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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 31st October 2014
  #691
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I have great respect for Don Gunn but he would have to prove it to me that he could identify listening through the Apollo converters vs the MOTU in a blind test. I heard the Apollo Quad against an Apogee Symphony and I could not say one was better, but then maybe Don's ears are just better than mine.
Old 31st October 2014
  #692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Yes but with some caveats that depend on your specific use case. There's no quick way to A/B different output pairs and no talkback support. Channels in the mixer are mono or stereo only, so if you have a surround setup, you'll have to do some extra work. What features are you wondering about specifically?
Thank you very much for your reply - we appreciate it! We are using surround setups with 5.x/7.x configs. Together with digital XO/3-way active mains we are using 16 outputs for 7.x monitoring. We are looking into Atmos/Auro3D work as well - so the expandability and flexibility of Motu AVB would be a great asset. We can "work around" specific features as long as the ASIO/WDM PC drivers "see" all available I/O channels of all attached Motu AVB's as "one big audio interface" - that is essential for our software infrastructure (e.g. digital XOs). What I mean by that is attaching a 16A + 1248 to a host PC the driver has to provide the e.g. 12+2+16=30 analog outputs "as one single contiguous audio interface" as opposed to e.g. multiple Stereo output sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
It's definitely something to consider. Let me ask the team about it and I'll get back to you. Out of curiosity, what is your setup such that you need DSD-based monitoring? Pyramix?
We are looking forward to your reply! And yes, we are testing Merging's Pyramix 9 atm - getting great results with MassCore on a X99 platform.
Old 31st October 2014
  #693
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
I have great respect for Don Gunn but he would have to prove it to me that he could identify listening through the Apollo converters vs the MOTU in a blind test. I heard the Apollo Quad against an Apogee Symphony and I could not say one was better, but then maybe Don's ears are just better than mine.
Hey Jay!

I knew I was opening a giant can of worms...

TO ME, the Apollo feels a little more "mushy" in its overall presentation of frequencies, where the MOTU feels more "open". I know we're dancing about architecture here, and this is only how I perceive things; someone else's ears will hear things differently, and for them, the Apollo may be the perfect converter.

I'm merely relating my experience, and it's qualified by me having four different sets of converters in my studio recently. I would encourage anyone else trying to make these decisions to try things out for themselves in their studio, with their ears.
Old 31st October 2014
  #694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleen View Post
Hey Jay!

I knew I was opening a giant can of worms...

TO ME, the Apollo feels a little more "mushy" in its overall presentation of frequencies, where the MOTU feels more "open". I know we're dancing about architecture here, and this is only how I perceive things; someone else's ears will hear things differently, and for them, the Apollo may be the perfect converter.

I'm merely relating my experience, and it's qualified by me having four different sets of converters in my studio recently. I would encourage anyone else trying to make these decisions to try things out for themselves in their studio, with their ears.
As a matter of policy I never tell anyone they do not hear what they say they hear.

But that doesn't mean I necessarily believe they could prove it in a blind test
Old 31st October 2014
  #695
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
that doesn't mean I necessarily believe they could prove it in a blind test
They are quite different and could definitely be differentiated in blind tests. Most of the blind tests on the forum aren't executed well. I've run some (not with these new units) and witnessed people making the same observations without any influence from each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Update Nov 2014: looks like the ADC is in fact a Cirrus Logic CS5381,
Same as the Symphony. Both use Sabre32 chips for the DAC but CS5381 for ADC.
Old 31st October 2014
  #696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionsclaw View Post
That's exactly the kind of feedback we are looking for. Thank you!
+1
Old 31st October 2014
  #697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionsclaw View Post
Thank you very much for your reply - we appreciate it! We are using surround setups with 5.x/7.x configs. Together with digital XO/3-way active mains we are using 16 outputs for 7.x monitoring. We are looking into Atmos/Auro3D work as well - so the expandability and flexibility of Motu AVB would be a great asset. We can "work around" specific features as long as the ASIO/WDM PC drivers "see" all available I/O channels of all attached Motu AVB's as "one big audio interface" - that is essential for our software infrastructure (e.g. digital XOs). What I mean by that is attaching a 16A + 1248 to a host PC the driver has to provide the e.g. 12+2+16=30 analog outputs "as one single contiguous audio interface" as opposed to e.g. multiple Stereo output sets.
If both are connected via USB, they'd show up as two separate interfaces. I don't know Pyramix well, but if you have a way to aggregate devices like Audio MIDI Setup on Mac or Digital Performer, you could use that and connect both via USB perhaps to get your target 30 channels.

If you connect one interface to your PC directly and connect the other via AVB or ADAT to the first, you'll get the computer I/O from one of the boxes which you can route as you please to and from the other box. We're stilling working out Windows, but using Mac as a benchmark, USB is limited to 24 channels in each direction. USB drivers for Windows are coming before Thunderbolt and TB is still quite uncommon in the PC world anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionsclaw View Post
We are looking forward to your reply! And yes, we are testing Merging's Pyramix 9 atm - getting great results with MassCore on a X99 platform.
After talking with some of the other engineers, we think it would be too large a change for anytime in the near future, unfortunately. While the DAC can support DSD as you've said, the rest of the drivers, control software and internals aren't ready for it. I've added it to our list of feature requests nevertheless, and it's something we'll keep in mind down the line!
Old 31st October 2014
  #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
We're using Cirrus Logic for the ADC, specifically their top-of-the-line CS5381 in the 16A and 1248.
And now we have a winner
Old 31st October 2014
  #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
They are quite different and could definitely be differentiated in blind tests. Most of the blind tests on the forum aren't executed well. I've run some (not with these new units) and witnessed people making the same observations without any influence from each other.

I dunno, different OK, maybe, but consistently identified as "better"?

Roger Nichols famously brought the very inexpensive Rane MS 1b mic-pre to a "high end" mic-pre shootout and it finished near the top. That, and other personal experiences, have led me to take all that with a grain of salt.

That said, Don has good ears and I am 66 years old so it could well be he will hear things that I will not.
Old 31st October 2014
  #700
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Got my 1248 last week. Havn't had much time playing with, but seems to work fine. But one thing bothers me: I find controlling the 1248 via the browser a bit slow. For example switching between the routing page and the mixer takes a little to much time, at least on my system. Also noticed that during the AES presentation. Is there any chance of making it quicker?
Old 31st October 2014
  #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basmartin View Post
Got my 1248 last week. Havn't had much time playing with, but seems to work fine. But one thing bothers me: I find controlling the 1248 via the browser a bit slow. For example switching between the routing page and the mixer takes a little to much time, at least on my system. Also noticed that during the AES presentation. Is there any chance of making it quicker?
since it's on your web browser you can open up as many windows as you need and switch between them that way.
Old 31st October 2014
  #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornvalley View Post
since it's on your web browser you can open up as many windows as you need and switch between them that way.
Yes, thanks for the tip.
Old 1st November 2014
  #703
Quote:
Originally Posted by basmartin View Post
Got my 1248 last week. Havn't had much time playing with, but seems to work fine. But one thing bothers me: I find controlling the 1248 via the browser a bit slow. For example switching between the routing page and the mixer takes a little to much time, at least on my system. Also noticed that during the AES presentation. Is there any chance of making it quicker?
We're always looking to speed things up! I'll file a bug about it. Specific spots that feel slow like switching tabs help us optimize. Feel free to send me a PM with specifics and we'll see what we can do. Which browser are you using, by the way? That can make a big difference in performance sometimes.

Cornvalley's suggestion is a great solution, especially if you find yourself constantly switching back and forth between views. You can use the same trick for other interesting uses. Open two mixer tabs in different windows to get two rows of faders, for instance.
Old 1st November 2014
  #704
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Is the conversion on the 1248 and the 16A identical?
Old 1st November 2014
  #705
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamestalus View Post
Is the conversion on the 1248 and the 16A identical?
Yes.
Old 1st November 2014
  #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Yes I mentioned that.
I know you mentioned that, that's where I got the information from actually. The infuriating thing is I added the info to my older post, but it appeared here as a new post, and then the edit button was doing nothing, so I couldn't delete it before anyone could spring on it!
Old 1st November 2014
  #707
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After much research, including here on GS, I think the 1248 will be my next interface.......as soon as MOTU gets those Windows drivers out. So get on that, MOTU.
Old 1st November 2014
  #708
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Can the mixer settings be saved and recalled with my DAW projects? Reading the manual it looks like not? I would have to save mixer settings separately and manually recall them with my individual DAW projects?
Old 1st November 2014
  #709
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I'm really tempted to buy the 1248 as an upgrade for my HD192 + 2408 combo. But my current setup runs over the decimated PCIe card. Does anyone have experience with using the 1248 on USB2 ? Thunderbolt is not yet an option for me.

I wonder if it's possible to use 64 and 128 byte buffers like I can on the PCIe versions without trouble ? For tracking we can use the build in mixer, but while playing virtual instruments, having a small hardware buffer is very pleasant.
Old 1st November 2014
  #710
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle007 View Post
I'm really tempted to buy the 1248 as an upgrade for my HD192 + 2408 combo. But my current setup runs over the decimated PCIe card. Does anyone have experience with using the 1248 on USB2 ? Thunderbolt is not yet an option for me.

I wonder if it's possible to use 64 and 128 byte buffers like I can on the PCIe versions without trouble ? For tracking we can use the build in mixer, but while playing virtual instruments, having a small hardware buffer is very pleasant.
You've actually got a couple of options here. You could run over ADAT slaved to your existing setup with the interface connected to your wireless router via the ethernet port. That would keep your same performance characteristics with minimal additional latency. Once you upgrade your machine, you'd be able to use Thunderbolt.

USB2 works great as an audio class-compliant device using Apple's own built-in driver. Latency is slightly higher than Thunderbolt and you're limited to 48 channels (24 in+out) currently. I can't guarantee you'll be able to use the 64 sample buffers all the time but you've still got a great alternative if it's not keeping up.
Old 1st November 2014
  #711
Gear Maniac
 

Thx. mrmiller. I'd be perfectly fine to know that it runs at 128 bytes. Though how does this limiting to 24+24 work ? Can I choose and mix/match the ports I need or is there a fixed setup with 24/24 channels if I connect over USB2 ?

I also found out recently that OSX also supports AVB when a capable NIC is installed (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4110444). Does this mean that if I add an AVB compatible PCIe NIC card, I can simply use AVB to connect to the 1248 ?
Old 2nd November 2014
  #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
We're always looking to speed things up! I'll file a bug about it. Specific spots that feel slow like switching tabs help us optimize. Feel free to send me a PM with specifics and we'll see what we can do. Which browser are you using, by the way? That can make a big difference in performance sometimes.

Cornvalley's suggestion is a great solution, especially if you find yourself constantly switching back and forth between views. You can use the same trick for other interesting uses. Open two mixer tabs in different windows to get two rows of faders, for instance.
Using Safari. The iOS app seems snappy though. I´ll send you a PM when I get back to my project studio. Thanks!
Old 2nd November 2014
  #713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
If you connect one interface to your PC directly and connect the other via AVB or ADAT to the first, you'll get the computer I/O from one of the boxes which you can route as you please to and from the other box. We're stilling working out Windows, but using Mac as a benchmark, USB is limited to 24 channels in each direction. USB drivers for Windows are coming before Thunderbolt and TB is still quite uncommon in the PC world anyways.
Hi Mr. Miller, I'm a Windows 7x64 user looking to upgrade my old Apogee converters. Currently, I connect via an RME Raydat. Would I be able to use the 1248 or 16A in the same manner (ADAT 1-8 out on the Motu unit to ADAT 1-8 in on the Raydat, using Analog Inputs 1-8) until the USB drivers for Windows are available?

What is the expected latency for 32, 64 & 128 samples? Thanks for your assistance.
Old 2nd November 2014
  #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle007 View Post
Thx. mrmiller. I'd be perfectly fine to know that it runs at 128 bytes. Though how does this limiting to 24+24 work ? Can I choose and mix/match the ports I need or is there a fixed setup with 24/24 channels if I connect over USB2 ?

I also found out recently that OSX also supports AVB when a capable NIC is installed (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4110444). Does this mean that if I add an AVB compatible PCIe NIC card, I can simply use AVB to connect to the 1248 ?
I did dome digging and found the answers already. 24 channels of choice and AVB directly connected to the Mac is unfortunately not yet possible.
Old 2nd November 2014
  #715
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not like this's Avatar
 

I'm ready to click buy on a 1248 & 16A but I have a few questions.

Without using the software myself, I'm just a little confused about how the routing would work to replace my existing workflow.

This would be replacing a physical 24 channel digital mixer for me. I have two sets of monitors JBL 4328s (w/digital input) and Dynaudio BM5a's. I also use an Aviom system for cue mixes for the bands I track (the bulk of my work).

My two questions are:
Can I easily switch between monitors? (S/PDIF for JBL and analog for BM5a)?

What's the recommended setup for talkback? Footswitchable?
Old 3rd November 2014
  #716
Quote:
Originally Posted by basmartin View Post
Using Safari. The iOS app seems snappy though. I´ll send you a PM when I get back to my project studio. Thanks!
If you have another browser installed, give it a try. Chrome is always a good bet, as are Firefox and Opera.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike P View Post
Hi Mr. Miller, I'm a Windows 7x64 user looking to upgrade my old Apogee converters. Currently, I connect via an RME Raydat. Would I be able to use the 1248 or 16A in the same manner (ADAT 1-8 out on the Motu unit to ADAT 1-8 in on the Raydat, using Analog Inputs 1-8) until the USB drivers for Windows are available?
Yessir! You can route to and from the ADAT however you please and have the Raydat slave to the 16A or 1248's clock. To use the web app, you'll need to connect the interface to your network, either directly to your PC with an ethernet cable or to your wireless router. You can find the IP address via the front panel. If you have an iPad or iPhone, you can use the AVB Discovery App in the App Store to pull it up automatically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike P View Post
What is the expected latency for 32, 64 & 128 samples?
The driver's not done so I can't say for sure, unfortunately. It's going to be different over USB and Thunderbolt. The Windows USB driver will be ready first. For reference, the roundtrip latency over USB on Mac at 32 sample buffers is around 236 samples. RTL over thunderbolt is much better, about 135 samples at 32 sample buffers. Mac and Windows are different beasts, though, so these are VERY rough estimates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle007 View Post
I did dome digging and found the answers already. 24 channels of choice and AVB directly connected to the Mac is unfortunately not yet possible.
Yes, you can route the 24 computer in and 24 out channels however you please: onto the network, via ADAT, the analog I/O. The 48 channel restriction is simply the number of computer channels available to route.

As of now, we do not recommend connecting directly to your Mac via AVB. Soon though!
Old 3rd November 2014
  #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Yessir! You can route to and from the ADAT however you please and have the Raydat slave to the 16A or 1248's clock. To use the web app, you'll need to connect the interface to your network, either directly to your PC with an ethernet cable or to your wireless router. You can find the IP address via the front panel. If you have an iPad or iPhone, you can use the AVB Discovery App in the App Store to pull it up automatically.

The driver's not done so I can't say for sure, unfortunately. It's going to be different over USB and Thunderbolt. The Windows USB driver will be ready first. For reference, the roundtrip latency over USB on Mac at 32 sample buffers is around 236 samples. RTL over thunderbolt is much better, about 135 samples at 32 sample buffers. Mac and Windows are different beasts, though, so these are VERY rough estimates.
Thank you very, very much!
Old 3rd November 2014
  #718
Quote:
Originally Posted by not like this View Post
Without using the software myself, I'm just a little confused about how the routing would work to replace my existing workflow.

This would be replacing a physical 24 channel digital mixer for me. I have two sets of monitors JBL 4328s (w/digital input) and Dynaudio BM5a's. I also use an Aviom system for cue mixes for the bands I track (the bulk of my work).

My two questions are:
Can I easily switch between monitors? (S/PDIF for JBL and analog for BM5a)?

What's the recommended setup for talkback? Footswitchable?
There is no built-in talkback mechanism, dimming or monitoring A/B button. These are features we've contemplated, though, and hearing that you're interested in them is good to know! The interfaces are pretty flexible so I'm going to offer some ways to get similar functionality going.

To get something like a talkback setup, you could create an aux mix for the performer and route your analog mic signal to that but keep it muted unless you were talking back. You could make this more streamlined by sending an OSC message to the interface. Create a small TouchOSC or Osculator patch with a single button that you hold for talkback. Or create an Osculator patch that takes MIDI or your footswitch and sends an OSC message to the box.

To A/B different monitoring configurations, you have a couple options. The simplest is to change the routing for the main outs each time. Another option would be to use the Monitor bus (page 24 of the manual). Have that double the main mix. In the Routing pane (page 20), route Mix Main to your A setup and Mix Monitor to your B setup. Keep one muted at a time. Again, you could automate the toggling with an OSC patch.

The Mixer window allows you to hide channels and you can have as many independent windows open in your browser or on your mobile device as you'd like. You could have one window that shows only the two monitor outs and avoid hunting around for the correct channels. Similarly, you could have another window for just the talkback channel or include that side-by-side with the monitor outs.

Hopefully this helps! Sorry there's not a more elegant solution as of now.
Old 4th November 2014
  #719
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Question

My 1248 has been delivered today. It seems that everything works fine, but I found several strange hexagonal spots on the faceplate - see the attached pics for the reference.

So I would like to ask other MOTU 1248 owners: is this normal, or I should ask seller to exchange it?
Attached Thumbnails
MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface-motu_1248_hexspot4.jpg   MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface-motu_1248_hexspot3.jpg   MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface-motu_1248_hexspot2.jpg   MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface-motu_1248_hexspot1.jpg  
Old 4th November 2014
  #720
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I would assume that is from manufacturing and normal.
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