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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 15th September 2014
  #481
Gear Nut
 

Just using the thunderbolt port myself.
Old 15th September 2014
  #482
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabSel View Post
...at a much higher latency...

However, with the upcoming Dante Via, you should be able to integrate any audio interface, like the 1248, into a Dante network (with higher latency as AVB, though)

So it's more like a bonus with the new Motu interfaces to support low latency AVB
Tab - Would you care to elaborate on this claim with some concrete numbers - I am not familiar with the MOTU interfaces intimately, so I am keen to know facts.

Thanks
Old 15th September 2014
  #483
Just curious: would DP be able to automatically compensate for the latency in these new MOTU interfaces?
Old 15th September 2014
  #484
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emrr's Avatar
'direct hardware playthrough' in DP does not work currently. It needs to be implemented. I'm running a mix of DP and the internal low latency mixer to get partially around that during overdubs, not elegant at all.
Old 15th September 2014
  #485
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audinate Tech EU View Post
Tab - Would you care to elaborate on this claim with some concrete numbers - I am not familiar with the MOTU interfaces intimately, so I am keen to know facts.

Thanks
I can't, as there currently IS no Dante Via, as you obviously know
Assuming Dante Via works "somehow" like your DVS, there should be a minimum latency of 6ms on the transport layer, as DVS does not allow - and technically risklessly support - lower latencies without dedicated network hardware, as far as I understand. And Via does some things more than the DVS, too.

As far as I understand AVB, you are guaranteed to have latencies below 2ms in between 7 AVB switch hops on the transport layer, with dedicated hardware. Something you could achieve with dedicated dante hardware, too, but with Dante, dedicated hardware is not obligatory, like with AVB.

Well, at least that is what I understand. I don't use AVB yet, and I can't use Dante Via (I signed up for beta testing though).

I am really curious about Dante Via, especially concerning clock syncing... Would love to try it, can't wait until december
Old 15th September 2014
  #486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Hi Mr Miller. What's the USB latency on a mac with the new driver, please?
At 32 sample buffers, you should be seeing a round-trip latency around 236 samples. The 1248, 16A and 8M are class-compliant USB audio devices which means your computer uses Apple's own Core Audio driver on OS X and iOS.

Thunderbolt latency is better, thanks to the protocol and our driver. Our Thunderbolt driver round-trip latency is currently 135 samples at 32 sample buffers.
Old 15th September 2014
  #487
So to compare apples with apples (so to speak... if you all pardon the appalling pun)

Dante Virtual Soundcard is a software interface - It uses the native network connector
Dante Via does not exist in any user-measurable form (or indeed no real- measurable form in any meaningful way yet) by virtue of not being finished
Dante PCIe hardware soundcard can operate as low as 150uS latency on the rx/tx side of the network, and then the driver can work at 32 samples buffer - 150uS at 48Khz is roughly 8 samples (rounding up)

When comparing a full system - analogue to analogue with suitable converters - the latency performance between the two systems (if I am reading the previous information) is at least comparable between a Dante and Motu system - The principal component of latency in a networked audio system of this nature at the physical layer is the speed of the data connection - gigabit = gigabit - AVB does not after all make charge travel through copper any faster.

Making direct comparisons is so difficult in a fair way - I could be accused of "picking my scenario".... I am sure that we can all conclude that under real life circumstances the major factor comes down to our preferences for the sound of equipment, cost, and other reasons too. I am also certain, that given our preferred set of tools, we will all work to optimise the performance of the system to achieve our requirements - this will inevitably mean opening up the buffers when working with large amounts of processing, and Virtual instruments, say on a DAW.

Add to this the serious obfuscation caused by the 350+ Dante-enabled products shipping today, which will all have diferent latency performances due to the very nature of the differences in function/features of the products, then accounting for network latency becomes very challenging in a systemic (and I would say real-world) networked audio scenario.
Old 15th September 2014
  #488
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Thunderbolt latency is better, thanks to the protocol and our driver.
Our Thunderbolt driver round-trip latency is currently 135 samples at 32
sample buffers.
That sounds good! Please make 32 samples available for Windows TB driver as well. The lack of 32 sample was one of the reason why I returned 828x for my Windows PCs.
Old 16th September 2014
  #489
Here for the gear
 

Please, let's stay on subject and discuss the new MOTU line of products. I for one don't care at all about freakin' Dante Via.

Mr Miller, thanks for the post about the USB latency on Macs. I hope we get the same when the PC driver is released.
Old 16th September 2014
  #490
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andydeckstrous's Avatar
 

Looking forward to getting to hear these interfaces- I am in need of 16 io to drive my small console and these hit a great price point with none of the interface extras that I just don't need. 32 io of Orion overkill for me, and have a lyra as a print adc/monitor dac which will be on a separate machine. Nothing else that I have heard appeals (if dvs supported 44.1 would seriously consider rednet having worked on it regularly), and have high hopes for these- certainly have strong specs on paper. Really keen to hear them- is anyone aware of anyone with these units to hear in the uk? If they sound good a big saving over a 16io symphony for example

Andrew
Old 17th September 2014
  #491
andy - next version of DVS coming soon - think you will like it!
Old 17th September 2014
  #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martin909 View Post
AVB? Bad choice. Should have been Audinate's Dante. With Dante you can use your regular network switches.
There's a possible major benefit with AVB over Dante - Dante being a proprietary protocol, it likely costs money to license the technology. AVB is a IEEE standard, so while companies might have to spend R&D to get actually engineer a solution based on the standard (which means the first products will have recoup cost built in), they can eventually reduce cost on future products. Once these chips that support AVB are prevalent in consumer routers/switches, AVB should be much cheaper (and possibly more pervasive in the industry) than a licensed technology.

All that said, I have NO clue about the licensing for Dante - just speculating based on the IT sector where standards and commodity hardware tend to eventually win over proprietary solutions. Since Dante works over current commodity hardware, it might gain footing.

Regardless of the network protocol that gets used, the R&D effort to move to ethernet should eventually pay for itself - future devices get the ethernet chipset dropped in, and integration with PCs/other network devices becomes minimal. No longer will we have to install the latest drivers to get improvements with reliability/performance/features. Instead we'll just get firmware updates on the devices themselves. Mac/PC/Linux argument doesn't matter, instead it will be chrome/firefox/safari performance. All in all, I'd say this is an exciting time. Can't wait to see how it everything pans out.
Old 18th September 2014
  #493
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andydeckstrous's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audinate Tech EU View Post
andy - next version of DVS coming soon - think you will like it!
genuine music to my ears- we have a huge rednet install and this would make my life a better place
Old 19th September 2014
  #494
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
At 32 sample buffers, you should be seeing a round-trip latency around 236 samples. The 1248, 16A and 8M are class-compliant USB audio devices which means your computer uses Apple's own Core Audio driver on OS X and iOS.

Thunderbolt latency is better, thanks to the protocol and our driver. Our Thunderbolt driver round-trip latency is currently 135 samples at 32 sample buffers.
Thank you very much.
Old 20th September 2014
  #495
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AVB compatibility

mrmiller,

Three questions.

1. As AVB devices, your new interfaces should be able to connect directly to a PC via Echo Streamware. Are you able to confirm this?

2. Are MOTU seeking or intending to seek AVnu certification for these devices?

3. Do they employ AVDECC (IEEE 1722.1)?

Thanks.
Old 20th September 2014
  #496
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Has anyone had a chance to evaluate how it sounds yet? torn between this and the zen studio right now. I think that the connectivity of the motu line is worth the price tag alone if you need it for a large install but on the other hand the zen is really nice in what it has to offer as well. 5 years ago every engineer on the planet would have crapped themselves looking at either one of these units if that puts any of this discussion into perspective
I have listend to a lot of the 4 and 8 channel preamp offerings on the market and almost all of them suffer from the same problems. Brittle highs unfocused lows and a slightly smeared high mid that is pronounced. The BLA stuff does correct these problems in a big way and anyone that does not hear this needs to go back and listen again. That being said if the new Motu line is in the BLA ballpark as far as clarity and how the tracks stack in the mix I'm sold. At that price point there is no complaining allowed. i would rather buy this and be happy without having to mod or ad on to the unit. I'm also a realist and I know that you get what you pay for and 1500 wont get me top of the line purity but on the other hand it should out perform the other 8 channel pre's from 2 and three years ago without having to get it modified. Yes? No? maybe I'm to picky?
I guess my logic is this, it's great that I can have 256 ins and outs over AVB but if the channels are difficult to mix and suffer from the problems that I have already stated then I haven't improved my setup, I've made it worse. 8 x worse then a 32 channel system with crap conversion. Not that I think Motu is crap mind you! but I don't think bells and whistles replace stability and clarity so I'm hoping that they focused on that aspect of their new line and didn't just find clever ways to cram more stuff into one mediocre sounding box like some companies that I won't mention love to do. The newest conversion chips are good to have but a good analog stage is just as important as well!
Old 20th September 2014
  #497
nms
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nms's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephas78 View Post
Has anyone had a chance to evaluate how it sounds yet?
The answers to everything you're asking have been discussed in the thread. You should read it.

You can also read about it here: MOTU.com - Overview

Short answer, New Motu series > Antelope Orion/Zen

The price tag, component quality, and emphasis on conversion quality has been raised significantly compared to past products. Very nice to see.

The Zen/Orions are good, but with this new series you get better converter chips, better specs, cleaner conversion, better connectivity, more product for your money, no snake oil tactics.

Antelope has been evasive about what converter chips they've been using. Motu on the other hand are very forthcoming placing it front & center in their literature. It's only one part of what makes a great converter, but still.

Just keep in mind the Windows drivers aren't out yet.
Old 20th September 2014
  #498
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Thanks nms, I did read the specs and the thread. I should have been more clear with my question. I'm looking for real world experience with the product. I haven't seen to many reviews on it yet
but I also realize that it's still early in the game. You seem to have a handle on this thread though, how do you think this unit would stack against an Apogee 16x?
Old 20th September 2014
  #499
Gear Head
 

Can anyone comment on the build quality of these interfaces? I have a MOTU Traveler and when I press one of the buttons, the whole LCD and other buttons move. Does it seem well made? Is the case of heavy gauge metal?

Thanks!
Old 20th September 2014
  #500
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aaeronn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexxe View Post
Can anyone comment on the build quality of these interfaces? I have a MOTU Traveler and when I press one of the buttons, the whole LCD and other buttons move. Does it seem well made? Is the case of heavy gauge metal?

Thanks!
My 16A build quality is solid - buttons are firm, nothing jiggles, case is metal - doesn't weigh a ton, but it's of sufficient thickness that it doesn't feel flimsy.
Old 20th September 2014
  #501
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaeronn View Post
My 16A build quality is solid - buttons are firm, nothing jiggles, case is metal - doesn't weigh a ton, but it's of sufficient thickness that it doesn't feel flimsy.
Cool, thanks!
Old 20th September 2014
  #502
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Cornvalley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephas78 View Post
Thanks nms, I did read the specs and the thread. I should have been more clear with my question. I'm looking for real world experience with the product. I haven't seen to many reviews on it yet
but I also realize that it's still early in the game. You seem to have a handle on this thread though, how do you think this unit would stack against an Apogee 16x?
I have the 1248 alongside AD16x and a Spider and I haven't felt the slightest need to compare AD's after listening how the 1248 was performing AD-wise. What is noticeable is the interface front panel readout is gorgeous with it's LCD peak levels falling away like leaf drops. Don't know how else to describe it. With a thunderbolt connection it ports user channel names instantly to DP (Digital Performer). No hiccups these days, no bugs, very well thought out mixer app. Amazing price for what it provides. The converters don't seem to be at all like the older models (PCI or FireWire). Clearer and more robust.
Old 21st September 2014
  #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornvalley View Post
I have the 1248 alongside AD16x and a Spider and I haven't felt the slightest need to compare AD's after listening how the 1248 was performing AD-wise. What is noticeable is the interface front panel readout is gorgeous with it's LCD peak levels falling away like leaf drops. Don't know how else to describe it. With a thunderbolt connection it ports user channel names instantly to DP (Digital Performer). No hiccups these days, no bugs, very well thought out mixer app. Amazing price for what it provides. The converters don't seem to be at all like the older models (PCI or FireWire). Clearer and more robust.
Thanks for your input, the fact that you haven't felt the need to compare is a pretty good review. Means it's doing what it out to and staying out of the way. what do you think of the pre's?
Old 21st September 2014
  #504
Here for the gear
 

Has anyone looked into the digigrid stuff? What do you think about Motu going this direction since they have introduced the AVB interfaces. There own version of it would be earth shattering. Out board dsp processing for any plugin over the network at an affordable price would be the clinch. No more being locked into one companies product line for dsp. Just processing power without the need for a second full on computer having to be networked in. Higher track counts with any vst au whatever…… you know……… AVID without the ball busting prices. I'm talkin bout hookin up a mac mini and calling it a day anyone else down for that? imaginaaaaation imaginaaaation land.
Old 21st September 2014
  #505
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Cornvalley's Avatar
[QUOTE=Cephas78;10426673]Thanks for your input, the fact that you haven't felt the need to compare is a pretty good review. Means it's doing what it out to and staying out of the way. what do you think of the pre's?[/

Outboard pres would provide more clean gain but the converters are quite good. That's the best I can give you.
Old 21st September 2014
  #506
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Cornvalley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephas78 View Post
I'm talkin bout hookin up a mac mini and calling it a day anyone else down for that? imaginaaaaation imaginaaaation land.
that's exactly what I did! Made some compromises but downsizing and simplifying is a beautiful thing. This is truly an example of 'less is more'. Thank goodness having lightpipe for the AD16x and Spider.
Old 21st September 2014
  #507
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Cornvalley's Avatar
Mac Mini on left replaces G5 in machine room.
Attached Thumbnails
MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface-dsc_1757.jpg  
Old 21st September 2014
  #508
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornvalley View Post
Mac Mini on left replaces G5 in machine room.
awesome now I know someone is thinkin the way I do. At this price range you could still buy another mac mini and network it for more dsp if you need in the box plugin power but I still would like to see motu go all the way and do what waves did at a more affordable price.
Old 21st September 2014
  #509
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
The answers to everything you're asking have been discussed in the thread. You should read it.

You can also read about it here: MOTU.com - Overview

Short answer, New Motu series > Antelope Orion/Zen

The price tag, component quality, and emphasis on conversion quality has been raised significantly compared to past products. Very nice to see.

The Zen/Orions are good, but with this new series you get better converter chips, better specs, cleaner conversion, better connectivity, more product for your money, no snake oil tactics.

Antelope has been evasive about what converter chips they've been using. Motu on the other hand are very forthcoming placing it front & center in their literature. It's only one part of what makes a great converter, but still.

Just keep in mind the Windows drivers aren't out yet.
Antelope zen sounds really really good. Maybe far better than Antelope poor examples. 12 preamps, 8 line in, 20 tracks at the same time, excellent clock and built quality, excellent headphones out. Usb latency isn't a problem here, on an old w7 laptop and a w8.1 desktop. No complaint, and i will compare it to the new motu line soon but those products are really differents.
Old 22nd September 2014
  #510
Absolutely love my 1248! Been gigging it for past month or so as the centerpiece of a 5 person IEM setup + I/O from Ableton Live.
Everything sounds great, and the interface is super sleek. Hoping that there are more good things to come as newer drivers get rolled out.

Question for anyone who may know... is there any word yet on the OSC support/documentation that was mentioned a while back? The thought of being able to control Live & the 1248 aux mixes all from within Lemur is driving me crazy
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