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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 12th November 2014
  #751
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
I can't give even a rough estimate on the Windows driver, unfortunately. Engineering's fickle and that last 10% can end up taking 90% of the time. The most I can say is that it's coming along and only USB will be available at first. We want them out as soon as possible but we want to make sure they're great first!

I also can't say if or when there will be a small form factor AVB unit.

Sorry for the non-answers. I can't really talk too much about the mid-term future, whether it's potential products or timelines. Happy to dish about anything else though, as always!
Thanks for the heads-up anyway. I got "end of year" as a rough estimate for the Windows driver from the local distributor. I guess, that's what you wanna do. I absolutely understand you can't talk too much about future products. I'll porbably go with the Apollo and get that discount and maybe trade that for a smaller MOTU AVB once/if my main studio switches to AVB.

Still gonna follow this thread as these units seem to fill a gap and are really very interesting. Only Problem I see is Windows support. I don't see Thunderbolt really taking of on Windows and worry, how they could replace the old PCIe line for large channel counts. We currently have 72 channels (56 analog + 16 ADAT), definitly nothing for USB. Will MOTU make the Windows drivers Thunderbolt ready at some point?
Old 12th November 2014
  #752
Quote:
Originally Posted by icephra View Post
To those that may have a better grasp on the Thunderbolt protocol, is it possible to connect the 1248 to the computer and connect a hard drive to the USB port on the 1248?
This is not possible with the 1248 itself. You can find Thunderbolt docks by manufacturers like Belkin, however, which include additional USB ports, a Thunderbolt port for daisy chaining, etc. You could then connect the 1248 and HDD to the dock.
Old 12th November 2014
  #753
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
So I decided to go ahead and post just a little loop of groove I have been jamming out for fun, to see how the 1248 reacts on my summing test with electronic, programmed kind of material, using its own internal clock VS the Big Ben Clock (via WC).

I did the test a few ways.

The "ITB Bounce" is the (somewhat loose I admit) control here, and features U-he's Presswerx comp doing subtle 2buss compression.

The "2 Buss Summed 1248" loops are summed out via 2 of the 1248's analog outputs into a passive Unit Audio summing mixer, with makeup gain and subtle eq and light compression coming from a Thermionic Culture Rooster and a Drawmer 1968 at the end of the chain - the stereo mix is then captured back into the 1248, clocked both internally and off an Apogee Big Ben. These versions also include U-he's Presswerx comp doing subtle 2buss compression ITB, pre summing.

The "8 Channel Summed 1248" loops are summed out via 8 of the 1248's analog outputs into a passive Unit Audio summing mixer, with makeup gain and subtle eq and light compression coming from a Thermionic Culture Rooster and a Drawmer 1968 at the end of the chain - the stereo mix is then captured back into the 1248, clocked both internally and off an Apogee Big Ben.

Obviously, this is not particularly scientific, or controlled as a test, except in that it does show you how only changing the clock source changes the sound of the summed bounces, and will give you a feel for what clocking off a Big Ben might bring to the table if you are considering such a thing. At the very least the loops are different sounding with each clock and can provide an example of that difference, weather you prefer it or not in the end.

To my ear/brain perception, the Big Ben tightens up the stereo image and conveys transients with more natural sounding definition/punchiness, which is important enough to me that I spent the extra on a (used) Big Ben - my 2007 Ensemble also sounds better to me clocked off the Big Ben for what it's worth.

At any rate, not interested in arguing over it, which is why I am posting examples for you to judge in your own comfort zone - perhaps like me, the 1248 will be a good match for your setup with an external clock in the mix. Or maybe you'll hear that it is better with the internal clock to your ear - that's cool too.

Thanks for this Hardtoe!
Old 12th November 2014
  #754
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle007 View Post
I also found out recently that OSX also supports AVB when a capable NIC is installed (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4110444). Does this mean that if I add an AVB compatible PCIe NIC card, I can simply use AVB to connect to the 1248 ?
Hey everyone! We just released a new firmware update (1.1.1) for all the AVB interfaces (1248, 16A, 8M, 24Ai/Ao). This update introduces support for direct AVB to capable Macs! You need to be running Yosemite (10.10) and a modern Mac with an AVB-capable ethernet card*. AVB supports up to 128 channels in either direction, depending on your computer's performance.

Getting started with AVB
Starting today, we officially support connecting over AVB to OS X 10.10+. This is just the beginning and things will only improve as the driver and our support mature further. Let me know if you run into any issues so we can iron them out ASAP.

You won't get an update notification from the AVB Discovery app until later today when we roll it out to everyone. For those eager to give it a try now, you can install the update manually.

* I know some of you are running Hackintoshes, so you might run into trouble as far as having the requisite AVB-capable ethernet card.
Old 12th November 2014
  #755
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Hey everyone! We just released a new firmware update (1.1.1) for all the AVB interfaces (1248, 16A, 8M, 24Ai/Ao). This update introduces support for direct AVB to capable Macs! You need to be running Yosemite (10.10) and a modern Mac with an AVB-capable ethernet card*. AVB supports up to 128 channels in either direction, depending on your computer's performance.

Getting started with AVB
Starting today, we officially support connecting over AVB to OS X 10.10+. This is just the beginning and things will only improve as the driver and our support mature further. Let me know if you run into any issues so we can iron them out ASAP.

You won't get an update notification from the AVB Discovery app until later today when we roll it out to everyone. For those eager to give it a try now, you can install the update manually.

* I know some of you are running Hackintoshes, so you might run into trouble as far as having the requisite AVB-capable ethernet card.
mrmiller, this is amazing news!
You are convincing me more and more everyday about buying the 16a for my studio. You are doing a great job here providing all these infos. Please let us have the portable avb capable (2ch i/o) version for the road too and we are in
Old 13th November 2014
  #756
Gear Head
 

mrmiller, many thanks for the AVB-ethernet firmware-release, this is a great step.

I have a question regarding this statement in the firmware release:
"However, Yosemite takes over each device for exclusive use, so they can only stream audio to and from the Mac, not each other. The same is true for all AVB devices connected to the Mac."

Is this a temporary limitation that will change in the future?
The primary concept of AVB is that multiple devices can subscribe to output-streams of a AVB-device. They way I understand it is that this is not possible with the current OSX10.10 setup and you are forced to use the Mac as a 'matrix-router'.

There are numerous workflows where this limitation would be an obstacle and not desirable.
Old 13th November 2014
  #757
AVB works great, but it hogs the web-interface. Without the AVB switch I can't seem to reach the setup/mixer page. I can record from both AVB and USB2 at the same time without troubles, but I can only reach the web-interface from my AVB MacMini.
Old 13th November 2014
  #758
Lives for gear
 
beau_mckee's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Hey everyone! We just released a new firmware update (1.1.1) for all the AVB interfaces (1248, 16A, 8M, 24Ai/Ao). This update introduces support for direct AVB to capable Macs! You need to be running Yosemite (10.10) and a modern Mac with an AVB-capable ethernet card*. AVB supports up to 128 channels in either direction, depending on your computer's performance.

Getting started with AVB
Starting today, we officially support connecting over AVB to OS X 10.10+. This is just the beginning and things will only improve as the driver and our support mature further. Let me know if you run into any issues so we can iron them out ASAP.

You won't get an update notification from the AVB Discovery app until later today when we roll it out to everyone. For those eager to give it a try now, you can install the update manually.

* I know some of you are running Hackintoshes, so you might run into trouble as far as having the requisite AVB-capable ethernet card.
This makes the 24ai and 24ao an extremely attractive purchase with Ethernet! What are the real world latency specs when using Ethernet?
Old 13th November 2014
  #759
Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
I have a question regarding this statement in the firmware release:
"However, Yosemite takes over each device for exclusive use, so they can only stream audio to and from the Mac, not each other. The same is true for all AVB devices connected to the Mac."

Is this a temporary limitation that will change in the future?
The primary concept of AVB is that multiple devices can subscribe to output-streams of a AVB-device. They way I understand it is that this is not possible with the current OSX10.10 setup and you are forced to use the Mac as a 'matrix-router'.

There are numerous workflows where this limitation would be an obstacle and not desirable.
Apple's driver currently uses an exclusive acquisition model as you've described. Things are only going to improve over time as the driver continues to mature. For now, you can handle more complex, shared multi-client workflows by using an interface via USB or TB as a sort of bridge to the AVB network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beau_mckee View Post
This makes the 24ai and 24ao an extremely attractive purchase with Ethernet! What are the real world latency specs when using Ethernet?
Right now, we're seeing round-trip latencies around 464 samples at 48khz and 32 sample buffers. By comparison, at 44.1khz, our USB RTL is 236 samples and Thunderbolt is 135 samples. Not ideal, but as I said, the AVB support is only going to get better over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolandvg99 View Post
AVB works great, but it hogs the web-interface. Without the AVB switch I can't seem to reach the setup/mixer page. I can record from both AVB and USB2 at the same time without troubles, but I can only reach the web-interface from my AVB MacMini.
Good catch! For Thunderbolt and USB, the Mac itself acts as a proxy web server that forwards requests to the device. It might be good to do something similar when connected over ethernet as well. The proxy server should be working and everything should behave as it was before if you're connected via both USB and ethernet. Is that not the case?
Old 13th November 2014
  #760
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
...Good catch! For Thunderbolt and USB, the Mac itself acts as a proxy web server that forwards requests to the device. It might be good to do something similar when connected over ethernet as well. The proxy server should be working and everything should behave as it was before if you're connected via both USB and ethernet. Is that not the case?
Before the upgrade I was able to reach the interface through the USB connected device using its ip-address and port 1280, or by the Motu AVB finder. Neither works after the upgrade. Get a no connected Motu AVB devices found error.
Old 14th November 2014
  #761
I think either the 16A or a set of 24s will be my next converter.
Is the conversion the same in each unit? When pricing them out I get $10 per channel more with the 16A, but I do know that it has TB, which is unread, and no DB25s, which probably drives the price up a bit.
Old 14th November 2014
  #762
I think either the 16A or a set of 24s will be my next converter.
Is the conversion the same in each unit? When pricing them out I get $10 per channel more with the 16A, but I do know that it has TB, which is unread, and no DB25s, which probably drives the price up a bit.
Old 14th November 2014
  #763
Quote:
Originally Posted by sam guaiana View Post
I think either the 16A or a set of 24s will be my next converter.
Is the conversion the same in each unit? When pricing them out I get $10 per channel more with the 16A, but I do know that it has TB, which is unread, and no DB25s, which probably drives the price up a bit.
The DACs (ESS Sabre32 Ultra 8-channel) are the same between the 24Ao and 16A but the 16A has slightly better ADCs than the 24Ai (Cirrus Logic CS5381 vs CS5368).
Old 14th November 2014
  #764
Lives for gear
 
beau_mckee's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
The DACs (ESS Sabre32 Ultra 8-channel) are the same between the 24Ao and 16A but the 16A has slightly better ADCs than the 24Ai (Cirrus Logic CS5381 vs CS5368).
What sort of differences are we talking here both audibly and scientifically? I really love the db25 layout but can't decide between 16A and 24AI at the moment
Old 14th November 2014
  #765
Lives for gear
 
beau_mckee's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post



Right now, we're seeing round-trip latencies around 464 samples at 48khz and 32 sample buffers. By comparison, at 44.1khz, our USB RTL is 236 samples and Thunderbolt is 135 samples. Not ideal, but as I said, the AVB support is only going to get better over time
This is great news thanks mr miller. What are the specs of usb vs Ethernet at 44.1? Thanks for your time
Old 14th November 2014
  #766
Quote:
Originally Posted by beau_mckee View Post
This is great news thanks mr miller. What are the specs of usb vs Ethernet at 44.1? Thanks for your time
Currently, the Yosemite driver only supports sampling rates that are multiples of 48khz (48, 96, and 192). Sorry for being dense, but what specs are you referring to?
Old 14th November 2014
  #767
Lives for gear
 
beau_mckee's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Currently, the Yosemite driver only supports sampling rates that are multiples of 48khz (48, 96, and 192). Sorry for being dense, but what specs are you referring to?
That's okay I poorly worded my question. Just wanted to see the latency differences between USB and Ethernet comparatively so I can plan how to best incorporate into the studio. I think the figures may have already been posted earlier in the thread including thunderbolt round trip latency, so apologies if I'm repeating myself.
Old 14th November 2014
  #768
Gear Head
 

mrmiller, could you confirm the ethernet network port configuration?
- Untagged: web-interface and update-communication
- Tagged-VLAN2: AVB-communication
Old 15th November 2014
  #769
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
This update introduces support for direct AVB to capable Macs! You need to be running Yosemite (10.10) and a modern Mac with an AVB-capable ethernet card.
I see the website says 'any Mac with a Thunderbolt port'. Can you confirm it's that simple to discern a direct AVB capable Mac?

Looking forward to lower latency and 44.1/88.2 support via direct AVB!
Old 15th November 2014
  #770
Gear Nut
Mrmiller. I have a 24 track console that I like, and I see that you have just released the 24 in and the 24 out interface.

If I purchase the 24 output interface, will it be possible to use it for recording via the ADAT ins and outs?
Old 17th November 2014
  #771
Quote:
Originally Posted by beau_mckee View Post
What sort of differences are we talking here both audibly and scientifically? I really love the db25 layout but can't decide between 16A and 24AI at the moment
Technically, the 16A has a lower noise floor and higher dynamic range on its inputs than the 24Ai because it's using a higher quality ADC chip from the same chipmaker. It's a pretty subtle difference. Personally, I would choose based on which layout is more suited to my use case and weigh the price difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beau_mckee View Post
That's okay I poorly worded my question. Just wanted to see the latency differences between USB and Ethernet comparatively so I can plan how to best incorporate into the studio. I think the figures may have already been posted earlier in the thread including thunderbolt round trip latency, so apologies if I'm repeating myself.
Round-trip latencies with 32 sample buffers:
  • Thunderbolt—135 samples at 44.1khz
  • USB—236 samples at 44.1khz
  • AVB—464 samples at 48khz

Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
mrmiller, could you confirm the ethernet network port configuration?
- Untagged: web-interface and update-communication
- Tagged-VLAN2: AVB-communication
We do implement 802.1Q, Qat and Qav as per the AVB spec. All IEEE 1722 (AVB) audio traffic is tagged with VLAN 2. All other traffic is untagged. The updates are actually done over HTTP so that's just standard web traffic. Out of curiosity, why do you ask?

Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
I see the website says 'any Mac with a Thunderbolt port'. Can you confirm it's that simple to discern a direct AVB capable Mac?
Yes, any Mac with Thunderbolt has AVB-capable ethernet hardware, either via built-in ethernet, Apple's Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter or Apple's Thunderbolt display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
Looking forward to lower latency and 44.1/88.2 support via direct AVB!
We're talking to Apple about improving the latency and adding more sample rates. I'll let you know if there are any updates!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kantonesisk View Post
If I purchase the 24 output interface, will it be possible to use it for recording via the ADAT ins and outs?
Of course! You get 3 banks of ADAT which gives you an additional 24 ins and 24 outs (or 12 at 2x sample rates). You can route those however you please. USB is currently limited to 24 channels of your choosing into and 24 channels out of the computer.
Old 17th November 2014
  #772
Gear Nut
Nice to know. I suspected that but I just wanted to be sure.
Old 17th November 2014
  #773
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
We do implement 802.1Q, Qat and Qav as per the AVB spec. All IEEE 1722 (AVB) audio traffic is tagged with VLAN 2. All other traffic is untagged. The updates are actually done over HTTP so that's just standard web traffic. Out of curiosity, why do you ask?
Thank you, that is what I expected.
I am preparing for a setup that involves fiber connections and a larger (mixed-network) port-count than practical with the current Motu-switch (which I really like for its enduser simplicity!).
I am preparing testing with a Netgear GS724Tv4 with the AVB licence, that is to arrive later this week.
Old 17th November 2014
  #774
Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
Thank you, that is what I expected.
I am preparing for a setup that involves fiber connections and a larger (mixed-network) port-count than practical with the current Motu-switch (which I really like for its enduser simplicity!).
I am preparing testing with a Netgear GS724Tv4 with the AVB licence, that is to arrive later this week.
Very cool! I'd love to hear how it goes. Definitely let me know if you encounter any issues or oddities with our interfaces and we'll try to get it sorted ASAP.
Old 18th November 2014
  #775
Lives for gear
 
basmartin's Avatar
What´s up with the phantom power? It get´s really noisy with some mics and with other mics no noise at all. Same issue with my Motu Traveler. Doesn´t it deliver fully 48v? My other mic pres don´t make that noise when phantom power is on.
Old 18th November 2014
  #776
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post


Round-trip latencies with 32 sample buffers:
  • Thunderbolt—135 samples at 44.1khz
  • USB—236 samples at 44.1khz
  • AVB—464 samples at 48khz
1) When you say RTL are you including the 32+32 samples in and out of the DAW. ie - is this analog in to analog out through the DAW?

2) Do you also have these for 96kHz?? (or 88.2)
Old 19th November 2014
  #777
Lives for gear
 
Quantum7's Avatar
Anybody hear any news about the impending Windows drivers?
Old 20th November 2014
  #778
Quote:
Originally Posted by basmartin View Post
What´s up with the phantom power? It get´s really noisy with some mics and with other mics no noise at all. Same issue with my Motu Traveler. Doesn´t it deliver fully 48v? My other mic pres don´t make that noise when phantom power is on.
That's not good! It's definitely a full 48V and we measured a bunch of interfaces earlier today just to confirm. It may come down to a faulty unit or who knows. I'm going to follow up with you in a PM and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProPower View Post
1) When you say RTL are you including the 32+32 samples in and out of the DAW. ie - is this analog in to analog out through the DAW?
Yes, that number includes buffer latency into and out of the daw, through the driver, ADC, DAC and FPGA. Full roundtrip analog out to in. I don't believe it's going through the internal DSP or mixer, but that only adds an additional 6 samples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProPower View Post
2) Do you also have these for 96kHz?? (or 88.2)
I don't but I can get them. For Thunderbolt, at least, I believe the latency in samples should stay the same, which means lower latency in milliseconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quantum7 View Post
Anybody hear any news about the impending Windows drivers?
Still impending. We're hard at work on the USB driver.
Old 21st November 2014
  #779
Just wanted to say that Motu's legacy support is incredible - I was helping a member of a band I work with get a home studio going and dug my ORIGINAL 828 out of the closet for him to try with his recent Macbook Pro.

Found an audio installer with drivers for modern OSX within minutes off the Motu site, and he is happily playing around at home as I type.

I am impressed Motu - no abandoned hardware here and I bought this unit in 2001 to use with a G3 on Mac OS9
Old 21st November 2014
  #780
Lives for gear
I presume it's the Ethernet chipset that makes the new AVB driver compatible with "modern" Macs - I wonder if it's possible to use a PCIe Ethernet card with the same chipset on an older Mac Pro tower.

Mrmiller, do you have any thoughts on this? (And thanks for participating in this forum so candidly)
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