2016)... maybe in the spring? John Fulford could probably give you all the details...It was the one he did with TV music supervisors. He also did one with Film music supervisors too.
Old 29th December 2016
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Turner View Post
Apologies for the quick derail... but do recall when that was? I'm BUMMED I missed that!! (Been teaching there for... 16 years!) Sadness!!!!!

Alrighty... HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Dale
Oh, you teach there?! Very cool!!! Say hi to Donny Gruendler, Charles Chemery and Antoine Salem for me if you see them around the school. They are buddies of mine!

Cheers and happy new year!
Old 30th December 2016
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch View Post
Oh, you teach there?! Very cool!!! Say hi to Donny Gruendler, Charles Chemery and Antoine Salem for me if you see them around the school. They are buddies of mine!

Cheers and happy new year!
Oh wow! I totally know Donny! He is--quite literally--the MAN! I often see him, first thing in the morning, when I park :-) I will totally tell him hello!!! As well as Charles and Antoine, though I don't know Antoine, really... (The "guitar" dept, where I am, is sort of in its own universe.)

Well, I hope John does another one of those seminars! I'll make sure to hit it! And hoist a glass with you guys as well :-)

HAPPY NEW YEAR Derek!!!
Dale
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