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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 15th August 2014
  #331
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
So instead of moving the drive to the TB MBP I can hope for an Ethernet option soon! (I installed the second drive when the DVD burned out, and long after that discovered my OTHER MBP has TB, which I never needed). It will be soon, yes?:-)
I didn't mean to give the impression that it's just around the corner. There's a lot of development work ahead of us. It's still too early to say, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
PS - I was really disappointed to realize that the 8M does not have digital outs! I was assuming that all three of the units has SPDIF, but not true, only one does. If I'd read more carefully I could have seen that, but the way you market them all three together obscured that little fact. I need the mic pres more than I need the SPDIF out, but still feel a bit ripped off... :-(
Sorry about that—definitely not our intention! The 8M does have digital outs in the form of 2 banks of ADAT, just not S/PDIF.
Old 15th August 2014
  #332
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Cornvalley's Avatar
I got my 1248 yesterday and am loving the sound of these converters. DI, mic pres and lines are clean, clear and balanced. I have no reservations in using these in place of Apogee 16X. I'll still use the Spider and Hedd but really, this AD conversion is stellar.
The Matrix is so elegant, thought I would miss Cuemix Ha!

Typing is not one of my strong points so I will just end this review.
To those wondering about the ADC, you will not be disappointed in the least.

Off to create another Aux mix!
Old 15th August 2014
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by askkaereby View Post
By MOTU being faster, I assume you mean 32 samples A/D/A = 0.73ms @ 44.1k (more than 1 ms faster than HDN A/D/A) ?
If PT is using low latency monitoring it might be more reasonable to exclude the DAW and computer buffer from the MOTU solution, as the built in mixer would be the low latency solution, which adds upto 6 samples, so 38 samples in total = 0.86mS at 44.1kHz

Are these numbers (above) correct (I hope), quoted from this thread...?
Your numbers look close to me - though the extra 6 samples? Regardless - 0.86ms at 44.1 is a GREAT number.
The strict A/D D/A time quoted on the 1248 page is 20 samples. This is among the lowest numbers possible today. AVID at 44.1 is
~84 samples and is run in a different mode at 96kHz and is ~45 samples. It is likely one is 2X of the other - but these values are close and line up to measured data.

Just like most of the modern interfaces the built in monitor solution that bypasses the DAW is very low latency in the new MOTU box and has most of what any tracking situation needs (EQ, Comp, Reverb). LowLatency Monitor in AVID land is no plugins or FX - period.

For my own preference I like working in a single mixer and any inserted FX I have on tracking I want to hear in P/B. So none of these low latency solutions work for me. This is why I focus on looping through the DAW as my "benchmark".
Old 15th August 2014
  #334
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loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
I didn't mean to give the impression that it's just around the corner. There's a lot of development work ahead of us. It's still too early to say, unfortunately.



Sorry about that—definitely not our intention! The 8M does have digital outs in the form of 2 banks of ADAT, just not S/PDIF.
No big on either front. I don't use SPIDF out much anyway, and my main use is for remote recordings, so not a big deal. Sometimes I like to record a 44.1 reference mix for clients, while tracking at 48 or 96, and I can do that from an analog out.
L
Old 15th August 2014
  #335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lolo22 View Post
Approx how long before windows drivers will be ready?
Quote:
Originally Posted by milwel traamen View Post
Can you confirm after your last post all the development is for the apple platform. Or atleast the priority goes to the apple platform. I dont want to get stuck with beta drivers and a device which is isnt workink properly, because im on win os.

Is there any time indication on when these drivers are ready for windows.
Also would like to know the other specs. Ethernet usb thunderbolt software etc. What can I expect from this product as a windows user. What will be supported? What isnt? Thanks in advance.
We will deliver solid Windows drivers and are working hard to make sure we get them right. We're still coding so I don't feel comfortable making a prediction without being confident in its accuracy. That said, almost all current development efforts are cross-platform: everything in the web app control software, for instance.
Old 15th August 2014
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldTools View Post
I simply plugged a mic into an interface input; routed that input to a record enabled track; routed the output of that track to an interface output; plugged that output into another interface input; routed that input to another record enabled track; then I hit record and tapped on the mic. Then I measured the distance between the two resulting waveforms. Delay compensation was off of course. So this is full round trip measurement through the DAW, which is why the buffer comes into play.
Thanks for this! I just tested this and it agree with scope and function generator measurement using ProTools. So simple but works perfect. Again - 1000 thanks!
Old 15th August 2014
  #337
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loujudson's Avatar
Networked audio will be a topic at the upcoming AES show:
Audio Engineering Society | Tech News
Old 16th August 2014
  #338
Gear Head
Can you compare the new mixer vs cue mix?
And maybe total mix fx from rme?
I've just sell my UCX and i'm trying to decide between the 1248 and the UFX.
Thunderbolt is a big plus for me since I'm on a macbook pro retina and usb ports are pretty rare (only 2.. ilok 2, cubase eliscencer...)
Old 16th August 2014
  #339
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emrr's Avatar
I was able to do some comparisons in Spectrafoo Complete, looking at 2408mkIII and 16A, measuring a simple output to input loop against the internal signal generator.

16A loop noise is 10-12 dB lower than 2408mkIII loop noise as far as averages go, and the 16A PSU is close to invisible compared to the 2408mkIII which has easily visible power harmonic spikes at much higher than average level. This seems to confirm what my ears experienced in tracking sessions so far, a deeper bottom with clearer very low level detail.

16A noise profile remains constant across the comparable frequency range for all sampling rates, meaning that the lower rates appear to just chop cleanly along the same line as the higher rates.

2408mkII noise profile shows a noise shaping boost near upper cutoff, so the boost rises earlier at lower rates.

16A has more linear bass, -0.01 dB slightly under 8Hz relative to 1K, 2408mkIII is more like -0.2 down at the same spot.

The upper response is microscopically different between the two units, the pretty pictures look obviously different when the measurement scale is very very tiny. You could call it significant if you were ignoring the scale and frequency.

Phase response is possibly more significant visually, who knows what the ear says about it. The 16A is more linear at the very bottom, as one would assume based on the freq response. The upper phase response deviation is mostly comparable, but opposite in direction. So not comparable? This is really the biggest difference after noise. Deviation from zero is roughly comparable, but the 2408mkIII swings positive while the 16A swings negative. The 2408mkIII has a smooth phase curve, while the 16A has a wavy phase curve, which I would attribute to differences in the low pass filter schemes employed.

If I were picking the best rates based on phase with the 16A, I'd choose 88.2 or 192. 96 and 176.4 aren't as phase linear, but still clearly beat the snot out of 44.1 and 48.

The 2408mkIII appears more phase linear closer to cutoff at 88.2 and 96, but I think noise performance trumps this comparison. 2408mkIII phase looks equally snotty at 44.1 and 48K.
Old 16th August 2014
  #340
nms
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@Doug - You should run the RightMark Audio Analyzer test file through the unit. If you do that I can generate the analysis on this end and post how it measures up to the Lynx Hilo, which is the cleanest conversion I've ever tested. If you do it for your 2408 as well I can tell you if the unit's broken and may need a voltage regulator or something else replaced, as I have files for properly functioning units here.

Here's the test file. Just route a loopback at unity gains using 88.2khz SR and 24bit depth.

Zippyshare.com - RMAA-88khz.zip
Old 16th August 2014
  #341
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beau_mckee's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
@Doug - You should run the RightMark Audio Analyzer test file through the unit. If you do that I can generate the analysis on this end and post how it measures up to the Lynx Hilo, which is the cleanest conversion I've ever tested. If you do it for your 2408 as well I can tell you if the unit's broken and may need a voltage regulator or something else replaced, as I have files for properly functioning units here.

Here's the test file. Just route a loopback at unity gains using 88.2khz SR and 24bit depth.

Zippyshare.com - RMAA-88khz.zip
This needs to happen!
Old 16th August 2014
  #342
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emrr's Avatar
How did I know doing several hours of measurement capture would result in a request for more measurement capture? : )
I have the pretty pictures and everything.
If I get a chance....
Old 17th August 2014
  #343
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emrr's Avatar
Getting some test files uploaded.

With the adjustable inputs and outputs, we have a question around 'unity'.

16A inputs are referred to as digitally controlled analog trim.
16A outputs are referred to vaguely as probable digital trim before DA.
16A outputs are roughly 4 dB hotter than 2408mkIII when set to 0.
Not sure about the inputs yet.
Spectrafoo balanced loop test, 16A output has to be set 0 and input has to be set +2 to get +0.26dBr difference WHEN COMPARING INTERNAL SIGNAL GENERATOR TO RETURNING LINE.
As a result FS output from internal signal generator will clip input at +2 input setting, not at +1.
I still need to measure ext sig gen AD DA with all set at 0, see what results.

I have for now set the outputs at -4 so I see something comparable to what I got with the PCI interfaces.
With -4 output, you'd need +5 input to get close to unity loop-through without clipping a FS source.

From Audio/MIDI, the 16A is described as 32 bit floating, whatever that's worth. I haven't looked at an actual 32 bit source in Spectrafoo to examine the bitstream yet.

Last edited by emrr; 18th August 2014 at 04:58 PM.. Reason: more
Old 18th August 2014
  #344
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emrr's Avatar
In DP8, the Input Monitoring Mode option for 'direct hardware playthrough' is not available with the 16A. I'm curious why this can't be implemented, or if it might be coming in an update.
Old 18th August 2014
  #345
Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
In DP8, the Input Monitoring Mode option for 'direct hardware playthrough' is not available with the 16A. I'm curious why this can't be implemented, or if it might be coming in an update.
DP doesn't support the direct hardware playthrough feature with the 1248, 16A or 8M right now. We're looking into it for a future update, though.
Old 18th August 2014
  #347
We just put up an in-depth walkthrough of the routing in the new boxes:
MOTU.com - AVB Routing Tab
Old 18th August 2014
  #348
Here for the gear
 

Is there a review of the 1248 anywhere? I can't seem to find one. Just a good old complete review. I am super ready to buy wither a 1248 or UA Apollo Quad but want to hear what folks think of the 1248 first. If anyone knows of any reviews please post a link. I have been told the UA converters are slightly better but I question how anyone could know that without hands on experience. Someone also said that there is nothing new about the 1248 converters over the 828. Then I am told they are the same as the ones in the Apogee Symphony! Oy! Head spinning!! Anyway, thanks! This is a great site!!
Old 18th August 2014
  #349
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph58strat View Post
Is there a review of the 1248 anywhere? I can't seem to find one. Just a good old complete review. I am super ready to buy wither a 1248 or UA Apollo Quad but want to hear what folks think of the 1248 first. If anyone knows of any reviews please post a link. I have been told the UA converters are slightly better but I question how anyone could know that without hands on experience. Someone also said that there is nothing new about the 1248 converters over the 828. Then I am told they are the same as the ones in the Apogee Symphony! Oy! Head spinning!! Anyway, thanks! This is a great site!!

It's probably too early on for there to be any real reviews out there, the unit just started shipping. You'll mostly get anecdotal reviews from some users however, they are often hard to trust. Different rooms, difference speakers, different material, confirmation bias.... all these things can lead to a positive review on a crappy product or a negative review on a great one. Best to wait for the experts if thats whats holding you back for now.

Also from what I can see on paper, these new units outperform the old 828. They use the same family of converters as the apogee however not the same ones. Keep in mind, the converter chip is arguably one of the smallest parts of what makes an interface good. two units could use the same exact chip and sound nothing alike.
Old 19th August 2014
  #350
Here for the gear
 

Thanks TheSiege for taking the time to write a great response. Very helpful! I will try and hold out to see what the word is. Upgrading from my trusty 2408mkii so either unit will be an improvement! I love the 2408 and have had lots of success with it so I am a MOTU fan but am intrigued by the UA stuff. Anyway, thanks again!
Old 19th August 2014
  #351
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emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
We just put up an in-depth walkthrough of the routing in the new boxes:
MOTU.com - AVB Routing Tab
Very helpful. I noticed one addition.

Quote:
When your AVB interface is set as the device for your system's sound output, audio playing back from an application like iTunes, or media streaming from your web browser, will be sent to your unit through the From Computer 1-2 audio stream. As you play audio, you will see the From Computer 1-2 indicator lights illuminate. Make a connection to your unit's physical outputs, (Phones 1-2, or Analog 1-2) to send audio to your headphones or speakers.
As discussed, your computer's playback can be fed to your unit's on board mixer, or sent to an AVB audio stream as well.
For Mac, from Audio/MIDI, choose configure speakers to choose iTunes (or Quicktime, etc) stream destination. That will move it to any of the MOTU 'from computer' inputs for further routing. As with most things Audio/MIDI, this isn't terribly clear.



Back to test results:

600 ohm output signal gen sending +24dBu reads 23.7dBm at outputs with multimeter, -0.25 dBFS incoming to 16A set input trim 0.
16A output set 0 (max), output reads +21.7dBm with multimeter.

Impossible to get same analog output level as analog input level without DSP gain. Restated, the input has greater headroom than the output. This agrees somewhat with the manual specs, I'm wondering if there's a typo there since I am seeing higher output levels than the listed max.

16A noise numbers as seen on the plots in the previous post:
60Hz (AC line) -147dBFS
125Hz -154dBFS
250Hz -151dBFS
715Hz spike about -140dBFS (certainly looks higher on the plot, but zoom in confirms)
1kHz -147dBFS (note the manual states in or out THD+N of -110 dB, -1dBFS, unweighted, 1kHz)
4kHz -143dBFS
16kHz -137dBFS

Spectrafoo code stream appears to be 24 bit, with Audio/MIDI describing 32bit float and DP8 set for 32bit float recording.
Old 19th August 2014
  #352
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by ph58strat View Post
Is there a review of the 1248 anywhere? I can't seem to find one. Just a good old complete review. I am super ready to buy wither a 1248 or UA Apollo Quad but want to hear what folks think of the 1248 first. If anyone knows of any reviews please post a link. I have been told the UA converters are slightly better but I question how anyone could know that without hands on experience. Someone also said that there is nothing new about the 1248 converters over the 828. Then I am told they are the same as the ones in the Apogee Symphony! Oy! Head spinning!! Anyway, thanks! This is a great site!!
I had both the MOTU 8M and an Apollo to try out. They both sound just fine and have the same mic pre's (PGA 2500's). The MOTU has similar DAC chips as the Apogee Quartet. The software interface of the 8M was a bummer for me, while the Apollo was a joy. Plus the UA plugins were really really good - best I've ever heard. Even though it was more money, I kept the Apollo.

I'm sure you'll be able to get great results with either one you buy, I just have a much better experience using the Apollo.
Old 19th August 2014
  #353
Gear Nut
 

Anyone else noticed 1248 preamps gain are 63dB but 8M preamps are 53dB (both site and manual)? Anyone know why the difference?
Old 19th August 2014
  #354
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emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by softska View Post
Anyone else noticed 1248 preamps gain are 63dB but 8M preamps are 53dB (both site and manual)? Anyone know why the difference?
It's a confirmed typo, see earlier in the thread.
Old 19th August 2014
  #355
Gear Head
 

Any chance to get AES/EBU or SPDIF out in a near future for the 16A? This will allow to use digital monitors without going through another set of conversion.
Old 19th August 2014
  #356
Gear Maniac
 

Please please please can there be support for Windows 7?

Considering how long it can take to get a DAW up and running and stable with all the software and everything going, I would suspect that there will still be some guys on Windows 7. Myself being one of them and a long time MOTU customer. Basically I don't upgrade until there is a big enough leap in hardware to justify a full re-build.

Hell Komplete 9 alone almost takes a full day.

These are very exciting! I am adding another room to the studio and I am thinking of using the networking to run CAT6 instead of a snake. Then have the unit in the that tracking room with pres. The distance is far enough that it might be better than a 50 ft snake.
Old 19th August 2014
  #357
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emrr's Avatar
I got a pop-up in the control app about an update to the 16A, which requested I connect an ethernet cable to receive the update. I was connected with TB at the time, very curious why ethernet would be a requirement here. I don't see that spelled out anywhere in the wording of the support literature.
Old 19th August 2014
  #358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Rosebrook View Post
MOTU has made the fix... 53 vs 63....

Both pages say 53db now.
Hi,

I still see +63 dB for 1248, and +53 dB for 8M.

MOTU.com - Tech Specs

MOTU.com - Tech Specs

Would you tell us where the 'Both pages' are?
Old 19th August 2014
  #359
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Jim Rosebrook's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masaaki View Post
Hi,

I still see +63 dB for 1248, and +53 dB for 8M.

MOTU.com - Tech Specs

MOTU.com - Tech Specs

Would you tell us where the 'Both pages' are?
This page on the 8M used to say 63:

MOTU.com - Tech Specs
Old 19th August 2014
  #360
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loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aortizjr View Post
Please please please can there be support for Windows 7?
This won't help you, but you should know that I had to upgrade my MacBookPro so that I could use the new AVB software... and I have been firmly stuck in the past with Mac OS 10.6.8 until now... Now I am using 10.9, without much problem. I don't use Windows or even knwo what version they are up to.
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