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Dealing with phase issues with Parallel Processing in Ableton... Utility Plugins
Old 1st November 2014
  #1
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Dealing with phase issues with Parallel Processing in Ableton...

ok, I know we have had many threads discussing some of the issues in Ableton with PDC and whatnot, but I was wondering if anyone out there had a decent workaround with ableton with dealing with Parallel processing or new york style compression and getting around the phase issues with it...

I know certain plugins don't properly report their latency etc, and I know ableton is at fault on many of these issues, but what I am doing is pretty simple, and it's mind numbingly frustrating...

I have a stereo drum track I edited down, and simply want to run a couple different parallel processes on... my method is to use only ONE plugin per channel (thus minimizing or piling on with mis reported latencies etc), say Klanghelm on one track, the Waves TGI12345 etc, and then resample the track, routing its output to a new audio track.... one at a time...

So i thought that would be ok, but no, phaseolicious time, and it's weird, because it varies.... I bounced these early in the session when there was not a lot going on, with a relatively low (for ableton) buffer rate...

anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this? I am hesitant to nudge the tracks ms wise on the side, as I fear that will become a fluid chasing rabbits thing later on, and I'm not sure if doing this within a audio rack would be a better solution....

whatever, just fielding it out there to see if anyone has successful workarounds, or if my method is flawed...

Thanks!
Old 2nd November 2014
  #2
Getting something like Voxengo PHA-979 or Waves In-Phase might help, but you can get away with anything that lets you adjust very short (i.e. miliseconds) delays.
Old 2nd November 2014
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diogo_c View Post
Getting something like Voxengo PHA-979 or Waves In-Phase might help, but you can get away with anything that lets you adjust very short (i.e. miliseconds) delays.
Thanks! Will look into both!
Old 2nd November 2014
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
Thanks! Will look into both!

maybe try parallel processing in the "Audio Effect Rack";
so, make a "Chain" for each parallel process.

So for you,

1 - Chain that has nothing on it (Dry Chain)
2 - Chain with Klanghelm on it.
3 - Chain with TG1453 (or whatever number it is)

maybe that will help?...

some people like having separate mixer channels though for parallel stuff... so, I get that... and of course, Ableton should just "work" in the first place... but, till then, try this.
Old 3rd November 2014
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qb748t394 View Post
maybe try parallel processing in the "Audio Effect Rack";
so, make a "Chain" for each parallel process.

So for you,

1 - Chain that has nothing on it (Dry Chain)
2 - Chain with Klanghelm on it.
3 - Chain with TG1453 (or whatever number it is)

maybe that will help?...

some people like having separate mixer channels though for parallel stuff... so, I get that... and of course, Ableton should just "work" in the first place... but, till then, try this.
Thanks for chiming in friend, yes… I wasn't sure if putting it in a Rack made (or enabled) Ableton to deal better with PDC etc… I have thought I read that somewhere… Will definitely test it out, its frigging annoying and embarrassing that they haven't fixed this yet…. (and of course they kinda denied it was an issue, then admitted it, and then, well I don't know what they do, they just add features not really mind-blowing to my workflow, whereas simple routing should be bread and butter! )

but thanks again for your response…
Old 3rd November 2014
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
... its frigging annoying and embarrassing that they haven't fixed this yet…. ... simple routing should be bread and butter! )

but thanks again for your response…

Bread and Butter for sure!!!.. total riduculousness

I think I read it somewhere as well... I (like others) would prefer to have separate channel in the mixer for parallel, but, what ever works* right?..


*works: as in, literally, actually works.
Old 3rd November 2014
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qb748t394 View Post
Bread and Butter for sure!!!.. total riduculousness

I think I read it somewhere as well... I (like others) would prefer to have separate channel in the mixer for parallel, but, what ever works* right?..


*works: as in, literally, actually works.
absolutely. and I come off as such an ableton apologist at times, but it is so frigging annoying... a separate channel is so much better to manage then going into embedded audio racks and adjusting levels, applying eq etc... (IF that even works better... not sure, haven't checked yet, sorry!)..

I love writing with ableton, it's just a sh*tshow sometimes for some really simple things... I found myself watching 35 minute tutorials on the voxengo and waves products mentioned above, and my corneas dried up, fell out, and my mind turned to cardboard. Decided that perhaps doing this task in one of the other daws i have might be a more sane solution. Wish I didn't have to.

Pretty simple stuff here.

It's total crap. Get your engine together ableton. We really really want to like you. I don't give a flying crap what $$ you throw softube for the glue compressor, i really don't care for your audio to midi (been doing that other ways for years), or your sound libraries I don't even bother to download because I'm not going to fill my hard drives with a bunch of stuff that is sonically equivalent to my k2000...etc....

Just get your damn audio engine in order FIRST and you will find yourselves getting flamed less by detractors.... of which I am rarely one.

... so monthly rant over... sorry
Old 3rd November 2014
  #8
FWIW, the Glue is not made by Softube - it's developed by Cytomic.
Old 3rd November 2014
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diogo_c View Post
FWIW, the Glue is not made by Softube - it's developed by Cytomic.
True, I stand corrected! (I was in the middle of a rant, who needs facts when they are all lathered up? )

also Diogo_C: I was not criticizing your solutions you recommended in my rant either, they look like they could definitely help and plan on trying the Voxengo later at a friends house as he has it, so in case I looked ungrateful for your reasoned and good advice...)
Old 3rd November 2014
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
True, I stand corrected! (I was in the middle of a rant, who needs facts when they are all lathered up? )

also Diogo_C: I was not criticizing your solutions you recommended in my rant either, they look like they could definitely help and plan on trying the Voxengo later at a friends house as he has it, so in case I looked ungrateful for your reasoned and good advice...)
No worries mate.

The Voxengo is a simple but effective tool, but if you wanna dig deep into the subject I recommend you checking out Waves InPhase. It's not only good to deal with those inconsistencies in delay compensation (which should not be happening in today's DAWs) but also a great tool for lining up sources captured with different mics and also a very interesting creative tool.
Old 3rd November 2014
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lestermagneto View Post
True, I stand corrected! (I was in the middle of a rant, who needs facts when they are all lathered up? )



very funny Lester!!... I lol'd for sure... like... literally laughed out loud
Old 4th November 2014
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qb748t394 View Post



very funny Lester!!... I lol'd for sure... like... literally laughed out loud
ha! i guess i don't let little things like facts or truth get in the way sometimes of a good cathartic ableton bashing!
Old 4th November 2014
  #13
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Just freeze the track, and line it up into place. Duh.
Old 4th November 2014
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by LejonBrames View Post
Just freeze the track, and line it up into place. Duh.
Cubase can do that without having to move the track - maybe other daws can pull that trick in some way or another - but you get some visual aid by manualling lining up.
Old 4th November 2014
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LejonBrames View Post
Just freeze the track, and line it up into place. Duh.
wish it was that simple, it's a moving target in ableton.
Old 4th November 2014
  #16
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Shouldn't phase compensation take care of this? Have you checked your settings?
Old 4th November 2014
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUSICMUSIC View Post
Shouldn't phase compensation take care of this? Have you checked your settings?
Yup, I don't have this problem on my system with Logic etc.., just ableton (warp off btw), it's just that it's audio engine can be bad at proper latency reporting even with one plugin instantiated on a track... So unfortunately it's not as easy as just nudging or freezing... A track will start out sounding fine, and at different points of a song will drift here and there.... It's their fault really, (or mine for insisting on using it or wanting to stay in the same damn daw every time I want to simply parallel process a track! )....

So that's why it's a moving target.... if I could just nudge the track forward or back a few ms would be great, or visually align it, it just kinda moves in and out... :face palm:...
Old 4th November 2014
  #18
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I will try it out and report back to you. There are some parallel plugins built into Ableton too. Have you tested those plus have you switched off look ahead? Just wanna make sure it's a bug.
Old 4th November 2014
  #19
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Does anyone know what the bonus 5th VMR module is ?
Old 4th November 2014
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUSICMUSIC View Post
I will try it out and report back to you. There are some parallel plugins built into Ableton too. Have you tested those plus have you switched off look ahead? Just wanna make sure it's a bug.
Thanks MUSICMUSIC, I will check those, (you mean the stock plugs with a wet/dry control or something else?), with the stock stuff it isn't as much of a problem, as I don't even believe they are considered au/vst etc, but built into the program like Logic, therefore I don't think they have latency to report,.... but again, I could be wrong, thanks though, and I will go check out...
Old 4th November 2014
  #21
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You mentioned Klanghelm. Check if oversampling is on. I had to turn it off to get DC8C 2 to report the right delay value to Cubase for parallel compression.
Old 4th November 2014
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcrhythm View Post
You mentioned Klanghelm. Check if oversampling is on. I had to turn it off to get DC8C 2 to report the right delay value to Cubase for parallel compression.
good advice, will try!!!
Old 5th November 2014
  #23
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I've just tested it with a drum loop. The first was the original the next was a compressed version and all sounded ok until I loaded the 3rd one, no compression,and the phasing started. I then played around by loading samples to RAM, and no change, I then changed the warp algorithms from beat to complextro etc and the beats became aligned and in phase. I don't believe it was just the algorithm change though but something to do with the Warping and stretching algorithm that's being applied by ableton. I think the stretching of a sample may cause a phase shift.

I knew things were in phase by using the utility program to phase the copied signal.

I'm new to Ableton so I'm not sure on the settings.

Could you repeat your phase problem and try what I did and switch off and on the phase compensation setting.

It may happen without the plugins. I will try it with multiple copies at different tempos.
Old 5th November 2014
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUSICMUSIC View Post
I've just tested it with a drum loop. The first was the original the next was a compressed version and all sounded ok until I loaded the 3rd one, no compression,and the phasing started. I then played around by loading samples to RAM, and no change, I then changed the warp algorithms from beat to complextro etc and the beats became aligned and in phase. I don't believe it was just the algorithm change though but something to do with the Warping and stretching algorithm that's being applied by ableton. I think the stretching of a sample may cause a phase shift.

I knew things were in phase by using the utility program to phase the copied signal.

I'm new to Ableton so I'm not sure on the settings.

Could you repeat your phase problem and try what I did and switch off and on the phase compensation setting.

It may happen without the plugins. I will try it with multiple copies at different tempos.
will absolutely check it, thanks for trying yourself I'm not even using warping on this stuff… just ONE plugin per track….to keep it simple… I know that the constant SRC when things are in warp mode will create problems, that's why I avoided that… but sincerely appreciate your shootout on it and will look into your process…
Old 5th November 2014
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUSICMUSIC View Post
I've just tested it with a drum loop. The first was the original the next was a compressed version and all sounded ok until I loaded the 3rd one, no compression,and the phasing started. I then played around by loading samples to RAM, and no change, I then changed the warp algorithms from beat to complextro etc and the beats became aligned and in phase. I don't believe it was just the algorithm change though but something to do with the Warping and stretching algorithm that's being applied by ableton. I think the stretching of a sample may cause a phase shift.

I knew things were in phase by using the utility program to phase the copied signal.

I'm new to Ableton so I'm not sure on the settings.

Could you repeat your phase problem and try what I did and switch off and on the phase compensation setting.

It may happen without the plugins. I will try it with multiple copies at different tempos.
did you have phase issues without "Warp" on?
Old 7th November 2014
  #26
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Ok I think I've sussed it.

I opened a fresh set and loaded the same drum loop to 3 different audio tracks. All was phase coherent.

I then loaded just 2 drum loops and the loaded the 3rd whilst the other 2 where playing. This is when the phase problem occurred.
How did I get phase coherency back to normal? I switched WARP off of each then back on then things re-aligned. Algorithms didn't play a part so no need to touch those.
Definitely a bug but very interesting to see if it happens in other DAWs


Thanks for pointing that out lestermagneto!!

@qb748t394 Phase can be realigned with warp on. I'll see if problem disappears if I disable Warp on import, if Ableton allows it.


Thanks guys
Old 7th November 2014
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUSICMUSIC View Post
Ok I think I've sussed it.

I opened a fresh set and loaded the same drum loop to 3 different audio tracks. All was phase coherent.

I then loaded just 2 drum loops and the loaded the 3rd whilst the other 2 where playing. This is when the phase problem occurred.
How did I get phase coherency back to normal? I switched WARP off of each then back on then things re-aligned. Algorithms didn't play a part so no need to touch those.
Definitely a bug but very interesting to see if it happens in other DAWs


Thanks for pointing that out lestermagneto!!

@qb748t394 Phase can be realigned with warp on. I'll see if problem disappears if I disable Warp on import, if Ableton allows it.


Thanks guys

Good research and testing MUSICMUSIC, now i know I am getting the phase problems with the warping off, let me double check that warping was off when I performed bounces, which I am pretty certain I had off (as unless I am using it, it takes up overhead and creates the issues we are discussing here... Let me explore a little more, but it's not like the PDC problem is unknown in ableton!
Old 24th February 2015
  #28
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Hey guys. Does somebody got over the issue somehow?
Old 24th February 2015
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BDrensk View Post
Hey guys. Does somebody got over the issue somehow?
well it looks like Ableton at least admitted it existed, and supposedly the new beta "fixes" it, not sure if it works with third part plugs or not, but at least they are trying to do something about it!
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