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Loudness of tracks of EDM producers like Hardwell,Showtek,David Guetta etc. Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 30th July 2014
  #1
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Old 30th July 2014
  #2
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...you experience real dynamics in a -2,2db rms master!?

i doubt this.

only chance to push limits that far IS, first of all, a brutally cleaned out mix.....
sorry to let you hear this again....

ever tried ms mastering?

ever tried pre limiting in the mastering chain and some paralell compression techniques while multi band compression...?

ever tried to let someone else do it for you?

at least the master should come from different hands, really....
you'll never gonna squeeze your own stuff that way....

and hell, yeah, this loudnesswar sucks.....
Old 30th July 2014
  #3
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horseface's Avatar
-2.2dB RMS.



And I bet that sounds just great.

Old 30th July 2014
  #4
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You need to study audio engineering. You're not going to get your answers on a forum. Go read.
Old 30th July 2014
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianbotkiller View Post
You need to study audio engineering. You're not going to get your answers on a forum. Go read.
Lol i think this is the best advise!
Old 30th July 2014
  #6
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horseface's Avatar
Go try on the Electronic specific forum. Such insane LOUDNESS practices are generally frowned upon in here (And with good reason).

You might have better luck in the Electronic sub forum, but even people in there are starting to frown upon dynamicless music, too.
Old 30th July 2014
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horseface View Post
Go try on the Electronic specific forum. Such insane LOUDNESS practices are generally frowned upon in here (And with good reason).

You might have better luck in the Electronic sub forum, but even people in there are starting to frown upon dynamicless music, too.
"Dynamicless music"
Old 30th July 2014
  #8
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horseface's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsTHEONE View Post
Dude its not just about that Rms Level.....Its about that energy...that clarity which you have at such a high Rms!
It's not really energy, it's horrible sounding clipping and general lack of space.
The best electronic mixes I've heard never seem to go over -10dB RMS.
Old 30th July 2014
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horseface View Post
It's not really energy, it's horrible sounding clipping and general lack of space.
The best electronic mixes I've heard never seem to go over -10dB RMS.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LOUDNESS WAR AND I DON'T WANT TO ARGUE
Old 30th July 2014
  #10
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This may not be the case for you, but every time I've come upon this with any modern "dynamically minimized" track , I've found the extraneous low and very low frequency content is what prevents whatever limiter from clamping further without distortion/artifacts.

You may want to just test a HPF on your whole mix, not as a solution but more as verification. If that seems like it's the case, go back to the mix and see how low that kick and bass are settled.

Still to this day, every single time I get a track together and swear things are balanced, the first time I reference a pro mix I'm always WAY heavy on the low/low-mid range. I guess it's start a natural human instinct.
Old 30th July 2014
  #11
How do they get it so loud? In the mix, not at mastering...

Learn how to maximize space in arrangement, as well as frequency carving and different dynamics approaches. Like most things in life, it takes a little understanding and a whole lot of experience to really "get" it...

Oh, and to add some flame to the proverbial fire, high RMS levels don't necessarily mean dynamics-less music!
I used to think that, too - and the literal truth is that it lacks dynamics (if you stick to the "scientific" definition of dynamics). Then I realized how much "feel" of dynamics you can get with clever arrangement and songwriting, even if the technical RMS (and waveform) never varies...
Just some food for thought - don't jump to conclusions.
Old 30th July 2014
  #12
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"high RMS levels don't necessarily mean dynamics-less music" YUP EXACTLY!

different dynamics approaches-like??
maximize space in arrangement- how?? plz explain in little detail...
Old 30th July 2014
  #13
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login's Avatar
how do you get it?

Without ethics or concern about people hearing.

Any way, if you can't do it send it to a mastering studio and ask for it. That's it.
Old 30th July 2014
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
how do you get it?

Without ethics or concern about people hearing.

Any way, if you can't do it send it to a mastering studio and ask for it. That's it.
Dude you need to start with something.....
Old 30th July 2014
  #15
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Red Black's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsTHEONE View Post
This is cool......+1 When I imported Hardwell's upcoming track in FL studio..My master gets Red , indicating clipping but i don't hear any .
I'm guessing you imported a compressed file format?
Old 30th July 2014
  #16
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horseface's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsTHEONE View Post
THIS IS NOT ABOUT LOUDNESS WAR AND I DON'T WANT TO ARGUE
Well, it is.

If you want to be as loud as X, then you are trying to participate in the loudness war. If suddenly, everybody is as loud as X, then X will have to 'up their game' and be a little louder. This is what happens and why it has gotten to a point where things are more than ridiculous.

This is what has happened in most genres, but is most pervasive in electronic. Genres which once had a lot of space and atmosphere suddenly became dense and ended up with identical ear-raping textures. Drum 'n' Bass. Dubstep. Fratboy dance music (FDM) seems to have never been concerned with any kind of sound quality, though.

Old 30th July 2014
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by horseface View Post
Well, it is.

If you want to be as loud as X, then you are trying to participate in the loudness war. If suddenly, everybody is as loud as X, then X will have to 'up their game' and be a little louder. This is what happens and why it has gotten to a point where things are more than ridiculous.

This is what has happened in most genres, but is most pervasive in electronic. Genres which once had a lot of space and atmosphere suddenly became dense and ended up with identical ear-raping textures. Drum 'n' Bass. Dubstep. Fratboy dance music (FDM) seems to have never been concerned with any kind of sound quality, though.

Old 30th July 2014
  #18
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login's Avatar
Honestly I still think sending it to a mastering studio is a good solution, first they could come back and say to you it cant be done because your mix isn't good enough so you will focus in your mix.

All this artist getting things so loud aren't mastering themselves anyway:

If your music is good enough for this genre so that it could be played in radio or festivals then it for sure will need professional mastering.

So specially in this genre where stuff needs to be so loud I wouldn't care at all to master it myself, better focus on arrangement and mixing.
Old 30th July 2014
  #19
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Red Black's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsTHEONE View Post
Lets focus on loudness buddy
What the f**k? I'm answering your question, buddy. I need you to clarify the above so I can helpfully and accurately answer your question which has already been answered thousands of times on this forum...
Old 30th July 2014
  #20
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Originally Posted by login View Post
All this artist getting things so loud aren't mastering themselves anyway:
I don't want to be one of them....Lets focus on skills rather than thoughts
Old 30th July 2014
  #21
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Originally Posted by Red Black View Post
What the f**k? I'm answering your question, buddy. I need you to clarify the above so I can helpfully and accurately answer your question which has already been answered thousands of times on this forum...
Relax!! THANKS!! BUDDY!!!
Old 30th July 2014
  #22
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Red Black's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsTHEONE View Post
Relax!! THANKS!! BUDDY!!!
That's it, NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Old 30th July 2014
  #23
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anyone there?
Old 30th July 2014
  #24
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flying_penguin's Avatar
 

Use narrow EQ notches on everything. Multiple narrow notches per element. Notch out all frequencies that don't affect the sound of that particular element. If you do this hardcore EQ notching on every element in the track, you can then push the loudness further in the mastering stage.
Old 30th July 2014
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseface View Post
Go try on the Electronic specific forum. Such insane LOUDNESS practices are generally frowned upon in here (And with good reason).

You might have better luck in the Electronic sub forum, but even people in there are starting to frown upon dynamicless music, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
how do you get it?

Without ethics or concern about people hearing.

Any way, if you can't do it send it to a mastering studio and ask for it. That's it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by itsTHEONE View Post
"high RMS levels don't necessarily mean dynamics-less music" YUP EXACTLY!

different dynamics approaches-like??
maximize space in arrangement- how?? plz explain in little detail...
Ok, I'll break some of my immediate thoughts down a bit:

ARRANGEMENT
  • Use the song sequence to your advantages - in other words, build "dynamics" through builds. Classic example? "Us and Them" by Pink Floyd - the choruses sound huge, but take a look at the RMS levels!
  • Make sure every instrument/sound serves a purpose - don't go crazy with the "thickness", such as layering. Huge sounds are often quite thin out of context - the classic example is AC/DC, though I'm sure someone more up with modern EDM could come up with a suitable example from that genre.
  • It all pretty comes down to less is more - take a listen to Motown for examples of music that can actually be a lot less "dynamic" than you'd think (though it is quite dynamic from a "scientific" perspective).

MIX
  • CUT THE FREAKING LOWS (and highs, for that matter) - bandpassing is your friend! Make sure to get rid of ALL extraneous information - in other words, thin is in, so put your arrangement on a diet.
  • Keep your levels low - you need to be able to hear "pointy-ness" in the mix and terminate it with extreme prejudice.
  • Use every dynamics tool at your disposal - learn to use Multi-bands, sidechaining, limiting, saturation, and reverb.
  • USE LIMITERS IN THE MIX - it is a bit of a no-no when it comes to "classical mixing", but limiting elements within the mix can make it possible to really amp up their volume without risking clipping.

MASTER
  • Use multiple stages of limiting and clipping - trying to get it done with a single stage is just asking for trouble!
  • Hard-clipping is your friend! In electronic music, the usual sonic compromises of hard clipping (namely, noticeable distortion] can actually really add to the "energy" of the music. In other words, you aren't going for purity, so stop thinking as though you were!
  • If you can't get it done quickly, then you are doing something wrong - don't be afraid to go back to the mix and start over.

AND THE #1 RULE:

IN ELECTRONIC MUSIC, THE STAGES AREN'T NEARLY AS DISCRETE AS WITH "TRADITIONAL RECORDED" MUSIC!!!


In other words, in genres where the music is all just a representation of a performance (say, rock or folk or classical), the mix and master are really discrete processes, for the most part. In EDM, they are not - the "master" is really just the final stage of the "mix" - trying to break them apart is a bit foolish*.

*"Mastering" with regard to EDM is more about making coherent longer pieces than loudness and contouring - loudness and dynamics processing are such an inherent part of the sound of an EDM "producer" that it really becomes a different thing...
Old 30th July 2014
  #26
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When I reach about -3db I have distorted audio,and most important i have less stereo.....its more like in the face then what i want.
Old 30th July 2014
  #27
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@dented42ford thats it I need such kind of responses THANKS!
Old 30th July 2014
  #28
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Look up Brian Gardner from Bernie Grundman Mastering, he masters a lot of the stuff you're talking about. In his interviews he lets out snippets of some of the gear he uses, which, by the way is all modified. I've used one of the pieces he mentioned, an old Bedini B.A.S.E. Mid side processor and even though it wasn't modified if was a helluva great sounding piece.
Old 30th July 2014
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthere View Post
Look up Brian Gardner from Bernie Grundman Mastering, he masters a lot of the stuff you're talking about. In his interviews he lets out snippets of some of the gear he uses, which, by the way is all modified. I've used one of the pieces he mentioned, an old Bedini B.A.S.E. Mid side processor and even though it wasn't modified if was a helluva great sounding piece.
Yeah, Brian Gardner and Bernie Grundman just mastered one of my records fairly recently, they are extremely intelligent, and fantastic. Extremely enjoyed both their work and conversations with them….
Old 31st July 2014
  #30
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should i post my mix?
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