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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 13th December 2016
  #2851
Gear Addict
Mixer Inputs at each sample rate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janzoulou View Post
And there is still no information about the channel and the Aux / Group- count- reduction in the AVB - Mixer when using higher sample rates!!
The 48 channels and 7 Auxiliaries re not available when using higher sample rates.

I think this is a shame.

You should document things like this.
From the FAQ
1x (44.1 or 48 kHz) 48 mixer inputs
2x (88.2 or 96 kHz) 32 mixer inputs
4x (176.4 or 192 kHz) 16 mixer inputs

There is also information on how many channels you get via Thunderbolt and USB at each sample rate although it has n't been updated for USB 3.

Information on the number of AVB streams for all but the newest interfaces at each sample rate is available as well.
Old 13th December 2016
  #2852
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janzoulou View Post
The 48 channels and 7 Auxiliaries re not available when using higher sample rates.
I have found that the REVERB on my 16A is not available, when using 88.2!
Old 13th December 2016
  #2853
Here for the gear
 
Janzoulou's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
From the FAQ
1x (44.1 or 48 kHz) 48 mixer inputs
2x (88.2 or 96 kHz) 32 mixer inputs
4x (176.4 or 192 kHz) 16 mixer inputs

There is also information on how many channels you get via Thunderbolt and USB at each sample rate although it has n't been updated for USB 3.

Information on the number of AVB streams for all but the newest interfaces at each sample rate is available as well.
OK, I have just talked about the AVB -Mixer, no need to educate me in relation to ADAT or AVB Streaming.

And if a manual, a website-mainpage and even a seller in a professional shop says the mixer has 48 inputs and 7 auxiliaries and not "up to" or something like that, I call that misinformation. At least in the feature list it should be mentioned. But it isn´t...

An FAQ-page is not my place to go, to inform myself and do decisions about buying converters. I read manuals, and ask professionals about the item I am interested in. Then I buy and try out. And to be honest, I never thought that a company like MOTU would do such. I am working since 20 years with their converters and was always happy with their support and documentation.

BTW: I had a solution to them: to work on a firmware update where one could decide if he wants DSP power for Mixer - channel -streams or FX to be reduced while working in higher sample - rates. For example, I am not using the FX at all. But I need the 48 inputs in the Mixer to do my HP mixes while multi tracking...
(I talked to the support and they told me that the DSP - amount is the issue, not the streaming -format.)

They also admitted the manual-issue but also said that they would change that. But nothing happened (so far).


Cheers.
Old 13th December 2016
  #2854
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Janzoulou's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Polizzi View Post
I have found that the REVERB on my 16A is not available, when using 88.2!
And how many mixer - inputs you get??
I use a 112D and an 24o. To bad that one can not combine the DSP -Power of two items. This would also offer a great solution.

In fact I got plenty of DSP power left but can't use it...
Old 13th December 2016
  #2855
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janzoulou View Post
OK, I have just talked about the AVB -Mixer, no need to educate me in relation to ADAT or AVB Streaming.

And if a manual, a website-mainpage and even a seller in a professional shop says the mixer has 48 inputs and 7 auxiliaries and not "up to" or something like that, I call that misinformation. At least in the feature list it should be mentioned. But it isn´t...

An FAQ-page is not my place to go, to inform myself and do decisions about buying converters. I read manuals, and ask professionals about the item I am interested in. Then I buy and try out. And to be honest, I never thought that a company like MOTU would do such. I am working since 20 years with their converters and was always happy with their support and documentation.

BTW: I had a solution to them: to work on a firmware update where one could decide if he wants DSP power for Mixer - channel -streams or FX to be reduced while working in higher sample - rates. For example, I am not using the FX at all. But I need the 48 inputs in the Mixer to do my HP mixes while multi tracking...
(I talked to the support and they told me that the DSP - amount is the issue, not the streaming -format.)

They also admitted the manual-issue but also said that they would change that. But nothing happened (so far).


Cheers.
How about you calm yourself down, no need to get hostile and worked up.

I only provided the information you asked and signposted you to where you could find more information relating to what you had asked if required.

The FAQ is exactly one of the places where you need to make a habit of visiting if you really want to make well informed decision. It happened to be a commonly asked question that has already been answered.
If you check the webpages for the AVB interfaces under mixing you will find that they do say upto 48 inputs. The same is found countless times on their manuals under device tab, mixing tab for example.

The problem as you have highlighted is that the AVB interfaces while featuring improved DSP, it is still limited. The inbuilt DSP is frankly not capable of running all the features at the highest sample rates. From the manual the reverb is not available at 4x sample rates.

Users have some level of control on how much DSP is being used. All the effects have active/disable buttons. Different bands of the EQ can also be active or disabled individually. On the device tab users can also choose how many mixer inputs are needed, so you don,t have to waste DSP on inputs that are not going to be in use.

I wish they had enough DSP in these interfaces to run the mixer at max input count with all the bells and whistles at upto 192kHz, but I don't have a use scenario where this is necessary for my own workflow.

You can use the mixer and DSP of another networked MOTU AVB interface, network latency is only 30 samples one way. For example, if I had a Stage B16 front of house networked to a 1248 positioned at the control room. I could route any or all of the physical inputs on the Stage B16 to the 1248's inbuilt DSP mixer for processing.

Last edited by KimGitz; 13th December 2016 at 11:30 AM..
Old 13th December 2016
  #2856
Here for the gear
 
Janzoulou's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
How about you calm yourself down, no need to get hostile and worked up.
No problem, I am calm, but all the information you gave I was already aware of. Thanks anyway!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
If you check the webpages for the AVB interfaces under mixing you will find that they do say upto 48 inputs. The same is found countless times on their manuals under device tab, mixing tab for example.
This must have been recently changed. Last week it was missing the "up to"...
But can we agree on the fact that this information is not clearly pointed in the manual like it is in the FAQ? When i bought my items it was nowhere pointed and we had to find out on our own. We were searching for answer why the hack there was the missing AUX in the mixer and why we only get 32 inputs... Even the telephone-support in USA could not help at first. Only the support at Klemm-music (german distributor) knew about the channel counts in the AVB mixer and its relation to samplerate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
Users have some level of control on how much DSP is being used. All the effects have active/disable buttons. Different bands of the EQ can also be active or disabled individually. On the device tab users can also choose how many mixer inputs are needed, so you don,t have to waste DSP on inputs that are not going to be in use.
But this does not increase the input-counts on the mixer, so not a solution for me. I need at least 40 inputs on the mixer at 2x sample rate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
You can use the mixer and DSP of another networked MOTU AVB interface, network latency is only 30 samples one way. For example, if I had a Stage B16 front of house networked to a 1248 positioned at the control room. I could route any or all of the physical inputs on the Stage B16 to the 1248's inbuilt DSP mixer for processing.
Not at 88,2kHz, right?? The inputs on your mixer from the 1248 would only be 32.
Of course, I am aware of the routing possibilities, but I need Mixer inputs to monitor DAW outputs and Mic- inputs to HP mixes. There is always a workaround for solutions, but with these items (in my case a 112D (connected to 3 RME ADI 8QS) and a 24o, (leads me to 48 outputs and 24 inputs)) i need always to do complex changes before I start recording.
Before (3 x 2408mkIII and the 3 RME ADI QS) it was always the same setup and all my physical inputs where always represented in the CUE-Mix. I asked the support and the seller if this capability was available with the AVB - items, and the answer was it would be even better and more flexible. Hmmm.. maybe it is true, the mixer-inputs are flexible.. sometimes 48, sometimes only 32... :-)

Thanks again for your kind informations.

Last edited by Janzoulou; 13th December 2016 at 12:10 PM.. Reason: some thoughts...
Old 13th December 2016
  #2857
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emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
The FAQ is exactly one of the places where you need to make a habit of visiting if you really want to make well informed decision. It happened to be a commonly asked question that has already been answered.
As an early adopter (you'll find most of my posts in the first 15 pages) I can agree with Janzoulou. None of that information was available on release, or for quite awhile after release. In fact, it was not even acknowledged that Direct Hardware Playthrough no longer worked under Digital Performer in the first version of the manual.
Old 13th December 2016
  #2858
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janzoulou View Post
And how many mixer - inputs you get??
I use a 112D and an 24o. To bad that one can...
That's the least of my problems, Dude. I cashed in all the money I had, taking my big chance, 'officially' getting into the Recording Business - even bought a brand new, 'upgraded' MacBook Pro (i7 dual-core, which is apparently already the 'obsoleted' model now..) - and I get serious problems, AT recording sessions, WITH clients present... It's really getting demoralizing.

"Low power detected" or somesuch, spontaneously re-booting, in the middle of sessions. Like multiple times, making me look like a total Goof.

Out-of-nowhere loosing connection with the converter - and then the discover app doesn't see the 16A anymore, til I reboot it: which takes for-EVER, with Clients standing there with their 'phones on, waiting to count into their next take..

I've been relatively humble about all this - being that I don't have much experience in the digital world - y'know? ..like saying "I'm sure it's just something I'm doing wrong..".

But no: I don't think so. ..And then, as I look back at this whole experience, so far: it really makes me feel like "I've been had", when I remember that I decided to center my business on a company with a funny, 'cartoon' name... I'm starting to feel like a real idiot, here.

When it comes to my total investment, though: I am very pleased with the Gefell and Josephson mics, the RND pres, the Adam monitors, and Drawmer controller and the custom-made, 10"-thick acoustic gobos. ..but I'm all out of money now.
Old 13th December 2016
  #2859
Here for the gear
 
Janzoulou's Avatar
Joe, these problems I never had. So far everything here is rock solid, stable, and the converters sound great. Had several sessions (with workarounds regarding HP-mixes).

I would recommend not to go into sessions with clients present on a new system. Is it working now? BTW I don´t use the discovery app, I do it manually with firefox browser and IP- address. Also make sure you got the latest firmware on your item running.

Best, J
Old 13th December 2016
  #2860
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janzoulou View Post

I would recommend not to go into sessions with clients present on a new system. Is it working now?..
It's my ONLY system. No, it still does that.

I get great Fidelity recordings: but these ever-impending contingencies distract and fluster, and confuse smooth, efficient WORKFLOW.

I'm building up from a little Customer base that stems from my small-time LIVE Audio work. So they KNOW I'm just building this thing up now. But I can't go to 'commercial', pay-the-rent, LLC or whatever, til I get this all worked out.

..And I lost my long-time factory-work career 'bout half a year ago; that's when I cashed-in the little 401K, and said "well - if I'm ever going to go for it, best be NOW".

Maybe, resting future success, I'll say "it was all for the best" or "kept me humble" or something. But as things stand now, this is all rather demoralizing; kind of knocking down my confidence, undermining my resolve. Y'know? Distracting from a smooth and efficient train if thought, during sessions.

Er.
Old 17th December 2016
  #2861
Gear Addict
 
rob61's Avatar
 

Using a 16A on Windows 7 SP1, the latest drivers don't work! The MOTU Pro Audio Properties show the following:
"Windows cannot verify the digital signature for the drivers required for this device. A recent hardware or software change might have installed a file that is signed incorrectly or damaged, or that might be malicious software from an unknown source. (Code 52)"
I have downloaded and installed multiple times without success. The previous driver works (4.0.7.1271).
Old 17th December 2016
  #2862
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob61 View Post
Using a 16A on Windows 7 SP1, the latest drivers don't work! The MOTU Pro Audio Properties show the following:
"Windows cannot verify the digital signature for the drivers required for this device. A recent hardware or software change might have installed a file that is signed incorrectly or damaged, or that might be malicious software from an unknown source. (Code 52)"
I have downloaded and installed multiple times without success. The previous driver works (4.0.7.1271).
using commpand prompt launched as administrator:

bcdedit.exe -set 1 loadoptions DDISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKS
bcdedit.exe -set TESTSIGNING ON

I searched google and here is a pdf that has all three methods:
Attached Files
Old 20th December 2016
  #2863
Here for the gear
 

Hello,

Just bought a 1248. The card is a wonder, the sound, the pres, the routing,...

BUT

It's disconnecting when using Chrome..

I have to reboot,

Rebooting the card makes me experiencing BSOD, which I never had with this computer.

So they still need to work on the drivers. I hope they will improve this soon because I love it.
Old 20th December 2016
  #2864
Maybe a bit early to say, as I want to validate the results on a different system, but I did a shootout between various interfaces.
The MOTU beats them all at low latency settings. Both roundtrip latency was the best, as well as the performance, i.e. the amount of plugins I could load in a Cubase project. Windows 10, AVB 1248. Particularly interesting is the setting at 64 samples, extra buffer at 16 samples.

I must say, I am stunned, as the competition is among the best you can get.
No details until I verified (probably after Christmas), but basically, OMFG this is good.
Old 21st December 2016
  #2865
Lives for gear
 
jlaws's Avatar
Subjectively speaking, how much are you able to load down the system at 64/16? Also, with what processor if you don't mind my asking. I find I can only do so much at 64, but at 128 I can handle full projects with tons of plugins no problem. That's with a 4790k clocked at 4.7ghz, in case anyone's interested.
Old 21st December 2016
  #2866
Gear Maniac
 

Are this figures you are seeing in windows with thunderbolt or usb?
Old 21st December 2016
  #2867
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaws View Post
Subjectively speaking, how much are you able to load down the system at 64/16? Also, with what processor if you don't mind my asking. I find I can only do so much at 64, but at 128 I can handle full projects with tons of plugins no problem. That's with a 4790k clocked at 4.7ghz, in case anyone's interested.
Sorry, no hard figures yet, but it is better than any other device tested on this system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablo1980 View Post
Are this figures you are seeing in windows with thunderbolt or usb?
Both, TB being more performant and lowest latency, USB has 3rd place performance and 3rd place latency.
Old 21st December 2016
  #2868
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Maybe a bit early to say, as I want to validate the results on a different system, but I did a shootout between various interfaces.
The MOTU beats them all at low latency settings. Both roundtrip latency was the best, as well as the performance, i.e. the amount of plugins I could load in a Cubase project. Windows 10, AVB 1248. Particularly interesting is the setting at 64 samples, extra buffer at 16 samples.

I must say, I am stunned, as the competition is among the best you can get.
No details until I verified (probably after Christmas), but basically, OMFG this is good.
I hope you test both USB and Thunderbolt performance.

Any chance you can compare the network latencies as well for devices supporting Dante, Ravenna, Madi, Soundgrid and AVB.

The Motu AVB boxes are advertised to have a one way network latency of 30 samples even through upto 7 hops. at 48kHz sample rates that is well under the 2ms which is the target for AVB. At higher sample rates it is even better.

The test requires two of each plus a switch. However the Motu AVB switch can be used to test all cases since it supports the other protocols.

Now if only MOTU would make a mixer/control surface....the new Presonus StudioLive 32 Series 3 only goes upto 48kHz...which is fine for most but was really hoping for at least 96kHz.
Old 22nd December 2016
  #2869
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
I hope you test both USB and Thunderbolt performance.
I did, see above.
Quote:
Any chance you can compare the network latencies as well for devices supporting Dante, Ravenna, Madi, Soundgrid and AVB.
Pretty hard, as some devices simply don't work well with the RTL test tools. I do not test Ravenna, Soundgrid is planned for February, for AVB I need more than one device.

Testing the whole batch is pretty time intensive, especially with various buffer sizes and sample rates. The MOTU excelled @ 64 samples buffer size 44.1k but that result is so good I need to verify.
Old 24th December 2016
  #2870
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
I did, see above.
Pretty hard, as some devices simply don't work well with the RTL test tools. I do not test Ravenna, Soundgrid is planned for February, for AVB I need more than one device.

Testing the whole batch is pretty time intensive, especially with various buffer sizes and sample rates. The MOTU excelled @ 64 samples buffer size 44.1k but that result is so good I need to verify.
One of the key features is AVB. It is even in the name of the devices. I'm very interested with the networking aspects. I've been building for most of the year and intend to have the studio and actually the entire building networked.
I'd really like to know what the performance difference between the various solutions is. Unfortunately none of the reviews test networking seriously they just mostly mention it works.

It will probably take me a few more months to finish the construction so I'm hoping that towards the end of next year I will be able to make more informed decision.

I know I have said this before but I'm also hoping MOTU release a mixer/DAW controller for the AVB line, soon.
Old 26th December 2016
  #2871
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
One of the key features is AVB. It is even in the name of the devices. I'm very interested with the networking aspects. I've been building for most of the year and intend to have the studio and actually the entire building networked.
I'd really like to know what the performance difference between the various solutions is. Unfortunately none of the reviews test networking seriously they just mostly mention it works.

It will probably take me a few more months to finish the construction so I'm hoping that towards the end of next year I will be able to make more informed decision.

I know I have said this before but I'm also hoping MOTU release a mixer/DAW controller for the AVB line, soon.
The 48-channel mixer inside the motu AVB/TSN line already supports control over OSC. so a control surface with OSC and some form of program-ability should already work (ipad/lemur?)

if you're ok with buying AVB/TSN rated network switches, id say AVB is the way to go in the long run. Dante is more "in the now" and works with alot more devices, but performance is better with AVB/TSN, and that performance is guaranteed, where dante is not.
Old 26th December 2016
  #2872
Hi. I would like to know if this interfaces have time control for its outputs and also filters. I would like to conect subs and monitors and adjust the time delay of each one to properly tune the system.

Thanks
Old 26th December 2016
  #2873
Hi. I would like to know if this interfaces have time control for its outputs and also filters. I would like to conect subs and monitors and adjust the time delay of each one to properly tune the system.

Thanks
Old 27th December 2016
  #2874
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jlaws's Avatar
Nope, only high pass filters, not low pass. I kinda wish they did have them, though. Would be useful.
Old 27th December 2016
  #2875
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaws View Post
Nope, only high pass filters, not low pass. I kinda wish they did have them, though. Would be useful.
Maybe I'm missing something, but the screenshot of the mixer on MOTU's site clearly shows a 4 band EQ with a shelving option on both teh high and low bands. Seems you can do a low pass with that. Or am I misunderstanding the question?
Old 27th December 2016
  #2876
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
I did, see above.
Pretty hard, as some devices simply don't work well with the RTL test tools. I do not test Ravenna, Soundgrid is planned for February, for AVB I need more than one device.

Testing the whole batch is pretty time intensive, especially with various buffer sizes and sample rates. The MOTU excelled @ 64 samples buffer size 44.1k but that result is so good I need to verify.
Strangely enough, I cannot get it to play ball in terms of very low latency. Having acquired a Clarett 8Pre, the latter does indeed give great low latency, where as on both USB AND Thunderbolt, the 1248 lags behind. I'm using a 4670K (at stock) and Studio One 3.3.2.
Old 28th December 2016
  #2877
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emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Polizzi View Post
"Low power detected" or somesuch, spontaneously re-booting,
I see that on startup fairly often, and I've hooked an Audio Precision test set up to the same power feed to watch power at startup....power usually 122VAC at my place and still I see that message.

I have not seen spontaneous reboots. Never, I'd say.

Over the course of Discovery driver and AVB firmware updates from the initial release in 2014 I've seen system stability fluctuate unpredictably with each update. Some updates have been super stable, all units recognizing correctly at startup. I'd say half have caused either AVB unit #2 by itself or both units #1 and #2 to not be recognized at startup, and required power cycling unit #2 at least once after startup to be recognized. The current versions are up there with the worst for me, with #2 never recognized without 1, 2, or even 3 reboots of #2 , and sometimes nothing recognized, with multiple Mac restarts to gain control. I've seen at least one other version that behaved this way, and usually what happens is the next update will then run flawlessly 100% of the time.

The last Discovery update has hosed an Alphatrack controller which works fine on a a different computer with old drivers, hooked to the same AVB system, AND uninstall/reinstall of both older Discovery and Alphatrack drivers has not brought it back on the updated system, even though it's been rolled back to a version that did work.

They sound great, they are a PITA.
Old 28th December 2016
  #2878
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jlaws's Avatar
As a result of your post, DAW Plus, I tried 64/16 and amazingly it performs much better than 64/48 (which was what i had tried before) in my DAWs. It can handle a fairly full mix at that buffer setting, which is quite amazing.
Old 28th December 2016
  #2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
One of the key features is AVB. It is even in the name of the devices. I'm very interested with the networking aspects. I've been building for most of the year and intend to have the studio and actually the entire building networked.
I'd really like to know what the performance difference between the various solutions is. Unfortunately none of the reviews test networking seriously they just mostly mention it works.

It will probably take me a few more months to finish the construction so I'm hoping that towards the end of next year I will be able to make more informed decision.

I know I have said this before but I'm also hoping MOTU release a mixer/DAW controller for the AVB line, soon.
For us, priority #1 is the driver. So that is what I focused on. I did do an AVB performance test a year ago (before the Windows TB driver) and there was no performance difference when using all 48 AVB channels. I couldn't test latency as that driver version had unreliable results (which is now fixed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by magoostus View Post
if you're ok with buying AVB/TSN rated network switches, id say AVB is the way to go in the long run. Dante is more "in the now" and works with alot more devices, but performance is better with AVB/TSN, and that performance is guaranteed, where dante is not.
What performance do you refer to?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Speranza View Post
Strangely enough, I cannot get it to play ball in terms of very low latency. Having acquired a Clarett 8Pre, the latter does indeed give great low latency, where as on both USB AND Thunderbolt, the 1248 lags behind. I'm using a 4670K (at stock) and Studio One 3.3.2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaws View Post
As a result of your post, DAW Plus, I tried 64/16 and amazingly it performs much better than 64/48 (which was what i had tried before) in my DAWs. It can handle a fairly full mix at that buffer setting, which is quite amazing.
Correct, it really depends on the buffer settings. The Clarett is a good performer as well, but has a slightly higher latency and yet the MOTU offers better performance results.
Old 28th December 2016
  #2880
Lives for gear
 
zephonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Maybe a bit early to say, as I want to validate the results on a different system, but I did a shootout between various interfaces.
The MOTU beats them all at low latency settings. Both roundtrip latency was the best, as well as the performance, i.e. the amount of plugins I could load in a Cubase project. Windows 10, AVB 1248. Particularly interesting is the setting at 64 samples, extra buffer at 16 samples.

I must say, I am stunned, as the competition is among the best you can get.
No details until I verified (probably after Christmas), but basically, OMFG this is good.

Thanks for this report. MOTU has long been the champ of LLP on MacOS, good to know Windows performance is up to par.
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