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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 25th February 2015
  #1201
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emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbrain View Post
this please.. I have the motu HD192 as well .. I cant imagine that the there would not be an improvement .. but would LOVE an official word on this
Measure yours, look at my measurements here, answer....
Old 25th February 2015
  #1202
tft
Gear Nut
 

a question to mr. miller about the audiodrivers:
when i use a 112d as digital router, does it allow for 32bit float audiostreaming?
are there differences in that regard for usb, thunderbolt, avb? differences for windows/mac?

i am thinking about audiostreaming from a tracking daw, that plays out to another mixing/mastering application.
it would be great to not have to worry about levels/overs in that scenario.
any info appreciated, thanks.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1203
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikoli View Post

Meanwhile the 8m has the same amount of preamps as the Ensemble, but it has inferior preamp chips to it cousins (1248 and 16a). Not sure what kind of chips the Ensemble has.
So what I'm reading here is that you are saying that the 8M employes inferior preamp chips compared to the 1248 and 16a? I was wondering how you came to this conclusion. If true I certainly missed my homework when I purchased an 8m over the 1248. I can't imagine them doing that on the unit that features...uh preamps.

As for which unit will sell more, who cares? MOTU market research has shown a need for all three units (8m,1248,16a). It's amazing how even the simplest project can chew up inputs and preamps.

But perhaps the studio is not where these units will permanently live. The live sound mixing capabilities could be very handy for bands.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1204
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarth View Post
So what I'm reading here is that you are saying that the 8M employes inferior preamp chips compared to the 1248 and 16a? I was wondering how you came to this conclusion. If true I certainly missed my homework when I purchased an 8m over the 1248. I can't imagine them doing that on the unit that features...uh preamps.
From page 13 of this very thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
They do indeed have different preamp chips and hence different ranges. The 1248 has 63dB of gain and the 8M has 53dB.
I can imagine why... money. I image adding 4 more "1248-quality" preamps would have raised the price into Ensemble territory.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarth View Post
As for which unit will sell more, who cares? MOTU market research has shown a need for all three units (8m,1248,16a). It's amazing how even the simplest project can chew up inputs and preamps.

But perhaps the studio is not where these units will permanently live. The live sound mixing capabilities could be very handy for bands.
Completely agree. NMS didn't make any sense when he made his claim. Totally irrelevant point.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1205
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Take a look around. It's a reality of the current market. We can agree to disagree here if you like. It makes no difference one way or the other. If you need more than 4 onboard preamps then that's that.

Well, I just did! You save enough money that you can actually go buy some nicer external preamps.

The Ensemble uses lower grade AD converters than the Symphony/16a/1248, comes up short on the DC coupled outputs of the Symphony/16a/1248, and uses the same DAC design as the Duet2 since it was never at any time meant to be anything more than a second tier (not flagship) unit. Let's be realistic here please as these are just the facts. For those with 'creative' reading comprehension I will also reiterate that does not in any way mean I think it's a bad product. It is what it is.

Alright you can stop putting words in my mouth right about now. Motu will sell more of the 16a + 1248 than they will of the 8m. That's because there are more people who want 0-4 onboard preamps than 6-8. Don't believe it? I'll throw $100 down on that bet easily if you want to make this interesting. I'm pretty sure we are talking about the current market here, not my specific needs.

Well golly gee, I am like totally shocked that you continue to champion your irrelevant opinions as facts.

Why don't you take that $100 and buy a self improvement book or three?
Old 25th February 2015
  #1206
Here for the gear
Now I'm feeling a bit deceived by the marketing here as I listened to Dave Roberts explain on Youtube about this series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Opba_pSCg Try about 1:50 and tell me if you think the pre-amps are the same. I want to return this unit now, not because it's a bad unit but because I feel I wasn't able to make the best choice for my situation because the facts were obscured on page 13 of a 41 page forum. That's a pretty big difference considering what the unit is designed for and it would have had me purchase the 1248 and adding different pres as needed.

Last edited by Swarth; 25th February 2015 at 06:45 PM.. Reason: omission
Old 25th February 2015
  #1207
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikoli View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
They do indeed have different preamp chips and hence different ranges. The has 63dB of gain and the has 53dB.
I can imagine why... money. I image adding 4 more "1248-quality" preamps would have raised the price into Ensemble territory.
Actually, it has more to do with the 8M's V-Limit feature which uses two ADCs per channel and is also why the gain specs are different. I misspoke when I said that back on page 13—they share the same preamp chip and the other differences are due to the V-Limit implementation.

As for why only 4 pre-amps or why any choice of ins and outs, there are a lot of different factors. One of the great benefits of AVB is that it makes expanding your system easy as your needs change, so we aim to give customers as many options as possible to tailor their setup to fit. We've planned the entire line together from the start to complement each other based on your use case.

In the end, everyone has different needs and one user's feature is another's flaw. The cool thing is that we're much closer to à la carte setups. Need 16 preamps, 48 analog outs and MADI, all in one setup? We've got you covered.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarth View Post
Now I'm feeling a bit deceived by the marketing here as I listened to Dave Roberts explain on Youtube about this series. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7Opba_pSCg Try about 1:50 and tell me if you think the pre-amps are the same. I want to return this unit now, not because it's a bad unit but because I feel I wasn't able to make the best choice for my situation because the facts were obscured on page 13 of a 41 page forum. That's a pretty big difference considering what the unit is designed for and it would have had me purchase the 1248 and adding different pres as needed.
Sorry, no desire to mislead! The preamps are in fact the same between the 8M and 1248 (despite what I'm quoted saying in the post just above this from page 13... I meant to refer to the circuitry for V-Limit, not the preamp itself; sorry!). The only difference is the ADC, which is the same as in the 24Ai. The 8M's V-Limit feature uses two ADCs per channel. The 1248 and 16A use the CS5381 while the 8M and 24Ai use the CS5368.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1209
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Me. Miller,
I apologize for asking what has probably been answered. This thread has become difficult to find any information in!!

You site states you have USB drivers for Windows currently and support Windows 7 and up. Is there any development for Thunderbolt happening?? How can I expect performance (latency, stabilty) on a solid Pro tools 11 machine with Windows 8.1?
Old 25th February 2015
  #1210
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Me. Miller,
I apologize for asking what has probably been answered. This thread has become difficult to find any information in!!

You site states you have USB drivers for Windows currently and support Windows 7 and up. Is there any development for Thunderbolt happening?? How can I expect performance (latency, stabilty) on a solid Pro tools 11 machine with Windows 8.1?
Thunderbolt is still under consideration but our priority right now is increasing the channel count for USB. We're still exploring low-latency, high-channel count options and Thunderbolt is one possibility. I'll let someone else chime in as far as latency and stability, though, as I'm obviously biased.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1211
Gear Maniac
I actually really like the strategy of developing and marketing a "complimentary" product line. However, you have to be really careful about the message you send because it can be very confusing to your customers... as we're seeing in this very thread.

For instance, in that youtube video the MOTU rep clearly states "63 db Gain from Mic Preamps" and suggests this is true of the entire product line, which includes the 8m. Obviously that is untrue given what you've stated in this thread.

Also, you say in one post that the 8m and the 1248 have "different preamp chips". And then in another post you go on to explain that "the preamps are in fact the same between the 8M and 1248" ... and then go on to explain that they use different ADC chips... which impact the performance of the preamps.

So while I don't think MOTU is being intentionally misleading... I think MOTU is kind of falling into their own trap, so to speak. The message being received by your customers is "they're different, but they're also the same, they just use different components and have different capabilities... but trust us, they're the same". At least that's how it's reading to me.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1212
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikoli View Post
I actually really like the strategy of developing and marketing a "complimentary" product line. However, you have to be really careful about the message you send because it can be very confusing to your customers... as we're seeing in this very thread.

For instance, in that youtube video the MOTU rep clearly states "63 db Gain from Mic Preamps" and suggests this is true of the entire product line, which includes the 8m. Obviously that is untrue given what you've stated in this thread.

Also, you say in one post that the 8m and the 1248 have "different preamp chips". And then in another post you go on to explain that "the preamps are in fact the same between the 8M and 1248" ... and then go on to explain that they use different ADC chips... which impact the performance of the preamps.

So while I don't think MOTU is being intentionally misleading... I think MOTU is kind of falling into their own trap, so to speak. The message being received by your customers is "they're different, but they're also the same, they just use different components and have different capabilities... but trust us, they're the same". At least that's how it's reading to me.
That's true. The onus is on us and the devil's in the details. The website correctly shows the dynamic ranges (though there was an error there at launch, briefly). I do think I've been pretty clear from the beginning that the ADCs in the 24Ai and 8M are different from those in the 16A and 1248. The ADCs don't impact the performance of the preamps—the design of V-Limit does. In this case, it's a tradeoff of dynamic range for peak protection.

The preamp chip screwup is completely my fault though. That was misinformation. I double-checked my notes with the hardware team from a while back when responding and noticed my error, correcting it as soon as I saw it. I'm really sorry about that. I know you're relying on us for accurate information so it's of course discouraging when I get it wrong. I'll try harder to be accurate!
Old 25th February 2015
  #1213
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Sorry, no desire to mislead! The preamps are in fact the same between the 8M and 1248. The only difference is the ADC, which is the same as in the 24Ai. The 8M's V-Limit feature uses two ADCs per channel. The 1248 and 16A use the CS5381 while the 8M and 24Ai use the CS5368.
Well that's telling it like it is, thank you. Like a mouse with cookies, so what about the Sabre DAC's in each unit too please?

I think we could agree that this might be a bit better explained. However I did notice the v-limit feature and hadn't previously realized it was an 8M only item. Then it started to fall into place that this addition was the key. Using two converters per channel really ups the cost of the ADC's to perhaps 3x of the 1248. I'm thinking that the V-limit was something the fellows over at MOTU thought we should have. 53db of gain will certainly work for all but the most delicate mics and sources and since I need to get to work the 8M stays, but now I know why there is no 2nd headphone jack or Highz inputs on the front.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1214
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The 8M looks ideal for tracking drum kits, and for drums you're probably not gonna need more gain than that anyway.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarth View Post
Well that's telling it like it is, thank you. Like a mouse with cookies, so what about the Sabre DAC's in each unit too please?
We use the same Sabre32 Ultra 8-channel DACs across all the interfaces with analog outs in the line with the exception of the UltraLite AVB. That means the 8M, 16A, 1248, 24Ao and Monitor 8 (no analog out on the 24Ai or 112D).

(Sidnote: With this post getting so long, I realize very few people have read through the whole thing at this point. I'd just like to point out that this is not new information and we've been up front about this from the beginning. I'm of course happy to repeat it though! That's much more convenient than reading through the whole thread, especially for newcomers who just need some info.)
Old 25th February 2015
  #1216
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JanZoo's Avatar
One question please.

Does 8 analog inputs on Monitor 8 means that I can record up to 8 channels in my DAW , or are they there only for monitoring purposes (e.g. hooking up samplers or keyboards and monitoring threw the interface) ?

If it's able to record, then I'll get it. I'm in need of an interface to monitor 3 pairs of active monitors, 2 headphone pairs and record 2 channels from the external preamp. Plus hooking up my profire 2626 as an additional 8 mic inputs via adat is nice.

Was looking at the 1248, but I don't need preamps, 16a doesn't have headphone amps... Monitor 8 would be perfect

Thanks

Last edited by JanZoo; 25th February 2015 at 08:03 PM..
Old 25th February 2015
  #1217
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarth View Post
Well that's telling it like it is, thank you. Like a mouse with cookies, so what about the Sabre DAC's in each unit too please?

I think we could agree that this might be a bit better explained. However I did notice the v-limit feature and hadn't previously realized it was an 8M only item. Then it started to fall into place that this addition was the key. Using two converters per channel really ups the cost of the ADC's to perhaps 3x of the 1248. I'm thinking that the V-limit was something the fellows over at MOTU thought we should have. 53db of gain will certainly work for all but the most delicate mics and sources and since I need to get to work the 8M stays, but now I know why there is no 2nd headphone jack or Highz inputs on the front.
...which is why the Ensemble is now the front runner for my money. Eight preamps with 75 dB Gain + soft limit , and you get two jfet guitar inputs and outputs on the front + two headphones.

Motu makes a compelling case though.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1218
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanZoo View Post
Does 8 analog inputs on Monitor 8 means that I can record up to 8 channels in my DAW , or are they there only for monitoring purposes (e.g. hooking up samplers or keyboards and monitoring threw the interface) ?

If it's able to record, then I'll get it. I'm in need of an interface to monitor 3 pairs of active monitors, 2 headphone pairs and record 2 channels from the external preamp. Plus hooking up my profire 2626 as an additional 8 mic inputs via adat is nice.
Yup! Those analog inputs (as with any inputs on any of the AVB boxes) are routable anywhere, whether into the computer, to headphone submixes, over AVB or ADAT or all of the above.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1219
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JanZoo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Yup! Those analog inputs (as with any inputs on any of the AVB boxes) are routable anywhere, whether into the computer, to headphone submixes, over AVB or ADAT or all of the above.
Great thanks !

I guess I'll be a future customer. For 1k $ it's a steal !

The only downside is that I'm a PC user and can use it only with USB for now. Maybe I could get a MoBo with thunderbolt in case that it get support for Windows tb users ...

EDIT: Oh, I see Monitor 8 is not thunderbolt
Old 25th February 2015
  #1220
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitardom View Post
Me. Miller,
I apologize for asking what has probably been answered. This thread has become difficult to find any information in!!

You site states you have USB drivers for Windows currently and support Windows 7 and up. Is there any development for Thunderbolt happening?? How can I expect performance (latency, stabilty) on a solid Pro tools 11 machine with Windows 8.1?

My tests so far have not been encouraging from a Windows standpoint running Win7pro 64 and Sonar X3. Clicks, digital distortion and all manner of gentle reminders why I should have gone with Apple all those years ago. Let's face it we are the step children who exist on the scraps left over from Mac development.

So far the best I can get is right near 20ms, that's round trip through my DAW. I can get the numbers lower but I can't use what comes out. I don't believe for a minute it has anything to do with the 8M but that the USB drivers are not communicating effectively because Windows doesn't play well with others.
Sampling rate and bit depth do not appear to change things, only the buffer.

I would hate to dump Sonar after all these years but the years of frustration are mounting. Back to the trouble shooting, and of course constant rebooting.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swarth View Post
My tests so far have not been encouraging from a Windows standpoint running Win7pro 64 and Sonar X3. Clicks, digital distortion and all manner of gentle reminders why I should have gone with Apple all those years ago. Let's face it we are the step children who exist on the scraps left over from Mac development.

So far the best I can get is right near 20ms, that's round trip through my DAW. I can get the numbers lower but I can't use what comes out. I don't believe for a minute it has anything to do with the 8M but that the USB drivers are not communicating effectively because Windows doesn't play well with others.
Sampling rate and bit depth do not appear to change things, only the buffer.

I would hate to dump Sonar after all these years but the years of frustration are mounting. Back to the trouble shooting, and of course constant rebooting.
I agree to certain degree though I have never seen it this bad as it has been from hardware developers the last year. I understand the rush to TB since Apple decided to remove PCIE slots, but in the aftermath Windows users are being forgotten and suffering. It is also getting worse as almost every yearly apple update is breaking things and requiring more development time. I still find it strange that Avid has Thunderbolt drivers for Windows working LONG before anyone else has even got close and they are usually the worst!!! Its just depressing watching company's lose out on huge chunks of a user base. I have multiple customers wanting to move forward with new interfaces since they have TB on their PC and there is literally none it seems for Windows users to go to.
Old 25th February 2015
  #1222
Gear Addict
 
rob61's Avatar
 

MrMiller... I know the 16a that I use with USB utilizes USB2. I've been using a standard USB2 port with it. Would there be any advantage (speed, stability, or otherwise) using a USB3 port? Or am I safer and just as stable with my standard USB2 port that I've been using?
Old 25th February 2015
  #1223
Here for the gear
I just got though another round of troubling shooting and testing. I am pleased to report that so far *fingers crossed* I'm getting 9.3 / 896 samples round trip glitch free @ 96/24 with multiple tracks and overdubs. I can get the buffer size to 128 @48/24, so it does matter. I'm not sure how stable it will be long term because I've found over time windows junks up and requires a reboot for the USB audio to clear. It is unclear how or why this happens, but it does and I've seen it in other applications, most definitely a windows issue. I recently installed a dual boot and added Ubuntu Studio to see if Linux is a viable platform. Unfortunately Linux hardware support is not really happening, which is a shame because I'm dumping windows for pretty much all my computing activities and using Linux. I'm almost to the point where I want to build out a Hackentosh, but not quite.
Old 26th February 2015
  #1224
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Yup! Those analog inputs (as with any inputs on any of the AVB boxes) are routable anywhere, whether into the computer, to headphone submixes, over AVB or ADAT or all of the above.
mrmiller, one more question on Monitor 8 to close ADC theme on AVB line - what kind of ADC's are used in line inputs on Monitor 8?
Old 26th February 2015
  #1225
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JanZoo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by siwang View Post
mrmiller, one more question on Monitor 8 to close ADC theme on AVB line - what kind of ADC's are used in line inputs on Monitor 8?


I'm interested as well
Old 26th February 2015
  #1226
Installed the new (1.5) drivers last night. Said something about fixing the ToS Link. Hope it brings back better stability.

Here's the first formal project I've finished recorded and mixed entirely on the 16As. (A while back I posted a band practice). I play everything except violin and viola. It was mastered by fellow slut Bill Simpkins. If anyone is curious about a recording chain - I can provide more info.

Old 1st March 2015
  #1227
tft
Gear Nut
 

just a bump for the question below. any info on that available?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tft View Post
a question to mr. miller about the audiodrivers:
when i use a 112d as digital router, does it allow for 32bit float audiostreaming?
are there differences in that regard for usb, thunderbolt, avb? differences for windows/mac?

i am thinking about audiostreaming from a tracking daw, that plays out to another mixing/mastering application.
it would be great to not have to worry about levels/overs in that scenario.
any info appreciated, thanks.
Old 1st March 2015
  #1228
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Thank you Mr Monkey
Old 2nd March 2015
  #1229
Lives for gear
 

The 112D is in stock. I'll let you know if I get one.

Nice track Robby in WA. The 16A sounds great and I dig the string solo.
Old 2nd March 2015
  #1230
Quote:
Originally Posted by siwang View Post
mrmiller, one more question on Monitor 8 to close ADC theme on AVB line - what kind of ADC's are used in line inputs on Monitor 8?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanZoo View Post
I'm interested as well
Sorry for the delayed response! The Monitor 8 uses the same CS5368 ADCs as in the 8M and 24Ai.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robby in WA View Post
Installed the new (1.5) drivers last night. Said something about fixing the ToS Link. Hope it brings back better stability.
The 1.1.5 firmware update fixes an issue with TosLink introduced in 1.1.4. Hopefully things are working better for you after the update!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tft View Post
just a bump for the question below. any info on that available?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tft View Post
a question to mr. miller about the audiodrivers:
when i use a 112d as digital router, does it allow for 32bit float audiostreaming?
are there differences in that regard for usb, thunderbolt, avb? differences for windows/mac?

i am thinking about audiostreaming from a tracking daw, that plays out to another mixing/mastering application.
it would be great to not have to worry about levels/overs in that scenario.
any info appreciated, thanks.
Well, the real problem is MADI, AES/EBU and ADAT all max out at 24-bit resolution and there's no getting around that. AVB might work but I need to double check that with some other people.
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