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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 11th December 2018
  #3751
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Hey Brother G,

Someone explained this earlier in the thread. IIRC it was a matter of adding checkboxes in the appropriate routing window.

The take-away message was that outputs can have multiple destinations.

HTH
Old 11th December 2018
  #3752
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
If anyone has a simple explanation or a link to one, I'd appreciate it. This is maddening.
I can write more later if it doesn’t all come into focus with the following two observations:

Inputs can be connected to any number of outputs, but physical outputs can only be connected to exactly one input.

Most signals will go through the matrix twice: from a physical input to the mixer as an “output”, and then from one of the mixer buses listed as “inputs” to the desired physical output.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3753
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Hey Brother G,

Someone explained this earlier in the thread. IIRC it was a matter of adding checkboxes in the appropriate routing window.

The take-away message was that outputs can have multiple destinations.

HTH
Hey Monkey Man.

Yeah, my searching must suck.

I understand how to set the boxes, just nothing I've tried has worked. I tried to just set them out to S/PDIF but then it wouldn't let me use that as my main out. Right now "From Computer" 1 & 2 is being routed to S/PDIF out 1 & 2 and that's working as my main out.

Setting the analog ins to Main Mix out didn't work unless I made an Aux track in DP, but then that would also add the audio mix in.

I'm sure this is easy if you get it, but it's making my brain spasm.

Call me old-fashioned, but give me drop down menus and check boxes over this matrix jazz any day.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3754
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
Just got a new 1248 hooked up. Works great so far, but the routing matrix is a cluster**** from hell.

I need to monitor my outboard synths (analog in 1-8) out through S/PDIF 1-2, which is my main out to my monitor controller. I have all of the levels showing up properly in the mixer in Pro Control if I playback MIDI, but not sure how the hell to route them so I can hear them. Audio playback through S/PDIF is working just fine.

If anyone has a simple explanation or a link to one, I'd appreciate it. This is maddening.

thanks
See Motu s vídeo with lots of patience. After that try to configure and route to ur liking following the video.

It s a pain in the ass, but when u figure it out it s quite effective

I took 2 years to start monitoring through Motu s mixer and I regret a lot. It s very powerful with no discearnable latency

Hope it helps
Old 11th December 2018
  #3755
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

I haven't even seen the app in action yet as I still haven't bought my AVB system. I've told you all I know, I'm afraid, bud.

LG probably responded whilst you were typing; he provided more depth, so hopefully that helps...

EDIT:
... and Michael responded whilst I was typing.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3756
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
I can write more later if it doesn’t all come into focus with the following two observations:

Inputs can be connected to any number of outputs, but physical outputs can only be connected to exactly one input.

Most signals will go through the matrix twice: from a physical input to the mixer as an “output”, and then from one of the mixer buses listed as “inputs” to the desired physical output.
Makes sense, but the setup is still throwing me for a loop. If physical outputs can only have one input, then I assume everything needs to be routed somewhere (like a bus) and then that would be routed to S/PDIF output.

Not sure if I've been away too long or if this new setup is messing with my head. I don't need complex routing and much prefer the old Cuemix where I can just drag up my sliders, hear everything and get to work.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3757
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaeltn86 View Post
See Motu s vídeo with lots of patience. After that try to configure and route to ur liking following the video.

It s a pain in the ass, but when u figure it out it s quite effective

I took 2 years to start monitoring through Motu s mixer and I regret a lot. It s very powerful with no discearnable latency

Hope it helps
Thanks, I'll see if I can find it.

Yeah, that's all I need is the direct hardware monitoring of my synths. The lack of latency was great even with Cuemix.

Pro Control seems like it can be powerful. It's a bit alien compared to anything I've used before and I don't need anything fancy.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3758
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

I'll be in the same boat as you, Brother G.

Live monitoring of my hardware synths will be all I'll need.

I'd better pay attention to the answers here...
Old 11th December 2018
  #3759
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
I'll be in the same boat as you, Brother G.

Live monitoring of my hardware synths will be all I'll need.

I'd better pay attention to the answers here...
Would help

Same here: just need to monitor synths, mics and mix.

Eager to test the recording quality of the 1248 this week. The build quality is damn nice (no loose XLR tabs). Going out digital to the monitor controller is working great. No audible noise unless I crank it way past normal listening levels. Sounds like I bought new monitors
Old 11th December 2018
  #3760
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Lucky bugger.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3761
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
...Most signals will go through the matrix twice: from a physical input to the mixer as an “output”, and then from one of the mixer buses listed as “inputs” to the desired physical output.
Good information. I had a sense of this, but still haven't completely mastered the concept. This is why it has been confusing to me--inputs and outputs not being intuitive to me--multiple meanings.

Its probably a masterpiece of flexibility and compact presentation, but in no way intuitive--I have the mind of a programmer and I think to some extent that means me or someone needs to lay it out in a certain manner.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3762
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
Thanks, I'll see if I can find it.

Yeah, that's all I need is the direct hardware monitoring of my synths. The lack of latency was great even with Cuemix.

Pro Control seems like it can be powerful. It's a bit alien compared to anything I've used before and I don't need anything fancy.
start from the newest videos, because many changes happened since the beginning
YouTube
Old 11th December 2018
  #3763
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
LG probably responded whilst you were typing; he provided more depth, so hopefully that helps...
I hope so ... but it’s “she provided more depth.” I hope it proves helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
Makes sense, but the setup is still throwing me for a loop. If physical outputs can only have one input, then I assume everything needs to be routed somewhere (like a bus) and then that would be routed to S/PDIF output.
Yes. Most inputs will be routed to one of the “mix in” outputs, each representing a channel in the mixer. They should probably have used different terminology here, calling the X axis the sources and the Y axis the destinations to avoid the dual meanings of input and output. You’re connecting one logical cable from the physical input to the mixer input, and then then another one from the mixer output to the desired physical output.

Quote:
Not sure if I've been away too long or if this new setup is messing with my head. I don't need complex routing and much prefer the old Cuemix where I can just drag up my sliders, hear everything and get to work.
It’s not really all that complex once you get your head around the slightly peculiar terminology, and it’s wonderfully flexible. Being able to use any combination of outputs for the main mix, monitors (where soloing replaces the mix), or aux sends is incredibly flexible.

This article is one that covers a lot of the basics. To make things simpler in their latest gear the 828es offers presets with a number of typical setups preconfigured.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3764
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post

This article is one that covers a lot of the basics. To make things simpler in their latest gear the 828es offers presets with a number of typical setups preconfigured.

Thanks. Yeah, this is how I have it already.

All my analog inputs and my SPDIF input are going to the Main Mix and also the Mic 1-4, Analog inputs 1-8 and SPDIF 1-2 are going to the computer.

From Computer Inputs 1-2 are going to SPDIF out 1-2. Works fine for the audio and VIs.

What I can't work out is how to get both to go to SPDIF out 1-2. The only thing that's worked so far is to add an Aux track to my DP project for Mix 1-2 so I can monitor the synths, which is not ideal. Is there not a way to do this in routing or am I missing something??

There weren't any presets in the routing for the 1248 in Pro Control. Maybe they are elsewhere in the UI. I updated to latest firmware yesterday.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3765
Gear Maniac
you know, reading ladygaya (whom is very supportive), I think my routing might help.

I do as follows

I set my guitar / mic / bass / synth all of them to main mix. later I also set an aux for each outboard gear that I want to.

for example, I set my mic to aux 1. the AUX 1 outputs to different hardware reverbs. I also activate the reverbs ins so I can send them to main mix. the routing is very powerful because I can send the mic signal to many different effects boxes, which is awesome. I can also route my headphone amp to my boss SE50, which is also very thoughtful of the mixer. with just 1 aux!

in the main mix, u can click the small matrix window and choose ur output for monitoring.

it's the closest to TRUE non discearnable latency that I have ever experienced. the latency must be lower than 1.5 ms, because even at 2 ms, I can hear comb filtering and delays (I posted the round trip test in the topic for it). and I don't hear comb filter monitoring through Motu's avb.

after I figured out how to route in Motu's matrix, I have been a huge fan of HW reverb and multi effects and been collecting all I can. it's incredible to perform with effects without worrying about cpu and with no latency. it's really awesome.

my plan is to open a studio having a 1248 at the recording room, and 1 16A at the monitoring room through AVB. it'll save me thousands in cables / structure. but I am still worrying how bad the latency would be, as my compressors would be attached to the 16A.

so the signal route would be 1248 mic preamp -> AVB cable -> 16A -> compressor -> AVB cable -> 1248 -> headphones. if anyone can share their experience I would love to hear them, specially latency wise.

hope this is helpful
Old 11th December 2018
  #3766
Lives for gear
 
Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
What I can't work out is how to get both to go to SPDIF out 1-2.
Aha! I’d recommend routing From Computer 1-2 into Mix In channels alongside your other inputs, then routing Mix Main (or Mix Monitor) to SPDIF 1-2 outputs. That way your mixer will just blend everything coming from your computer with all live signals, and the full mixer interface can be used to adjust levels or mute channels as needed.

Quote:
There weren't any presets in the routing for the 1248 in Pro Control. Maybe they are elsewhere in the UI. I updated to latest firmware yesterday.
I don’t believe Presets were ever added to the 1248. Like Talkback, they’re simply considered a newer feature of more recent interfaces. Not a big deal once you’re up and running since they’re just a fast way to configure the matrix in the first place.
Old 11th December 2018
  #3767
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
Thanks. Yeah, this is how I have it already.

All my analog inputs and my SPDIF input are going to the Main Mix and also the Mic 1-4, Analog inputs 1-8 and SPDIF 1-2 are going to the computer.

From Computer Inputs 1-2 are going to SPDIF out 1-2. Works fine for the audio and VIs.

What I can't work out is how to get both to go to SPDIF out 1-2. The only thing that's worked so far is to add an Aux track to my DP project for Mix 1-2 so I can monitor the synths, which is not ideal. Is there not a way to do this in routing or am I missing something??

There weren't any presets in the routing for the 1248 in Pro Control. Maybe they are elsewhere in the UI. I updated to latest firmware yesterday.
I just answered above. just click in the small matrix in the main mix, it will appear a box where u can select the outs. choose spdif. that's it! u can also route to more outs with just one "main mix". pretty cool
Old 11th December 2018
  #3768
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Aha! I’d recommend routing From Computer 1-2 into Mix In channels alongside your other inputs, then routing Mix Main (or Mix Monitor) to SPDIF 1-2 outputs. That way your mixer will just blend everything coming from your computer with all live signals, and the full mixer interface can be used to adjust levels or mute channels as needed.



I don’t believe Presets were ever added to the 1248. Like Talkback, they’re simply considered a newer feature of more recent interfaces. Not a big deal once you’re up and running since they’re just a fast way to configure the matrix in the first place.
Ah... that sounds like it would work.

I'll give it a shot. Thanks!
Old 11th December 2018
  #3769
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Aha! I’d recommend routing From Computer 1-2 into Mix In channels alongside your other inputs, then routing Mix Main (or Mix Monitor) to SPDIF 1-2 outputs. That way your mixer will just blend everything coming from your computer with all live signals, and the full mixer interface can be used to adjust levels or mute channels as needed.
Success!

Lady Gaia, Routing Wizard.

I owe you a beer!

Now on to solving my other problems.
Old 12th December 2018
  #3770
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
Success!
Glad to hear that worked for you.

Quote:
I owe you a beer!
I’ll hold you to it if we’re ever anywhere near one another. As it is, I’m hiding on an island even further away than usual (and tragically, the only only gear I have with me at the moment is an iPad and a Seaboard Block.)

May your remaining configuration come easily! I’ll sip some wine against a Maui sunset this evening in support of your efforts.
Old 12th December 2018
  #3771
Gear Maniac
 
blueNan's Avatar
Does anyone know what latency should i expect if I directly patch an external input to an external output ? I have a Motu 112D (which is full digital) that i use with external converters (Apogee, Genex) connected via AES/EBU and ADAT.
Old 12th December 2018
  #3772
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
May your remaining configuration come easily! I’ll sip some wine against a Maui sunset this evening in support of your efforts.
Good juju prevails. Thanks to a firmware update, all is working splendidly.

Hit me up if you're ever in NY.
Old 12th December 2018
  #3773
Gear Addict
Routing Matrix is just a software patch bay

Quote:
Originally Posted by gradivus View Post
Success!

Lady Gaia, Routing Wizard.

I owe you a beer!

Now on to solving my other problems.
Hi
The Routing Matrix is designed to work exactly how you would work with a hardware patchbay.

Example
If I have a single source signal coming from a Mic/Mic Pre to the patchbay I can route that signal to multiple independent speakers. However if I have several sources (multiple mic sources) I need a mixer to mix all the input signals together.

The routing matrix is easier to use than a patchbay because you have no risk of spaghetti cables. You can easily see which signal is routed where or if there is actually any signal. It is not at all complicated. It might require taking time to learn it but not because it is complicated but to some it is a new way of thinking and approach to routing.

For interfaces with so many I/O options having drop down menus to handle routing would be a major nightmare.

I first used such a routing matrix with the original Focusrite Rednet interfaces, because of the high channel count of Dante, Focusrite implemented the matrix routing.
Now I have the MOTU 1248 and an Antelope Audio Zen Tour which also uses the matrix routing.

Regards,
Enoch

Last edited by KimGitz; 13th December 2018 at 10:23 AM..
Old 12th December 2018
  #3774
Gear Maniac
 
blueNan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimGitz View Post
Hi
The Routing Matrix is designed to work exactly how you would work with a hardware patchbay.
Enoch, do you know what is the latency when you patch a physical in to a physical out in the patchbay...? i mean, without going into the DAW / computer? Sorry if this is a silly question.
Old 12th December 2018
  #3775
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
I hope so ... but it’s “she provided more depth.”
Sorry, LG!
Old 12th December 2018
  #3776
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueNan View Post
Enoch, do you know what is the latency when you patch a physical in to a physical out in the patchbay...? i mean, without going into the DAW / computer? Sorry if this is a silly question.
You'd have to ask MOTU, but I bet it is in the range of 2-3ms.

Take a look at this, Section 5.4 and after:

Audio quality in networked systems
Old 12th December 2018
  #3777
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Yeah, with most interfaces we're looking at the A/D and D/A processing times plus a tiny bit on top, Sir Markus, as your esteemed self would know.

These times seem to have dropped marginally over the years, from 1.3->1.5ms to roughly 1ms or less these days, so it'd be roughly 1ms x 2 plus a little bit, so between 2 and 3 would be a great guess IMHO.
Old 12th December 2018
  #3778
Gear Maniac
 
blueNan's Avatar
thank you guys,

I was wondering if it was possible to have zero (or close to Zero) latency with the patchbay - as the signal does not pass through the mixer or the computer, but if the conversion takes 1ms then ordered is a minimum of 2 to ? depending on the converters. Which is good enough for my application, i believe.

About the patchbay of AVBs:

It can look confusing at the beginning because it defaults presenting all the options, but it is incredibly powerful. To reduce confusion you can first stablish what ins and outs do you want it to show with the options on the left, leaving hidden what you don't use or need, reducing the number of to/from computer channels, etc.

You have to imagine that you have 3 separate devices with all their inputs and outputs connected to one giant patchbay: the motu, the computer and the mixer. It makes it easier if you are used to physical patchbays - it works exactly like them, with the added bonus of being able to send any input to how many outputs you deem convenient.

The Motu ethernet connectivity options (i think they are named "streams" in the patchbay or something like that) add also to the confusion, as those are not physical but add a big bunch of inputs/outputs. Just deactivate the option you don't need in your configuration for clarity.

Alongside determining the ins and outs it shows, you can set the label of any input and output, so with a bit of organization it is a very powerful, fast and easy to use patching system.
Old 12th December 2018
  #3779
Gear Maniac
 
blueNan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by HCMarkus View Post

Take a look at this, Section 5.4 and after:

Audio quality in networked systems

Thanks HCMarkus, that was an amazing and comprehensive read.
I will be checking the rest of the chapters for sure.
Old 12th December 2018
  #3780
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueNan View Post
Does anyone know what latency should i expect if I directly patch an external input to an external output ? I have a Motu 112D (which is full digital) that i use with external converters (Apogee, Genex) connected via AES/EBU and ADAT.

I did the test here:
Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base

just do the test urself too and double check the numbers. I would be curious. just subtract. for me, it's negligible

I can record and monitor without a problem / comb filter through

Mic -> motu 1248 ->motu mixer out -> compressor -> motu 1248 -> main mix monitor. u just need to turn off the send of mic to the main.

please share ur experience. if anyone has experience using Motu's avb as a patchbay while tracking live, I would love to hear. thanks
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