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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface
Old 8th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4021
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amundsen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumfix View Post
Should work just fine.

I'm using a similar setup with a win laptop connected by USB and a Linux desktop connected by AVB.
Good to know, thanks a lot!

I am also curious to know how AVB functions on a Linux desktop. Is it through Wine?
Old 8th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4022
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amundsen View Post
Hello,

I am very interested in these interfaces. I know that MOTU recommends to connect them to a computer over Thunderbolt or USB, however I'd be interested to know how well they function whenever connected to a computer over Ethernet/AVB.
OSX has AVB drivers built-in, so it's just a matter of hooking up to an ethernet port.

Apparently the latency, which has slowly crept down over the years (the efficiency of the coding is in Apple's hands), currently stands at around 8ms at 1x sample rates (44/48k). This is double the USB figure, which itself is double the TB one.

If you're happy with 8ms (or thereabouts - don't quote me on that), then you should be good-to-go.
Old 8th July 2020
  #4023
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@ Monkey Man et al, Ethernet AVB latency on computers is of great interest to me - you’re saying around 8 ms but I’m wondering if anyone has done any real-world tests lately, like on Catalina.

On another note, wouldn’t it be awesome if somebody could make an audio driver for a PCIe Ethernet card that would only carry AVB (no TCP/IP or other protocols), optimized for latency. Then the low-latency AVB world would be at my disposal on my meager 12-core 2012 Mac Pro tower, which still does everything very well except Thunderbolt.
Old 9th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4024
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

I've got the same tower as you, mate. Nothin' wrong with that baby and I'm hangin' onto it 'til Apple releases an ARM tower one day.

The rough figure I gave you applied to OS 10.10 AFAICR, so there may well have been an improvement over the course of the following 5 integer OS updates. That's all I've got mate.
Old 9th July 2020
  #4025
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:D

I used “meager” sarcastically. I love my Mac Pro. While Apple seems bitter about its existence, it remains a very viable machine.
Old 9th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4026
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Oh, I realise that mate. Just agreein' with ya.
Old 11th July 2020
  #4027
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gravyface's Avatar
Anyone using their MOTU AVB-based interface with personal mixing? They kind of talk about "musicians controlling their mixes" in the product page for the Monitor 8 via the web control app, but not sure how idiot-proof it is, like I wouldn't want them accessing the full mixer at all.

The Qu-You app I'm using now on Android tablets is so simple: assign the tracks you want, big wheel fader that's touch-optimized, etc.

Curious how close the MOTU web control app comes to that.
Old 12th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4028
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
Anyone using their MOTU AVB-based interface with personal mixing? They kind of talk about "musicians controlling their mixes" in the product page for the Monitor 8 via the web control app, but not sure how idiot-proof it is, like I wouldn't want them accessing the full mixer at all.

The Qu-You app I'm using now on Android tablets is so simple: assign the tracks you want, big wheel fader that's touch-optimized, etc.

Curious how close the MOTU web control app comes to that.
You can lock out performers from Main Mix (password protected), leaving them to control only their Aux Mix. You can help make it easy for them by using a subgroup for all drums, for example.

I wouldn't call it idiot proof, but I also try to keep idiots out of my studio.
Old 14th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula View Post
@ Monkey Man et al, Ethernet AVB latency on computers is of great interest to me - you’re saying around 8 ms but I’m wondering if anyone has done any real-world tests lately, like on Catalina.
Last I checked, MOTU says AVB over Ethernet requires a Mac with built-in Thunderbolt. Unless something's changed, this rules out the 2012 Mac Pro, no?

https://motu.com/avb/using-your-motu...-avb-ethernet/

Last edited by 6strings; 14th July 2020 at 08:03 PM.. Reason: added MOTU support link
Old 15th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4030
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Last I checked (years ago), all you need is a PCI AVB-ethernet card, so in theory you could go back further than 2012.
Old 15th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Last I checked (years ago), all you need is a PCI AVB-ethernet card, so in theory you could go back further than 2012.
From MOTU: "To use AVB Ethernet, all you need is a recent Mac (any Mac that has a Thunderbolt port on it) with Mac OS X El Capitan (10.11) installed." I searched and searched and there's no mention of any kind of support on non-thunderbolt for AVB.

Are you using AVB ethernet on a 2012 MP? If so, how is that working out for you? I can't find any references out there of anyone else doing this...

Last edited by 6strings; 15th July 2020 at 08:15 PM..
Old 15th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
Last I checked, MOTU says AVB over Ethernet requires a Mac with built-in Thunderbolt. Unless something's changed, this rules out the 2012 Mac Pro, no?

https://motu.com/avb/using-your-motu...-avb-ethernet/
Yes, Thunderbolt port is noted there just as a determinant attribute. In another words.. all older Macs, which doesn't have TB ports, has also built-in Ethernet ports without AVB support.
You need hardware support for AVB related standards on devices in AVB network.

There are add-on PCIe cards with Intel i210 chips (with hardware support for AVB), which you can buy for your old MacPro.

Either from Sonnet:
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/p...igpciepro.html
or Small Tree:
https://small-tree.net/products/giga.../p2eg-1-t-gbe/

Both those cards has right Intel chip, but I've personally never tested their drivers (that's also necessary piece to the puzzle) with AVB devices. Although I've read post at some forum, where some user reported AVB compatibility of the Sonnet card. You can of course also contact both companies directly with that particular question.

However if you read through MOTU's AVB application notes, you'll find, built-in AVB software endpoint in macOS has lot of woes. Mainly it doesn't support 44100 based rates (at all!) and has various reliability issues related to particular macOS versions and builds. Also according to all reports, which I had chance to read, it performs worse than USB connection. Honestly there are no hints, that Apple made any progress in possible improvements of built-in AVB support from 10.11 (5y ago), so some hope for bright future doesn't apply there.
That naturally brings me question, whether it is worth of efforts and investments to make that built-in client working at your system.

I can imagine couple of scenarios.

Old Mac is sole computer with MOTU AVB interface
- well, connect it via USB, job done.

You'd like to share the interface between some other computer with TB/USB and this old cheese grater.
- if stereo playback/record is enough for work, then I'd simply connect two Toslink cables from MacPro to respective ports at MOTU and use it via built-in audio interface and route that in mixer to respective I/Os, so it will play/capture with both computers.
- if more channels will be necessary, then I'd get some suitable USB interface for connection with the main MOTU unit. Quite few options - ADAT.. like RME DigiFace USB (that's safe bet and my recommendation, but likely you can find also something bit cheaper) or AVB via second smaller MOTU unit like UltraLite AVB or likely also RME DigiFace AVB (I haven't tried interoperability, but there are some mentions at RME forum).

Michal
Old 15th July 2020
  #4033
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ponzi's Avatar
I think avb works great between motu devices, but trying to go to computer not so much...
Old 16th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4034
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I think avb works great between motu devices, but trying to go to computer not so much...
It works with modern macOS releases well enough on supported hardware, but you find out pretty quickly that their Ethernet protocol stacks are optimized for throughput and low CPU utilization rather than low latency. I think USB is generally a better bet if Thunderbolt isn't an option.
Old 16th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4035
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
From MOTU: "To use AVB Ethernet, all you need is a recent Mac (any Mac that has a Thunderbolt port on it) with Mac OS X El Capitan (10.11) installed." I searched and searched and there's no mention of any kind of support on non-thunderbolt for AVB.

Are you using AVB ethernet on a 2012 MP? If so, how is that working out for you? I can't find any references out there of anyone else doing this...
Sorry I was AFK yesterday, but Michal has kindly answered this for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
Yes, Thunderbolt port is noted there just as a determinant attribute. In another words.. all older Macs, which doesn't have TB ports, has also built-in Ethernet ports without AVB support.
You need hardware support for AVB related standards on devices in AVB network.

There are add-on PCIe cards with Intel i210 chips (with hardware support for AVB), which you can buy for your old MacPro.

Either from Sonnet:
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/p...igpciepro.html
or Small Tree:
https://small-tree.net/products/giga.../p2eg-1-t-gbe/
Thank you, Michal.

As for your and LG's misgivings, IIRC there were reports here in this thread some years ago from a couple o' members who claimed flawless performance via AVB-capable ethernet cards, so there's that.
Old 16th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4036
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amundsen View Post
Good to know, thanks a lot!

I am also curious to know how AVB functions on a Linux desktop. Is it through Wine?
No i'm using an i210 based network card and the trivial AVB driver that i wrote 1,5 years ago (actually modified to original AVnu driver for use as an alsa soundcard).
https://github.com/Drumfix/avb4linux
Old 16th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
Yes, Thunderbolt port is noted there just as a determinant attribute. In another words.. all older Macs, which doesn't have TB ports, has also built-in Ethernet ports without AVB support.
You need hardware support for AVB related standards on devices in AVB network....
Thanks, Michal, for your detailed and informative response.

I was looking into AVB/Ethernet as my setup requires a 15' cable run from my interface. But from your description, it doesn't sound like AVB on the Mac is not all it's cracked up to be...
Old 16th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4038
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
Thanks, Michal, for your detailed and informative
response.
You're welcome.

Quote:
I was looking into AVB/Ethernet as my setup requires a 15' cable run from my interface. But from your description, it doesn't sound like AVB on the Mac is not all it's cracked up to be...
Yes, unfortunately, the built-in AVB endpoint in mac OS has several limitations. Besides performance, for instance that 48k only will be showstopper for me personally. Even if I happen to record majority of stuff at 48k based rates, I will definitely need to have option to play material with 44.1 based rates natively without any conversions.

However your 15' cable should be fine with USB 2.0 at your Mac Pro. If I'm converting correctly, it fits to specs, which is 5 meters between devices (eg. computer and interface).
Avoid any M-F extenders, get some good straight 5 m USB A-B cable (eg. "printer" cable), connect it directly from computer to interface and you should be ready to go.

Michal
Old 20th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4039
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I think avb works great between motu devices, but trying to go to computer not so much...
Yeah I'll second this. When I first got my 16a I was connecting it to a 2011 Imac (no TB) via USB. I was having some sort of grounding issue and getting some digital hash noise, so I tried AVB over ethernet....it worked, but it ended up ramping up CPU usage in a way that made the fan just take off. As I recall, latency and stability was also worse than USB. Got a newer mac with TB and never looked back. The only issue is you have to configure your studio physically to deal with the short nature of 6' TB cables, although I believe you can get 10'.
Old 21st July 2020 | Show parent
  #4040
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by evoltap View Post
Yeah I'll second this. When I first got my 16a I was connecting it to a 2011 Imac (no TB) via USB. I was having some sort of grounding issue and getting some digital hash noise, so I tried AVB over ethernet....it worked, but it ended up ramping up CPU usage in a way that made the fan just take off. As I recall, latency and stability was also worse than USB. Got a newer mac with TB and never looked back. The only issue is you have to configure your studio physically to deal with the short nature of 6' TB cables, although I believe you can get 10'.
Some things just seem like they're not meant to be, and require heroic effort if they can be made to work at all. My 828es works great with usb 2. It may be that I need super low latency to record singing, but I have not tried that yet. I think guitar can handle 20ms latency no prob as that is like being 10 feet in front of the amp. Thunderbolt on a pc is another heroic effort type thing and I will not do it as long as usb works.

Next gen of motu will have usb c or 3 or whatver all names this has been given. I will be interested how those work. I think the 828 could do the job more than 10 yrs as it does such a good job.
Old 21st July 2020 | Show parent
  #4041
Gear Head
 

It's funny to see how a driver that was hacked together during a christmas break outperforms the driver of a multi billion company by a 1000 miles both in latency and performance.
To give some numbers:
Roundtrip latency at 44100/64: 4.3ms with a CPU utilisation by the driver of 0.3%.
Lowest roundtrip latency at 192000/24: 0.73ms

And you can certainly use all available samplerates.
Old 22nd July 2020 | Show parent
  #4042
tft
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumfix View Post
It's funny to see how a driver that was hacked together during a christmas break outperforms the driver of a multi billion company by a 1000 miles both in latency and performance.
To give some numbers:
Roundtrip latency at 44100/64: 4.3ms with a CPU utilisation by the driver of 0.3%.
Lowest roundtrip latency at 192000/24: 0.73ms

And you can certainly use all available samplerates.
i am interested in this driver for my 112D. any source or info where to find it?
which os versions will it run with?
thanks in advance,
mathias
Old 30th July 2020
  #4043
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gravyface's Avatar
Can any AVB interface be combined with another for an aggregate of I/O?

I track at my studio (16 inputs minimum; 24 ideal) but mix at home mostly, where I would want 4x4 analog I/O minimum, 8x8 preferred.

Leaning towards 828es plus a 24ai, but maybe 1248 plus 8A?
Old 30th July 2020 | Show parent
  #4044
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
Can any AVB interface be combined with another for an aggregate of I/O?

I track at my studio (16 inputs minimum; 24 ideal) but mix at home mostly, where I would want 4x4 analog I/O minimum, 8x8 preferred.

Leaning towards 828es plus a 24ai, but maybe 1248 plus 8A?
I just slapped together an 8pre-es and a LP32 together over AVB with the 8pre-es as the master attached to the Mac and the lp32 acting as a “AVB expander”. I have further pres and stuff going in and out of these two boxes and I made it all work by myself and I am not super talented.

It all appears as one thing to the DAW, and mixes down in the Motu internal mixer.
Old 30th July 2020
  #4045
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ponzi's Avatar
From what I can see, this thread is where the motu action is. There are two new audio interfaces from motu--the M2 and M4. These are minimalist interfaces that will do the job for many home production types. They have a usb-c socket. I will be interested if anyone uses such a device to see if its better for audio than regular usb. I imagine that motu will put usb-c on all new products.
Old 31st July 2020 | Show parent
  #4046
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gravyface's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gollumsluvslave View Post
I've had Monitor 8 and have used it as interface and foldback monitor for plenty of full band tracking sessions (both my own band and a few mates bands)

We had no issues, and the guys loved being able to tweak their own monitor mix on their phone.

Once you get your head around the Motu AVB software mixer (especially it's routing), it's incredibly flexible, here's a quick overview of what I had going on:-

Audient ASP800 > Monitor 8 ADAT in (8 channels of drums, room pair and close mics)
Silver Bullet > Monitor 8 Analog 1/2 (drum overheads)
Digitech GSP1101 > Monitor 8 Analog 3 (GTR 1)
BOSS GT-Pro > Monitor 8 Analog 4 (GTR 2)
DI Box > Monitor 8 Analog 5 (Bass)
Edirol MicPre > Analog 6 (Guide Vox 1)
Edirol MicPre > Analog 7 (Guide Vox 2)

Using the Motu software, the 8 adat ins, and the 8 analog ins can be routed to up to 6 AUX / Cue busses, each with their own levels. Only Aux A thru D are stereo, though, E and F pass out summed mono (which is handly for my Avantone cube!)

I've never recorded more than a 4 piece combo, but as long as u have more ADAT pres for example, you could get up to 24 tracks simulatenously recorded and have dedicate cues for up to 7 people (there are Aux outs that could have the main monitor mix routed to them for example)

It's an incredible bang for buck piece! An the beauty of the AVB system is it's exapndable; I recently added a 16A and retain all the flexibility of the Monitor 8...

This is what I'm concerned about losing when I sell my Qu-24 and replace it with some combination of AVB-enabled MOTU interfaces (probably 828es and 16A).

How easy is this for the artists to manage themselves, assuming I (the engineer) would setup the initial defaults (and ideally save as a template) with CueMix?

With QuYou, they can assign their own sources (channels) to their dedicated mix busses, and there is an easy-to-use "wheel" graphic for volume control with a responsive design, so it works really well on different sized devices. I'd like to reuse the Android tablets I have for that role.
Old 31st July 2020
  #4047
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gravyface's Avatar
Am I crazy to get the 1248 and 828es?

The stars all line up as far as what I need:

24 inputs (6 mic preamps, 16 line inputs, 2 Hi-Z inputs)
More outputs than I'll never need unless I want to start summing/mixing with a mixer.
4 headphone outs

Questions:

Can the 2 x Hi-Z inputs be used in conjunction with the other inputs on the 1248?

I'm assuming that the CueMix will aggregate/present all I/O logically, once the two units are paired via AVB?
Old 1st August 2020 | Show parent
  #4048
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post

I'm assuming that the CueMix will aggregate/present all I/O logically, once the two units are paired via AVB?
They don't use CueMix - CueMix is for the previous generation of MOTU interfaces.

The settings of the AVB interfaces (including mixing) are controlled through a web browser, referred to as "Pro Audio Control"

When you have linked and configured two units together via AVB your DAW only recognises the unit that is connected via USB/TB. Channels on the "slave" unit are seen as additional inputs and outputs on the primary unit.
Old 1st August 2020 | Show parent
  #4049
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loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface View Post
This is what I'm concerned about losing when I sell my Qu-24 and replace it with some combination of AVB-enabled MOTU interfaces (probably 828es and 16A).

How easy is this for the artists to manage themselves, assuming I (the engineer) would setup the initial defaults (and ideally save as a template) with CueMix?

With QuYou, they can assign their own sources (channels) to their dedicated mix busses, and there is an easy-to-use "wheel" graphic for volume control with a responsive design, so it works really well on different sized devices. I'd like to reuse the Android tablets I have for that role.
I would be very circumspect about this transition, Knowing how easy the Qu is to configure and for "mere musicians" to operate, I would get the AVB systen well understood and tested before selling the Qu-24.

That said, do let us know how they compare!
Old 2nd August 2020 | Show parent
  #4050
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gravyface's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
I would be very circumspect about this transition, Knowing how easy the Qu is to configure and for "mere musicians" to operate, I would get the AVB systen well understood and tested before selling the Qu-24.

That said, do let us know how they compare!
MOTU tech support seemed to think it would be doable and straightforward, so fingers crossed.

I could keep the Qu-24 too, and just run outs from the MOTUs to the Qu stereo inputs, but I’d rather sell it.
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