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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 17th June 2015
  #1711
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted f4b0007 View Post
If I run a sin wav from an output of each device and loop it back into itself and have it sum in the box, I get a HUGE phase cancellation.
If I understand your routing correctly, it seems far more likely, that the cancelation happens because of some latency issue which isn't connected to the syncing of the units. Describe your routing more precisely please
Old 17th June 2015
  #1712
Lives for gear
 
Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Mr. Miller, as promised I've held back on the questions and am in the process of paying the new system off; it's on lay-buy.

Owned's feedback on USB performance however, albeit on the PC, has prompted me to consider using an ethernet connection to a PCI card once again instead of USB. So if I may be so bold as to bother a newly-wed...

The question is simple:
Given that you've told me that the channel capacity via ethernet is double that of USB, may I assume that tolerance of lower buffer settings would be greater? That is, would the ethernet option be less prone to glitches at low buffer settings than the USB one? I'm aware of the extra 5ms or so throughput latency ethernet imposes over the USB figure, but I figure the added stability (if indeed there is any) would enable lower buffer settings anyway, which would obviously more than compensate for this.

I'd like to not have to compromise on buffer settings whilst tracking drum VIs, for example, due to instability / glitching / clicks and pops. Considering what I'll be spending, I can't help but feel that fighting said anomalies would cheapen the experience and be at odds with the level of professionalism at which the equipment is aimed and designed for. Something akin to the PCI-424e performance I'm accustomed to would be ideal, of course.

Please, my good man, allay my fears and reassure me that the ethernet option will be more stable. I understand that few seem to have gone this route thus far and that it's possible unforeseen issues could arise, but I'm confident that you'd follow through on your earlier statement that you guys would do your best to sort them out promptly should they manifest themselves.

I very much hope the answer to the question is "yes", not least because I could then ignore the 64 / 64 limit of USB and go with 88I/O (1 x 16A and 3 x 24Ai), and not have to sell any synths, which you're no doubt aware is a very big deal to me.

Heart in mouth and stomach in a knot awaiting your response, mate. Thank you!
Old 17th June 2015
  #1713
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
MOTU.com - Firmware Change Log - MOTU Hardware

1.2.2 is out.
I have a 1248 connected by USB and ethernet. I have connected a Monitor 8 and a 112D by AVB. Each of them can be updated without changing the connection.
The Ultralite AVB is still on 1.15 and requires an ethernet connection for the update.
Update time again.

Mac(10.9.5)/TB/16A/ethernet/Monitor 8 won't allow Mon8 to update through 16A/TB connection.

Disconnect Mon8 from 16A, connect MON8 to Mac via ethernet. AVB Discovery loses all visibility to both devices and has to be quit and restarted, with or without 16A TB connection. Restart AVB Discovery, Mon8 seen again, update possible.

Finish Mon8 update, repatch Mac/ethernet/16A (TB/USB disconnected), AVB Discovery again loses visibility but this time eventually find the 16A. Update possible.

Finish 16A update, repatch Mac/TB/16A/ethernet/Mon8. AVB Stream connections are lost on both units, have to be reassigned.

Roughly 30 minutes beginning to end. No full system reboot needed this time.

FWIW, YMMV.
Old 18th June 2015
  #1714
Gear Nut
 

Motu AVB Latency

Hello, I see alot of you have been asking about latency on the new AVB line from motu. So I did some latency tests on my 16A. I just did a loopback test from analog 15 OUT to analog 1 IN.

My measurements could be a sample or 2 off, but here is what I measured so far using CoreAudio on Mac OS

See UPDATED Latency Chart! https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11133625-post1718.html
Attached Thumbnails
MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface-screen-shot-2015-06-18-6.46.09-am.jpg  

Last edited by magoostus; 20th June 2015 at 09:20 PM.. Reason: updated latency chart
Old 18th June 2015
  #1715
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by magoostus View Post
Hello, I see alot of you have been asking about latency on the new AVB line from motu. So I did some latency tests on my 16A. I just did a loopback test from analog 15 OUT to analog 1 IN.

My measurements could be a sample or 2 off, but here is what I measured so far using CoreAudio on Mac OS

See Attached Latency Chart!
Pretty close to what I experience with my mid 2012 macbook pro
Old 19th June 2015
  #1716
Gear Addict
 
drosophila's Avatar
So, the Ultralite AVB has arrived. I won't have time to really put it through its paces until this weekend, but wanted to at least post some initial impressions.

Brief summary of hardware: Windows 8.1 Pro x64 running on an Asus Maximus VII Formula mobo, Intel Core i7-4790K CPU (stock speed), 8GB G.Skill DDR3-1866, Samsung 840 Pro 256GB SSD for OS and apps, Corsair AX760 PSU, Asus R9-290 GPU. Monitors are Tannoy System 600A.

Build quality wise, I'm not quite sure what I was expecting, but I was kind of surprised and impressed at the exterior. Really nice and sturdy casing, the front panel display and controls are surprisingly intuitive, and the connections all feel solid - no weird wiggling around or connectors slouching out of their jacks slightly, which was an issue with my Echo.

Once connected, I fired up the driver installer, updated the firmware and... nothing. Not a single notable hiccup. Couldn't have been more anticlimactic.

The mixer is simultaneously intuitive and confusing, in that I know what I want it to do and can mostly get the result I want, but I'm still not 100% comfortable yet. It's vastly more flexible and modular than I'm used to, and I can see new users getting a little lost trying to setup their basic configuration. Many options, many of which are immediately clear, others that aren't. Still, if you've used a mixer before, you'll get there well enough.

As for sound quality, I'm absolutely floored. Clean, clear, and headroom for days. The light monitor hiss I used to hear even with nothing playing via my Echo has disappeared entirely, and over the past couple hours, I'm starting to feel like the Echo actually sounded like muffled crap by comparison. I don't want to gush too much, since I've only had it up and running for a short while, but thus far, I'm really, really impressed. Way beyond what I was expecting, and a considerable jump over any interface I've owned thus far.

Thanks again to other Windows users who've been posting their experiences - I might have written MOTU off entirely if not for everyone chiming in to talk about how they were getting on.

Last edited by drosophila; 19th June 2015 at 05:56 AM..
Old 19th June 2015
  #1717
Gear Maniac
 
dgkenney's Avatar
Reporting back from an earlier post re: driver disconnect.

Since switching my browser from Chrome to Firefox, I have not had the "can not communicate with driver" error message.

It is hard to say that this is the fix for that problem since the problem was periodic and it just might not have popped up over the last day or two. (Sort of like disproving the negative) But after two days of light to moderate usage, I have had no problem.

Will continue to monitor and report if anything changes
Old 19th June 2015
  #1718
Hello

New here. Happy to see mrmiller from motu to follow this thread, thanx a lot. Waiting for my ultralite avb next week, i plan to connect it to ethernet for direct audio. Any news on better latency thru direct avb and new supported format like 44.1 ? News from apple or motu....

Thanx a lot
Old 20th June 2015
  #1719
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcmusic35 View Post
Hello

New here. Happy to see mrmiller from motu to follow this thread, thanx a lot. Waiting for my ultralite avb next week, i plan to connect it to ethernet for direct audio. Any news on better latency thru direct avb and new supported format like 44.1 ? News from apple or motu....

Thanx a lot
I can do AVB latency tests with my mac the same way I did the ones earlier. I remember I messed around earlier with AVB direct to mac os and the latency was actually higher than USB or thunderbolt, and had the highest CPU usage. Thunderbolt really is the best option, usb 2nd.

I just used the the MOTU mixer to mix down some stems and I encountered alot of odd bugs with things like EQ bands not activating even though it appears to be, and stereo channel linking with the GATE inserted is really broken.
Old 20th June 2015
  #1720
Quote:
Originally Posted by magoostus View Post
I can do AVB latency tests with my mac the same way I did the ones earlier.
yes please :-) with you mac information.

--------

if i understand it well, avb does not pass midi information, so if i want to use the midi ports of the ultralite, i need to connect usb too, right?
Old 20th June 2015
  #1721
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcmusic35 View Post
yes please :-) with you mac information.

--------

if i understand it well, avb does not pass midi information, so if i want to use the midi ports of the ultralite, i need to connect usb too, right?

updated latency chart with avb tests

Test machine: iMac mid-2011 (3.4ghz) on OSX 10.10.3
Attached Thumbnails
MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface-screen-shot-2015-06-20-4.10.20-pm.jpg  

Last edited by magoostus; 20th June 2015 at 09:15 PM.. Reason: imac specs
Old 21st June 2015
  #1722
Gear Nut
 
Rafter Man's Avatar
I have the 16A running on a Windows 7 PC with Cubase 8 Pro. So far, it's been mostly good. I wouldn't suggest other PC users be put off, although I hope to eventually get a Mac so I can make use of the thunderbolt connection.

Whenever I get the "Cannot communicate with device" error, I've found that rebooting the computer and MOTU will fix it every time. I'm using Chrome as my browser. Even when I get the error message, I can still enter the IP address into my web browser to get into the unit. The only reason why i'll need to reboot the machine is so I can connect to the mixer/routing tabs through my iPad and phone. I've tried some of the suggestions about waking up from sleep and all that, but haven't noticed any difference there thus far. Rebooting the machine is really not a big deal to me, so I usually just go for that. Other times, i've found that unplugging the ethernet cable and plugging it back in will sometimes have the same effect, but haven't found this to be wholly consistent, so I usually just forego that in favor of a reboot.

One thing that I have had some issues with is gain staging through the device to record in my DAW, Cubase. On the routings page, I seem to get a pretty weak signal, weaker than usual, when I only want to send my analog inputs (which for me, are either my 6176 or Manley Core) to the "To Computer" output. I find myself having to crank up the levels on my analog in hardware much higher than on my previous interface, which was the UR 824. So what I have to do is first check the box to "mix in" my analog in signal. I will also "mix in" my "From Computer" inputs. Then, I will send both my analog in signal and "From Computer" signal to AUX 1, which I then send to my headphones for monitoring. For recording, I will then have to use the MOTU mixer's compressor, and then check the input box called "Analog in 1 Post FX" to go into the "To Computer" output. Only then do I not need to crank up the signal on my analog input hardware to record into my DAW. For the most part, I don't mind having to do this, but I really don't much care for the MOTU compressor. I just find it really squirrly and counterintuitive; but i've found this to be happening no matter which of my channel strip pres I use. My microphone is the U87Ai, btw, and I don't think that has anything to do with it. I've only found this to be a relatively minor inconvenience, but I would like the option of not needing to increase my gain above unity to forego using the MOTU's DSP effects and just send my analog hardware inputs to the "To Computer" output straight without having to use the "mix in" inputs.

I'm also still getting comfortable with the routing and would recommend people to use the routing tutorial on the MOTU site and also read the manual. I had to go through it several times and still find myself peeking into it, but it's pretty solid and has answered pretty much all my questions. I still haven't completely figured out the best way to route everything in order to use my hardware compressor for mixing while in my DAW. Simply sending the MOTU output to the comp. input and the comp. output to the MOTU input doesn't seem to be enough, as i'll often get no sound in my DAW until I turn off my External plug in insert in Cubase despite still being able to manipulate the sound by turning the dials on my comp. hardware, but i'm sure that has nothing to do with the MOTU and is just me being dyslexic and missing a step in my DAW.

Anyway, that's my experience thus far with the 16A running on a Windows 7 PC. It's definitely been a step up from my UR 824, and it's at a price point that's in a league of it's own. I've only had it for a few weeks now, and i'm sure the minor issues i've been having will be straightened out once I continue to gain a little bit more experience with the device and/or future updates.
Old 21st June 2015
  #1723
Lives for gear
 
Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Thank you to all who're posting their experiences; I'm enjoying the read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magoostus View Post
... I remember I messed around earlier with AVB direct to mac os and the latency was actually higher than USB or thunderbolt, and had the highest CPU usage. Thunderbolt really is the best option, usb 2nd.
This is exactly what I've anticipated, magoostus, but I haven't been able to extract any sort of a ball-park figure from the esteemed Mr. M.

I wonder if you could make a judgement relative to the USB overhead you experienced. You know, was it twice as CPU-intensive or whatever. This would be helpful to me in that I'm still torn between:

1) Going ethernet, retaining all my synths and running more inputs, and..
2) Reducing the size of my setup and employing USB.

The idea to go e-net appeals not just 'cause I could keep my synths, but because the USB route would mean I'd be pushing the input limit (64) even with a down-scaled system, and I'm not comfortable from what I've heard thus far when it comes to avoiding glitches, clicks and pops.

Anything you have to offer will be lapped up like a hungry mutt getting into his dinner. Thank you!
Nicky

PS: I've got the USB-sized setup on lay-buy; the extra interface required if I go e-net can simply be tacked onto the deal. Just sayin' in case you thought I already had the gear.
Old 21st June 2015
  #1724
Quote:
Originally Posted by magoostus View Post
updated latency chart with avb tests

Test machine: iMac mid-2011 (3.4ghz) on OSX 10.10.3
nice, thank you so much. we have the same mac so it's even greater!


Mr Miller, if you can , please tell us about future avb "driver" from apple or from you side that could make avb direct better latency (and be an ultra low latency audio interface as in the manual), new audio format (44.1, 88.2 and 176.4 khz) OR just tell us it will not happen (so i may go the thunderbolt way..). thanx a lot
Old 22nd June 2015
  #1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcmusic35 View Post
Mr Miller, if you can , please tell us about future avb "driver" from apple or from you side that could make avb direct better latency (and be an ultra low latency audio interface as in the manual), new audio format (44.1, 88.2 and 176.4 khz) OR just tell us it will not happen (so i may go the thunderbolt way..). thanx a lot
These are more questions for Apple. As a result, I don't really have an answer. It really comes down to driver support. Our interfaces support 44.1khz-176.4 kHz via AVB already and our latency is guaranteed .625 ms across 7 hops. But when Apple's driver will support those rates or achieve lower latency, I don't know.

If you want the lowest latency solution, I would recommend using Thunderbolt given your iMac supports it. You'll get as many channels as you would via AVB and it's a much simpler protocol, meaning less CPU overhead among other things. Using Thunderbolt does no preclude you from using AVB down the line as the driver improves, though.
Old 22nd June 2015
  #1726
Gear Head
 

Hi Mr Miller (and anyone else who can help), 16A owner here. The adat outputs on my unit are very loose, as in a cable comes out very easily from them when lightly. On the inputs they click in and stay in place but the outputs don't really click in and are very easy to pull out. Is this normal behaviour? I've tested it with a few different cables and it's always the same. They seem far too loose really. Input from other owners would be great as well. Thanks
Old 22nd June 2015
  #1727
tft
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzmonkey View Post
Hi Mr Miller (and anyone else who can help), 16A owner here. The adat outputs on my unit are very loose, as in a cable comes out very easily from them when lightly. On the inputs they click in and stay in place but the outputs don't really click in and are very easy to pull out. Is this normal behaviour? I've tested it with a few different cables and it's always the same. They seem far too loose really. Input from other owners would be great as well. Thanks
on my 112D the first adat group is ok with input and output, it fits tightly.
have to check the others if there are faulty sockets somewhere.
Old 22nd June 2015
  #1728
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
These are more questions for Apple. As a result, I don't really have an answer. It really comes down to driver support. Our interfaces support 44.1khz-176.4 kHz via AVB already and our latency is guaranteed .625 ms across 7 hops. But when Apple's driver will support those rates or achieve lower latency, I don't know.

If you want the lowest latency solution, I would recommend using Thunderbolt given your iMac supports it. You'll get as many channels as you would via AVB and it's a much simpler protocol, meaning less CPU overhead among other things. Using Thunderbolt does no preclude you from using AVB down the line as the driver improves, though.

OK, thanx a lot for you answer and your time. Unfortunately if apple don't give you, MOTU, who use AVB on their soundcards, any informations on driver update, i guess they don't care if i ask them...if it's a driver limitation it's kind of a shame not pushing toward the best with avb (from apple side), if it's a hardware limitation of the ethernet port, it's something else.

Thanx again

richard
Old 22nd June 2015
  #1729
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzmonkey View Post
Hi Mr Miller (and anyone else who can help), 16A owner here. The adat outputs on my unit are very loose, as in a cable comes out very easily from them when lightly. On the inputs they click in and stay in place but the outputs don't really click in and are very easy to pull out. Is this normal behaviour? I've tested it with a few different cables and it's always the same. They seem far too loose really. Input from other owners would be great as well. Thanks
I tried with my 16a. All sockets give a click. Inputs and outputs on both adat A and B.
Old 22nd June 2015
  #1730
Gear Head
 

Thanks milwel and tft, looks like mine might be a bit off then.
Old 23rd June 2015
  #1731
tft
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzmonkey View Post
Thanks milwel and tft, looks like mine might be a bit off then.
i checked all my adat ports now, i have 6 pairs of I/O on the 112D.
they all click in tightly (with variations in "tightness"), except one out port, which does not really click in, but seems to stay in stable, if there is no pull on the cable.
so there may be a slight problem with the buildquality of these adat sockets.
probably worth noting for mister miller ...
Old 23rd June 2015
  #1732
Here for the gear
 

I am experiencing some stability issues with the 1248 over TB on a late 2013 Mac Pro (trash can) running Yosemite 10.10.3 with Pro Tools 11 and 12HD. I believe this to be an OS X core audio issue moreso than a Pro Tools issue. I have the 1248 set up as my output sound device in OS X for playback in addition to being set as the playback engine in Pro Tools. I have observed that occasionally when playing back audio such as from iTunes or the occasional YouTube video, the OS fails to send audio data to the 1248. It still shows up as a recognized audio device in system preferences, but no audio passes from the computer to the 1248 (audibly or showing up on the 1248 meters). If I switch to display audio (via my TB display) I get signal. Switching back to the 1248 is fruitless, however upon restart the situation is resolved. I believe similar behavior is what is causing my PT crashes. If the playback engine suddenly disappears, this would certainly cause stability issues with Pro Tools.

Is anyone else experiencing a similar issue?

Generally I've not been impressed at all by Yosemite despite being qualified by Avid. It seems like Apple made some core audio revisions to accomodate things like handing off cell phone calls between iPhone and Mac in a way that has been detrimental to pro audio app stability.
Old 23rd June 2015
  #1733
Quote:
Originally Posted by mymediabrain View Post
I am experiencing some stability issues with the 1248 over TB on a late 2013 Mac Pro (trash can) running Yosemite 10.10.3 with Pro Tools 11 and 12HD. I believe this to be an OS X core audio issue moreso than a Pro Tools issue. I have the 1248 set up as my output sound device in OS X for playback in addition to being set as the playback engine in Pro Tools. I have observed that occasionally when playing back audio such as from iTunes or the occasional YouTube video, the OS fails to send audio data to the 1248. It still shows up as a recognized audio device in system preferences, but no audio passes from the computer to the 1248 (audibly or showing up on the 1248 meters). If I switch to display audio (via my TB display) I get signal. Switching back to the 1248 is fruitless, however upon restart the situation is resolved. I believe similar behavior is what is causing my PT crashes. If the playback engine suddenly disappears, this would certainly cause stability issues with Pro Tools.

Is anyone else experiencing a similar issue?

Generally I've not been impressed at all by Yosemite despite being qualified by Avid. It seems like Apple made some core audio revisions to accomodate things like handing off cell phone calls between iPhone and Mac in a way that has been detrimental to pro audio app stability.


Similar issues w/DP8 on nMP, I have a tech support ticket going. I just tried trashing all the preference and it still crashes. Sometimes if I wait, it comes back, but the connection to the 16As is lost. Other times, I need to power cycle the Mac. Hoping DP9 might resolve it.
Old 24th June 2015
  #1734
Where is the pan knob in the AUX window now there is pan support.. for the life of me I can't find it... no doubt its right in front of me... 8)

cheers

Wiz
Old 24th June 2015
  #1735
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiz_Oz View Post
Where is the pan knob in the AUX window now there is pan support.. for the life of me I can't find it... no doubt its right in front of me... 8)

cheers

Wiz
There is a pan button in the aux master to activate it..
Old 24th June 2015
  #1736
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGPS View Post
There is a pan button in the aux master to activate it..
thanks

there it is 8)

cheers

Wiz
Old 24th June 2015
  #1737
Received my ultralite avb today. Was not able to test it since it's not even powering up. I tried different wall socket, of course nothing changed. Will return it tomorrow hopefully. I'm kind of mad even if i know things like this can happen... Anyone has same problem?
Old 24th June 2015
  #1738
Hold the power button a bit longer.
Old 24th June 2015
  #1739
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAW PLUS View Post
Hold the power button a bit longer.
thanx for the tip, already done, even several seconds. just test the PSU with another hardware at home, it's working. I think there is something not going well inside the ultralite itself.

richard
Old 24th June 2015
  #1740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rcmusic35 View Post
thanx for the tip, already done, even several seconds. just test the PSU with another hardware at home, it's working. I think there is something not going well inside the ultralite itself.

richard
Oof. Sorry to hear that! Let's see if we can get you up and running ASAP. I'm going to send you a PM and we'll go from there.
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