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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 28th November 2014
  #811
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beau_mckee's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by qutobol View Post
Thanks again, NMS. I think you give a lot of valuable posts on this forum.

-Q
Agreed
Old 28th November 2014
  #812
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Our priority right now is USB since that opens it up to the most people. We're also seeing if we can eke out 32 in and 32 out, which helps a bit. As you say, though, the USB channel count falls short of our vision of a massively networked audio setup.

Both AVB-capable NICs and Thunderbolt are hard to come by on Windows. The former would require just about everyone to buy one of a handful of specific ethernet cards. The latter would require a custom PC build or one of a handful of stock PCs that have it. Neither is a particularly pretty solution.

We're looking into options on Windows that will allow the most people to use the interfaces. USB is an obvious first step. Once that's done, we'll see what makes most sense next. I'm not ruling anything out, just laying out our thinking on the matter.

By the way, for those in the US, happy Thanksgiving! Eat lots!

Thanks, Michael, I believe that you are right in focusing in USB this time. I don´t mean to bash your efforts or your involvement in this thread, you have been very helpful here and with my messages (I don´t see a lot of that in other companies).

When talking about ethernet cards, I remember when we had to buy firewire cards or motherboards with texas instruments chips on them. So, as long as we know which cards are good to go, I would be a no-brainer to buy one of them instead of upgrading all the system to use thunderbolt.

Then again, stable 32 channels via usb would be sweet too. (and to choose more channels outs than ins, would be revolutionary...I know you said is not likely )
Old 28th November 2014
  #813
Here for the gear
 

specs of the internal Master clock

Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
I have no reason to suspect that, but the Hilo is a high end mastering unit and I think there's a chance it could improve it slightly.
Internal clocking of the Motu AVBs and therefor performance regarding jitter is pretty much the only thing left that we are "worried" about at this point. There has been some discussion in this thread (including theories like "Motu doesn't even talk about clocking, therefor it has not been a priority and likely isn't state of the art") and even sound samples with different clock sources (compare the differences e.g. with these samples: jitter_1).
Tradionally best possible internal clocking has always been a prime concern for us - therefor choosing objectively well implemented solutions like the Prism`s.

I would love to hear more about the performance of the internal Master clock's in these AVB units and also see some hard facts about jitter performance (measurement's like Does Your Studio Need A Digital Master Clock?). Thanks!

If the internal clocking of the AVBs really can be significantly bettered by using an external master clock, we would very much prefer finding a solution where the sync is taking place directly over the AVB network (external AVB master clock, as very tight syncing is one of the prime AVB features) - is there such a solution yet?
Old 29th November 2014
  #814
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Already exist drivers for windows?.
Old 29th November 2014
  #815
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GP_Hawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
I have no reason to suspect that, but the Hilo is a high end mastering unit and I think there's a chance it could improve it slightly.
I haven't heard anything about the preamps, but they're a new upgraded design so they're probably decent.
Just curious nms, is your hilo usb or the tb.
Old 29th November 2014
  #816
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaulMX View Post
Already exist drivers for windows?.
Not yet but we're working hard to get them finished!
Old 29th November 2014
  #817
Gear Head
 

mrMiller,

we like to run a setup at 192kHz, can you tell us the limitations in:
- USB2 max channels in/out per USB connection
- Channels per AVB-stream
- Total channels/streams per 1Gb AVB port

If we run in channel-limitations on the USB-connection, can we connect a second USB (from the same computer) to a second device and sync the second unit over external-wordclock with the first as master?
Old 29th November 2014
  #818
Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
we like to run a setup at 192kHz, can you tell us the limitations in:
- USB2 max channels in/out per USB connection
- Channels per AVB-stream
- Total channels/streams per 1Gb AVB port
I'm assuming you're talking about Mac in this case. You can do 24 in and 24 out over USB up to 192khz (MOTU.com - MOTU AVB FAQ). Thunderbolt does 128 channels at 1x and 2x rates, but drops to 64 channels at 4x rates.

Each AVB stream has 8 channels of audio. At 1x and 2x rates, we support up to 16 streams per device in either direction. That means 128 channels in and out. At 4x rates, like Thunderbolt, that drops to 8 streams per device or 64 channels in and 64 out (MOTU.com - MOTU AVB FAQ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
If we run in channel-limitations on the USB-connection, can we connect a second USB (from the same computer) to a second device and sync the second unit over external-wordclock with the first as master?
In theory, on Mac, you can create a Core Audio aggregate device by connecting multiple interfaces over USB and sharing a clock between them as you've described. This can work but it tends to be much less stable than just a single interface. You can try it out and it may work, but I wouldn't recommend it if you've got other options.
Old 30th November 2014
  #819
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Not yet but we're working hard to get them finished!
The MOTU site says that Windows 8 or higher is going to be a requirement for the 16A. Is this an absolute requirement or are those us still on Windows 7 64-bit going to be supported if we want to use the 16A?

Also, can you confirm that 24 channels of both input and output are going to be supported over USB 2? My understanding is that the Windows USB driver will be be coming first with Thunderbolt available some time later, so I want to be sure about what I can expect to be able to use once the USB driver becomes available.

Thanks.
Old 30th November 2014
  #820
Quote:
Originally Posted by cLoudForest View Post
The MOTU site says that Windows 8 or higher is going to be a requirement for the 16A. Is this an absolute requirement or are those us still on Windows 7 64-bit going to be supported if we want to use the 16A?
Things are still in development, so we'll see. We are definitely aware of how many people are avoiding Windows 8, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cLoudForest View Post
Also, can you confirm that 24 channels of both input and output are going to be supported over USB 2? My understanding is that the Windows USB driver will be be coming first with Thunderbolt available some time later, so I want to be sure about what I can expect to be able to use once the USB driver becomes available.
Yes, 24 channels in and 24 channels out simultaneously. For what it's worth, I'm never referring to total (in plus out) channel counts. That's a useless number as far as I'm concerned. So for all the different computer connections:

USB: 24 in + 24 out
TB (Mac): 128+128 (64+64 at 4x)
AVB (Mac): 128+128 (64+64 at 4x)
Old 30th November 2014
  #821
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Things are still in development, so we'll see. We are definitely aware of how many people are avoiding Windows 8, though.



Yes, 24 channels in and 24 channels out simultaneously. For what it's worth, I'm never referring to total (in plus out) channel counts. That's a useless number as far as I'm concerned. So for all the different computer connections:

USB: 24 in + 24 out
TB (Mac): 128+128 (64+64 at 4x)
AVB (Mac): 128+128 (64+64 at 4x)
Thanks for the reply. I have no particular problem with Windows 8 per se, it's more a matter of "if it aint broke..." and an OS upgrade on my DAW is something I would rather avoid if at all possible.

24 in/24 out was what I was hoping for, so that's great to hear. I'm hoping to use the 16 analogue ins + 8 channels of ADAT at most so this would cover what I want quite nicely until such time that the Thunderbolt support is available.

Thanks again.
Old 30th November 2014
  #822
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
I'm assuming you're talking about Mac in this case. You can do 24 in and 24 out over USB up to 192khz

In theory, on Mac, you can create a Core Audio aggregate device by connecting multiple interfaces over USB and sharing a clock between them as you've described. This can work but it tends to be much less stable than just a single interface. You can try it out and it may work, but I wouldn't recommend it if you've got other options.
Thank you.
Yes, we are using a 12-core/48GB 5.1 Mac Pro. We have it running stable at USB-192kHz with Cubase (24/24 channels). We are using AVB to connect to the other units.
Our next step will be getting AVB to work in the Mac Pro, I am ordering a GE1000LAB-E Sonnet Presto Gigabit PCIe Pro. This card is a 'drop-in' OSX-supported-version and has a Broadcom chipset, according to Sonnet it will support AVB.
I will keep you posted on the progress..
Old 3rd December 2014
  #823
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safetyfirst's Avatar
 

Dear Gearslutz,

Thanks to this great thread! I finally upgraded from two daisy chained MOTU UltraLite MK3 to the 1248 and 16A. What a nice improvement! The sound is great and I'm really happy about the purchase. Also the browser Interface is a great leap forward compared to the old Cue Mix! Very logical and nicely arranged ...

mrmiller I can't tell you enough how much I would appreciate a 32 I&O option over USB since I'm also on an older MacPro. What would help already if there'd be an option to choose if you want to use for example 32 Ins and just 12 outs. So you keep the 48 ... Maybe some other people might be interested in that too. But of course 32 I&O over USB would be great since I won't be upgrading too soon to a newer machine.

On thing I really enjoyed with the UltraLite was the native volume control option, for quick use of the keyboard native volume controls ... There is not such an option hidden somewhere, or am I just not seeing it? No biggie, was just nice ...

Als thanks to Hardtoe for the great audio samples posted in this thread, definitely helped to form my decision! Great short piece!

Thanks again!
Old 3rd December 2014
  #824
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DiDi's Avatar
Agreed SF! Great thread!
I have also just upgraded... from the original Traveler and Ultralite.
I am on a PC platform, so until the Windows drivers are available, I am using the 1248 as an expander via Lightpipe to the Traveler. I know... a poor use of such a versatile piece of gear, but I needed to expand now, and am unwilling to purchase outdated technology.
Thus far I am extremely happy with my investment. Sound quality is superb, and like SF, I find the web interface to be logical and practical. Operating the interface wirelessly from either my 21" tablet, or dual screen touchbook is a snap!
I am anxiously awaiting release of the Win8 driver to fully integrate the 1248 into my small project studio.
Old 3rd December 2014
  #825
Quote:
Originally Posted by safetyfirst View Post
On thing I really enjoyed with the UltraLite was the native volume control option, for quick use of the keyboard native volume controls ... There is not such an option hidden somewhere, or am I just not seeing it? No biggie, was just nice ...
Under the Device tab > Computer Setup, make sure the "Computer Volume Controls" checkbox is ticked. That should enable the OS X volume slider as before. If you don't see such a checkbox, check that you're updated to the latest firmware version.
Old 3rd December 2014
  #826
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Excuse me if that has been answered before, but does the 1248 use the ESS Sabre volume control, as explained here http://www.esstech.com/PDF/digital-v...me-control.pdf

Or is it the typical software dithering volume control?
Old 3rd December 2014
  #827
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriseel View Post
Excuse me if that has been answered before, but does the 1248 use the ESS Sabre volume control, as explained here http://www.esstech.com/PDF/digital-v...me-control.pdf

Or is it the typical software dithering volume control?
I don't think it's been asked yet, actually! Yes, we do use the DAC's 32-bit volume control, which is quite good.
Old 4th December 2014
  #828
Also, we just shipped AudioDesk 4 earlier today! It's a free update and works with any MOTU interface. This is the first version to run on Windows and includes a bunch of new plug-ins, 64-bit support and more. I know most of you are probably set when it comes to DAWs but if not, this is an easy way to get recording and playing. You can grab it here: MOTU.com - Download.
Old 4th December 2014
  #829
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safetyfirst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Under the Device tab > Computer Setup, make sure the "Computer Volume Controls" checkbox is ticked. That should enable the OS X volume slider as before. If you don't see such a checkbox, check that you're updated to the latest firmware version.
Thank you! But not for me yet ... I already talked to your good support people and as it seems there was a problem with some of the firmware updates. I'm on the latest both firmware and motu avb devices and the checkbox isn't there but I was told it's coming back ...
Old 4th December 2014
  #830
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Excuse me if asked already but:

How is the 16A currently running on Windows 7 via USB?

I'm running Cubase 7 and very seriously considering the 16A as a means to upgrade me to 16ins x 92Khz.
Old 6th December 2014
  #831
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Visible Cow's Avatar
 

+1 for interest in Windows 7 support. I'd rather not upgrade to 8 right now.
Old 8th December 2014
  #832
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dandeurloo's Avatar
MrMiller I have a request. I recently purchased a 24Ao. I haven't tested it yet. But it seemed worth a shot for expansion on my hybrid setup. As I am thinking about my main interface to go along with it I would love to see the 24Ai or 16a to have SPIDF in and out so I can use my high end 2 channel convertors for monitoring and overdubs and printing mixes. I know the 1248 offers SPIDF but I don't want pres or any of that. I just love the simple format of the 16a or the 24Ai + the 24ao for my hybrid set up. Using the Motu's for most of the heavy lifting and having the options for my other high end AD/DA for the most critical applications.

Thanks
Old 8th December 2014
  #833
CC mode ?

I'm interested in getting an M8 to use as an audio interface with my iPad Air running Auria. Anyone ever tried the M8 in CC mode?
Old 8th December 2014
  #834
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Thunderbolt latency is better, thanks to the protocol and our driver. Our Thunderbolt driver round-trip latency is currently 135 samples at 32 sample buffers.
I'm trying to nail down the exact latency figures to compare the MOTU 1248 directly against the Ensemble TB. Is this still the most accurate, up to date information and how to I apply this figure to real world RTL through Logic at different sample rates / buffer size?

Ideally I would like to know latency in ms for a MOTU 1248 + Logic at 44.1, 48 and 96 khz using buffer settings of 32, 64 and 128 samples.

Also, is it possible to feed the 1248's Mic Inputs with a balanced line signal?

Cheers
Old 8th December 2014
  #835
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
I'm trying to nail down the exact latency figures to compare the MOTU 1248 directly against the Ensemble TB. Is this still the most accurate, up to date information and how to I apply this figure to real world RTL through Logic at different sample rates / buffer size?

Ideally I would like to know latency in ms for a MOTU 1248 + Logic at 44.1, 48 and 96 khz using buffer settings of 32, 64 and 128 samples.
Yes, that information is accurate and unless Logic is adding extra buffers for some reason, you should see that latency (measured in samples) with 32 sample buffers, independent of sample rate. At 44.1, 48, and 96khz, that corresponds to 3ms, 2.8ms and 1.4ms respectively. For 64 sample buffers, you'd expect ~200 samples (4.5ms, 4.2 and 2.1ms). For 128 sample buffers, ~327 samples (7.4ms, 6.8ms, 3.4ms). We haven't measured these in Logic and I'm doing some arithmetic to fill in some missing measurements but this is roughly what you should expect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TEMAS View Post
Also, is it possible to feed the 1248's Mic Inputs with a balanced line signal?
I don't see why not, though keep in mind it's an XLR jack, not a combo jack. With no gain on the preamp, it should be the same as the other 8 balanced TRS ins.
Old 8th December 2014
  #836
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Norre View Post
I'm interested in getting an M8 to use as an audio interface with my iPad Air running Auria. Anyone ever tried the M8 in CC mode?
I used my 1248 into an iPad Air 2 and all the inputs showed up in Cubasis. Wouldn't think the M8 would be any different.
Old 8th December 2014
  #837
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeymanx View Post
I used my 1248 into an iPad Air 2 and all the inputs showed up in Cubasis. Wouldn't think the M8 would be any different.
Good to know Thanks!
Old 9th December 2014
  #838
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Yes, that information is accurate and unless Logic is adding extra buffers for some reason, you should see that latency (measured in samples) with 32 sample buffers, independent of sample rate. At 44.1, 48, and 96khz, that corresponds to 3ms, 2.8ms and 1.4ms respectively. For 64 sample buffers, you'd expect ~200 samples (4.5ms, 4.2 and 2.1ms). For 128 sample buffers, ~327 samples (7.4ms, 6.8ms, 3.4ms). We haven't measured these in Logic and I'm doing some arithmetic to fill in some missing measurements but this is roughly what you should expect.
Great. Thanks for that.

Here's an easy view comparison that people might find helpful for the 1248 against the highest performing alternative at the 3 most common sample rates.

EnsembleTB___________MOTU 1248

32 buffer

44.k:__2.86ms___________3ms
48k:__2.63ms___________2.8ms
96k:__1.10ms___________1.4ms

64 buffer

44.k:__4.31ms___________4.5ms
48k:__3.96ms___________4.2ms
96k:__1.77ms___________2.1ms

128 buffer

44.k:__7.21ms___________7.4ms
48k:__6.63ms___________6.8ms
96k:__3.10ms___________3.4ms


AFAIK these two devices are thunderbolt's top two in the latency department. And for me, the difference of 5-10% is not enough to cause any envy.
Old 9th December 2014
  #839
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Apple's driver currently uses an exclusive acquisition model as you've described. Things are only going to improve over time as the driver continues to mature. For now, you can handle more complex, shared multi-client workflows by using an interface via USB or TB as a sort of bridge to the AVB network.
Today I finally had some time to play with AVB-ethernet on my MacBookPro-port.
For test setup I use a 1248 + 16A ethernet-connected to the Motu-swith and to the Thunderbolt-Ethernet interface on the MacBookPro (OSX 10.10.1). The 1248/16A/Motu-switch are updated with the latest firmware's. The 'ethernet' port on the Motu-Switch is connected to in-house network.

Some observations:
- It appears that the OSX dictates the clock and not the Motu, no clock synchronisation between units (master clock) is possible (likely due to the 'exclusive use' limitation). Can you confirm this?
- Multiple Motu's show up as individual 'sound card devices' in the Audio/Midi setup, so likely you need to build an aggregate sound device if you want to use them in your DAW. (similar problem as with using multiple USB ports)

Another question i have is how I can change the 'hostname' of the 1248/16A?
We plan to run multiple 16A's and 8M's, it would be great if we could identify them more easily.

Coming Friday I expect to receive the Sonnet network-card for the 5.1-Mac-Pro, fingers crossed...
Old 9th December 2014
  #840
Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
Some observations:
- It appears that the OSX dictates the clock and not the Motu, no clock synchronisation between units (master clock) is possible (likely due to the 'exclusive use' limitation). Can you confirm this?
OS X does indeed dictate the clock choice. When your Mac acquires the device, we're not supposed to change device settings behind its back so we disable those controls in the Device tab. You can change those settings in Audio MIDI Setup, however. The clock sources are in the form of "<device name>:<device clock source>:<Mac clock source>", e.g. "1248:Internal:Output Stream 1." That means the 1248 will use its internal clock and the Mac will clock to AVB stream 1 from the device. You have all the same clocking options as before, plus the additional option of using that Mac's internal clock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
- Multiple Motu's show up as individual 'sound card devices' in the Audio/Midi setup, so likely you need to build an aggregate sound device if you want to use them in your DAW. (similar problem as with using multiple USB ports)
Correct. You should create an aggregate device to join them. Just make sure both interfaces share the same clock and you should be set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
Another question i have is how I can change the 'hostname' of the 1248/16A?
We plan to run multiple 16A's and 8M's, it would be great if we could identify them more easily.
You can change the device name in the Device tab by clicking its name at the top of the page. The host name is based off the device's name so if you changed it to "balijon16a," its host name would become "balijon16" and you could access it via http://balijon16a.local. You can use just about any character in the name so you could do "balijon's 16A", but the hostname may have substituted characters (e.g., balijons-16a.local). Use the AVB Discovery app to find the new hostname in that case. If you're using only latin characters and symbols, you can also view the hostname from the front panel of the box.
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