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running software reverb with a desk Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 19th December 2014
  #1
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running software reverb with a desk

hey

this might belong in the computer forum. if so - please move it there.
in my search for a hardware reverb to run with my analog desk im starting to think i might be best of to buy another interface, pc and run the lexicon native bundle on there. it seems to be a lot more cost effective considering that id like to have 4 channels.

im just concerned about latency. i dont want an audible pre-delay on every preset. say id get a rme interface and run nothing but the lexicon bundle on there. what kind of "pre-delay" (in ms) are we talking about? can the plugs run standalone outside of a daw?

cheers and sorry if this is a stupid question im not too smart when it comes to computers

ps: anyone know what latency the PhoenixVerb introduces? im very interested in that one as well.
Old 19th December 2014
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
If the pre-delay became a big problem, you could duplicate the tracks in the main DAW and slide them forward a bit and use those to send. I assume you can run pretty low latency and be fine.

If you're buing th Lexi bundle, why not use it in you main DAW?
Old 19th December 2014
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
If the pre-delay became a big problem, you could duplicate the tracks in the main DAW and slide them forward a bit and use those to send. I assume you can run pretty low latency and be fine.

If you're buing th Lexi bundle, why not use it in you main DAW?
thanks

delaying tracks is not an option. i mix on a desk. so i need to apply reverb after hardware eq/comp. duplicating tracks would force me to have a desk with twice the channel count just to get around the latency - plus it would kill any kind of workflow
Old 19th December 2014
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by salomonander View Post
hey

this might belong in the computer forum. if so - please move it there.
in my search for a hardware reverb to run with my analog desk im starting to think i might be best of to buy another interface, pc and run the lexicon native bundle on there. it seems to be a lot more cost effective considering that id like to have 4 channels.

im just concerned about latency. i dont want an audible pre-delay on every preset. say id get a rme interface and run nothing but the lexicon bundle on there. what kind of "pre-delay" (in ms) are we talking about? can the plugs run standalone outside of a daw?

cheers and sorry if this is a stupid question im not too smart when it comes to computers

ps: anyone know what latency the PhoenixVerb introduces? im very interested in that one as well.
If you have a good sound card there will be no discernible latency. And yes there are ways to runs plugins outside a DAW "vstboard" I think is one. (never used it though).
Does Waves have a new product that does this now?

However the DAW itself does not cause the latency, it is your soundcard and your OS and Computer hardware that causes delays. But keep in mind all digital devices have some latency it cannot be avoided. Any time you loop-back through any digtial device of any kind there is going to be a delay. Computers are just noticeably worse since the operating system is running so much other stuff in tandem with the plugins and DAW... So in other words, a standalone plugin wrapper is not going to necessarily solve your problem. You would have to try it out. It may be better?? unlikely though. But I've used cubase as an "effects unit" with a console and there is no discernible latency with a good ASIO sound card. I'm not sure about other DAWs though.
Old 19th December 2014
  #5
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Casey's Avatar
 

Just turn the problem around. The latency is the same as using a hardware insert in a DAW environment. Either way it's just one round trip. With a good soundcard you will have no issues for reverb.



-Casey
Old 19th December 2014
  #6
Gear Addict
why not get a pcm 80/81/90/91? many people think it sounds quite a bit better than the software lex. u can score an pcm80 for less than 400 euro ..
Old 19th December 2014
  #7
Gear Head
 
Stilus's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. harrison View Post
why not get a pcm 80/81/90/91? many people think it sounds quite a bit better than the software lex. u can score an pcm80 for less than 400 euro ..
You're right! Despite the fact that I have a Lexicon 960L and TC System 6000, I also often use PCM91. Sometimes just has "something" that other two don't have.
PCM91 is great reverb!
Old 19th December 2014
  #8
I've seen James Lugo do this all the time in his videos.
Maybe ask him ?
Old 19th December 2014
  #9
I would use plug in cartoons ONLY for Pre-Fader Reverb Processing. I would use a Hardware box for POST Analog Fader Effects on a console. If I was mixing with a desk. Looping a feed from the desk back through the computer and a plug in sounds disconnected to my ears. Its a compromise and I won't do it anymore. Might work fine. That's all it is...fine....Not special. Hardware with Hardware, so that I can get it after my dynamics and EQ processing that I am doing with analog gear and without latency.
Old 19th December 2014
  #10
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Fidelis's Avatar
 

I have lots of outboard verbs here (bricasti, 480L, etc...) but sometimes, when I want a plugin verb, I send to it directly from Protools track, not from console. The problems here are two: first, the verb gets a before eq signal in. To solve it I normally eq the verb. Second, when you solo something else on the console you here the verb, so I mute it by hand when this happens.

But I agree with Casey, the latency is so small you won't feel it...
Old 19th December 2014
  #11
Lives for gear
 

It's going to be the same as anyone using softsynths or computer effects live on stage, the trick is a stripped down single purpose rig with an interface that has the lowest latency (hint RME). You don't need much of a computer for what you want to do (multiple reverb plugs) so even an old single core desktop PC or laptop will do the trick. Strip it down so it's settings are lean, mean, and for a DAW's benefit only (nothing else running on it - especially internet and anti-virus). Check the "Computer" or "Live" forums here to see what other performers are using on stage for lowest latency to run plugs, my best guess is a stand alone VST wrapper app instead of a bloated full DAW app. If you do go with a DAW app, Reaper is cheap and has one of the smallest install footprints of the DAWs out there. Remember it's best to think of this extra computer as just another pc. of outboard hardware doing it's own single purpose task.

If you are going the laptop route (you should be able to find a decent used dual core for around $150 on your local Craigslist if in the USA) and want to save some money, check out this new interface and find out what kind of ROUND TRIP latency it gets (I don't know enough about it to recomend or pan it), USBStreamer B | MiniDSP as it's only $115 for it's ADAT port I/O (8 channels). Hopefully someone here has grabbed one by now and report that to you as it came up as an option in another thread here and caught my attention. Combine that with a cheap used converter that has an ADAT port and you are in business (even an old used ADAT deck that can be had for $100 nowdays and just used for it's converters). If you are going the desktop route and it's motherboard has a PCI slot then picking up a used RME 9652 card for around $300 (get the newer version with 2 Midi I/O) will get you rock bottom latency times.

As mentioned above if you want to get fancy with timing, you can always adjust the timing of the tracks you are feeding the analog desk by adding delay to the non-reverbed tracks in the DAW app BEFORE it hits the desk, thus negating the latency of the above rig on the tracks with reverb.

Don't forget there are plenty of great used hardware verb units out there for not that much money which will not have the slight latency of the above type setup. From a time/money standpoint, just grabbing some hardware makes the most sense but if you got the time I say experiment and see what happens, then report back your experience. The great Engineers got that way from trying everything they could think of and seeing what happens (including different workflow options).
Old 19th December 2014
  #12
Lives for gear
 

hey guys

nevermind this thread. i played with my demo bricasti again today - the whole day. and i will keep it. im not a huge fan of the plates and big halls but the rooms and chambers are so totally out of this world that i will buy it. comparing them to the lexicons the lex sounds broke or like a bad joke or something (plugs and pcm92). hopefully i will get a lex later on for everything big and lush.

does anyone know if the pcm90 and 91 have random hall? i see them cheap on ebay from time to time.
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