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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 29th August 2014
  #421
Have done some testing using AVB, coupling my 8m directly to my Mac Mini's ethernet port. It works, but with random glitches in DP, Logic and Audio Recorder Pro. Reaper has less glitches, but they were audible at random intervals. I guess this will be perfect after some firmware tweaking. Interesting times.
Old 29th August 2014
  #422
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It's good to hear these reports.
Old 29th August 2014
  #423
Gear Nut
Be sure to listen at all sample rates. I seem to remember my MOTU 8M sounding really muffled at 96KHz.
Old 30th August 2014
  #424
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Is TB working on Windows yet? Ethernet with the MOTU Switch works on Windows 7 at least right Lol that's the connection I plan to use then I'll just use the thunderbolt with the MacBook Pro on the road.
Old 30th August 2014
  #425
Ok, glitches sorted. Switching to internal sync in "Audio MIDI setup" the did the trick (used AVB before). Able to record through AVB on my MacMini '11 server while using my MacBook Pro 2.2 '07 for FX and backup recording. This stuff is great for live gigs.
Old 30th August 2014
  #426
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougS View Post
I like the way the software works on these. If I'm reading the website right - instead of installing something on your computer and having this connect through the computer to the device - these new Motu's work like a network appliance (like a firewall or router). To access and manipulate the internal mixer, FX, Dynamics and setup screens, the device acts like a webserver that serves up web-pages. It looks like all the setup screens and mixers are HTML 5 pages that can be access from any browser on your computer, tablet or smartphone over a traditional LAN - this includes a wireless network (assuming you have wireless router). Allowing you to sit in a prime listening spot to mix a live production from a tablet - without being constrained by cables.

Looks like you can bring one of these Motu units and a small wireless router to a live gig. Connect it to the router with a short CAT5 line (no computer needed). Then go to your iPad or android tablet, punch in the device's URL, login and start mixing in real time from anywhere in the building. Very nice.
Yup—it all works exactly as you've described! We built them for use in all sorts of scenarios, from the studio to the venue. The web app itself is all standard HTML, CSS and JavaScript so any modern browser on any device will work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolandvg99 View Post
Have done some testing using AVB, coupling my 8m directly to my Mac Mini's ethernet port. It works, but with random glitches in DP, Logic and Audio Recorder Pro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rolandvg99 View Post
Ok, glitches sorted. Switching to internal sync in "Audio MIDI setup" the did the trick (used AVB before). Able to record through AVB on my MacMini '11 server while using my MacBook Pro 2.2 '07 for FX and backup recording. This stuff is great for live gigs.
As I mentioned before, the Mac AVB support is ongoing and we don't really recommend using it yet. That said, I'm excited to hear you're getting decent results with it so far! We're really excited about the potential there. And things will only get better.
Old 30th August 2014
  #427
Quote:
Originally Posted by projektk View Post
Is TB working on Windows yet? Ethernet with the MOTU Switch works on Windows 7 at least right Lol that's the connection I plan to use then I'll just use the thunderbolt with the MacBook Pro on the road.
We're still working on our Windows driver. Ethernet (no MOTU AVB Switch required) will allow you to control the device, though, whether it's Windows, Mac or Linux, iOS or Android. You won't be able to stream audio to your PC, however, unless you're using the digital I/O into another interface connected directly to the computer. They're also audio class compliant USB devices so if you had an audio class compliant driver for Windows, that might work but we haven't tested it.
Old 30th August 2014
  #428
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emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldTools View Post
Be sure to listen at all sample rates. I seem to remember my MOTU 8M sounding really muffled at 96KHz.
This is curious to me. If you look at my response plots earlier in the thread, there's no obvious reason for this. I would suspect possible sample rate conflict in the setup that wasn't obviously glitching.
Old 30th August 2014
  #429
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
We're still working on our Windows driver. Ethernet (no MOTU AVB Switch required) will allow you to control the device, though, whether it's Windows, Mac or Linux, iOS or Android. You won't be able to stream audio to your PC, however, unless you're using the digital I/O into another interface connected directly to the computer. They're also audio class compliant USB devices so if you had an audio class compliant driver for Windows, that might work but we haven't tested it.
Hi Michael,
I recently tested RTL of 828X Thunderbolt interface with Gigabyte X97X-UD7-TH motherboard which has Thunderbolt 2 ports (OS Win 8.1, MOTU driver latest), but the RTL was not as fantastic as I anticipated (if you want to know exact figreus, please PM me). Those figures were somewhre around FW interfaces like Steinberg MR816 etc. It wasn't as good as Mackie Blackbird to be exact. The big negative was the lack of 32 sample buffer, and I anticipate RTL figures are good and stable like PCI/PCIe interfaces.

I'm really looking forward to seeing Windows TB driver for these units, since I anticipate the AD/DA are very good sounding. And as soon as you have the official release, I'll use the B&H store credit, I got for the 828X RMA!

Thanks for chiming in!
All the best
Old 30th August 2014
  #430
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masaaki View Post

I anticipate the AD/DA are very good sounding. And as soon as you have the official release, I'll use the B&H store credit, I got for the 828X RMA!
Just to clarify, the 828x doesn't have the upgraded converters and audio path of these new AVB units. It has the same conversion as the 828mk3 Hybrid.

As far as I'm aware anyways. Michael?
Old 30th August 2014
  #431
Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Just to clarify, the 828x doesn't have the upgraded converters and audio path of these new AVB units. It has the same conversion as the 828mk3 Hybrid.

As far as I'm aware anyways. Michael?
I meant I'll get one of 1248, 8M, or 16A using the B&H store credit I got by returning 828X.

But if TB driver for Win isn't ready by holiday, then I'll use the credit for fast zoom lens for my panasonic GH3....so, hooray MOTU!
Old 31st August 2014
  #432
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Lolo22's Avatar
 

I'm in the same boat. really wish these windows drivers are released soon. Just sold my old trusted Mr816. went to Audient, but will need more I/O, selling it now.

These new Motu boxes does look great.
Sitting in the middle between the 1248 and RME UFX!!!
Old 31st August 2014
  #433
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolo22 View Post
These new Motu boxes does look great.
Sitting in the middle between the 1248 and RME UFX!!!
Why the tough decision? The 1248 has better converters and choice of USB, TB, & AVB for connectivity. It's just a matter of getting those windows drivers ready soon.
Old 31st August 2014
  #434
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Lolo22's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Why the tough decision? The 1248 has better converters and choice of USB, TB, & AVB for connectivity. It's just a matter of getting those windows drivers ready soon.
At this stage I absolutely favours the 1248. Obviously still quite early to tell. Not that many reviews yet. But its the last part that you just mentioned that is quite important to me. WINDOWS drivers! As I'm personally pretty much without a interface atm. Hope they are available soon. Thats why im looking at the ufx as well.
Old 31st August 2014
  #435
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projektk's Avatar
 

Glad to know TB drivers are being worked on since I'll be able to use that soon :D
Old 31st August 2014
  #436
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loujudson's Avatar
Back to the question of balanced outputs where the ring mustn't be shorted - in a quick setup (remote recording) situation, for example driving a headphone amp, a TS plug inserted halfway in would work fine, wouldn't it? Polarity might be reversed but is there any reason it would not be useful?

I am not to worried about it as I have a pair of Mogami 10 foot insert cables I could use, which I will put in my kit for when they are needed!
Old 3rd September 2014
  #437
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
Back to the question of balanced outputs where the ring mustn't be shorted - in a quick setup (remote recording) situation, for example driving a headphone amp, a TS plug inserted halfway in would work fine, wouldn't it? Polarity might be reversed but is there any reason it would not be useful?

I am not to worried about it as I have a pair of Mogami 10 foot insert cables I could use, which I will put in my kit for when they are needed!
It may work but it's certainly not ideal. If you want the best sound from your box, use TRS going into a balanced input and TRS with the ring lifted going into an unbalanced input.
Old 3rd September 2014
  #438
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loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
It may work but it's certainly not ideal. If you want the best sound from your box, use TRS going into a balanced input and TRS with the ring lifted going into an unbalanced input.
You misunderstand: If I use only the tip-connected TS, and not the ring one, it does the same thing. I'm talking about a possible time when feeding an unbalanced input, like a headphone amp I have. AND I already own several sets of insert cables I could use for the purpose. I'm not going to alter an otherwise normal cable in a quick workaround situation! :-)

I still have to wonder why the output circuit is not robust enough to withstand a shorted negative side of the output... I don't inderstand circuit design well enough.
Old 3rd September 2014
  #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
Back to the question of balanced outputs where the ring mustn't be shorted - in a quick setup (remote recording) situation, for example driving a headphone amp, a TS plug inserted halfway in would work fine, wouldn't it? Polarity might be reversed but is there any reason it would not be useful?

I am not to worried about it as I have a pair of Mogami 10 foot insert cables I could use, which I will put in my kit for when they are needed!
This will likely work but may have more hum than going balanced. The beauty of balanced outs is that any common mode noise (typically 60 or 120 Hz) between hot and gnd or cold and gnd is cancelled out.

To drive a 22dBu (to keep the math simple) output one needs ~10Vrms. Most audio opamps can drive lets say 20mA. If we short an output - current is now the short circuit current limit of the opamp and can heat it up (possibly too much) or just cause noise in things by drawing this excessive current. One can easily put a resistor on the output - 100 ohms = 1 Watt @ 10V rms (pretty big resistor) - 1kOhm = 100mW (doable ) - BUT - now the Common mode rejection is dominated by the precision matching of these parts. 0.1% is doable (gets at least 60dB possible) but is now a special cost item. Also 1K is pretty high for an output drive impedance (50 to 100 ohms is better - but then 0.1% 1W power resistors .... )

You get the idea - it can and is done every day - but takes careful consideration....

But in the end - I agree - they should have designed this in (I so wish Digidesign/Avid would have -- LOL)
Old 3rd September 2014
  #440
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emrr's Avatar
The stated output Z suggests output limiting resistors; virtually everything has them of some size, even something like THAT 1646 or DRV134 have built in limiting resistors.

Lou's idea works fine for his purpose.

I'll quote from a DIY thread about output topologies which I believe to be relevant:

Quote:
The output stage is a classic two inverting output. The first one inverts the input signal, and from its output, there is a derivation that goes to the second inverting stage...
Quote:
I know it's classic, and it's known to have issues.
1) The least is that you loose 6dB if you use it unbalanced
2) In unbalanced mode, it does not cancel common-mode noise, which the other implementations proposed do.
3) If you connect it to an unbalanced input without taking proper precautions, one leg is shorted to ground, causing not only to lose 6dB, but also inducing nasty distortion, that can propagate into the other outputs via ground /rails.

Tascam have used it for years in some of their products and it's always been a problem integrating them in a studio environment where they would be on a patchbay.
multiple output balanced buffer board
Old 3rd September 2014
  #441
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Thanks y'all, for the references, the math, and the precautions. I am quite sure it will all work out fine!

I will be using it mainly for remote recording, so the situations can vary and I do know what to do! :-)
<L>
Old 3rd September 2014
  #442
Just wanted to let everyone know that we just released our first driver update (1.0.1)! For those of you with the Mac AVB Discovery app installed, you should be seeing a notification soon. It includes a bunch of bug fixes as well as improved round-trip latency—now down to 135 samples at 32 sample buffers over Thunderbolt.
Old 4th September 2014
  #443
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emrr's Avatar
nms, I sent you a PM with test file link weeks ago, if you haven't noticed.
Old 4th September 2014
  #444
nms
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
nms, I sent you a PM with test file link weeks ago, if you haven't noticed.
Good thing you mentioned! I have no recollection of it but I see it there now. I'll run it through RMAA when I get a moment and post in the next 24h. Thanks.
Old 4th September 2014
  #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
The stated output Z suggests output limiting resistors; virtually everything has them of some size, even something like THAT 1646 or DRV134 have built in limiting resistors.

Lou's idea works fine for his purpose.

I'll quote from a DIY thread about output topologies which I believe to be relevant:

multiple output balanced buffer board
The OP resistors, usually anywhere from 50 to 200 ohms are to isolate
capacitive loads from the opamps. The opamps themselves are usually short
circuit proof but obviously will produce lots of distortion when faced with
a load as 100 ohms.

To do what you want takes a balanced floating OP stage that is essentially a
SS emulation of a transformer. Whereas this topology is fool proof it is
certainly not as simple and generally has more coloration than a straight
balanced / fixed OP stage. I actually prefer the fixed balanced approach, just
know what you are dealing with and know how to correctly interface it with
other products.

Which brings me to the last subject - transformers. Great devices that should
be used more often. There is lot's of good information on Jensens website.

Terry
Old 4th September 2014
  #446
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rob_lee's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dj Royal Tee View Post
Can't Friggin wait!

Though no Headphone and no Volume Knob on the 16A... still gettin 1
Just wondering why these were left out on this unit? The 16A seemed perfect for me until i seen there was no headphone or volume knob. Oh well.
Old 5th September 2014
  #447
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GP_Hawk's Avatar
Would the 16A work out daisy chained to a Hilo TB?
Old 5th September 2014
  #448
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I'm in the market for and upgrade. I currently run a Metric Halo 2882, and a BLA modified ADA8000. My goal is to get 32 analog in/out. My original plan was to either replace my current set up with an Orion 32, or add a Lynx 16, or UA 16. Then I saw saw the 16A. My concern is MOTU conversion/sound quality. I sold my 828MKII for the Metric Halo, and was blown away by the difference in quality. For anyone who has heard these, how does the 16A compare to the 828MKII, if its in the same league, not interested. If it's at least as good as my current setup, I'd be interested. How does it compare to the ones I've mentioned?
Old 5th September 2014
  #449
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Deckdaddy's Avatar
I already got the Orion but would love to hear a serious comparison between the Orion and the 16a, not just a stereo loopback (well that too) but 16 channels of analog source sent to both converters running their internal clocks. I'm interested in the result of good clock vs chip, I believe my Orion sounds pretty natural/organic when recording because of the clock.
Old 6th September 2014
  #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Good thing you mentioned! I have no recollection of it but I see it there now. I'll run it through RMAA when I get a moment and post in the next 24h. Thanks.
Looking forward to this, cheers!
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