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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 2nd July 2018
  #3541
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by balijon View Post
Yes, the Sonnet GE1000LAB-E is plug and play in a MP and works like a charm (natively supported in OSX). We have 8 MacPro's running with it, some have a two card's (we are running [email protected] and are limited to 64-channels in 1Gb).

Sorry I did not follow up on your question regarding CPU-load. It changes (improved) with the OSX-releases, up to a point that you don't have to bother about it. AVB-support has improved a lot in OSX over time.
Yes! The man appears when mentioned!

Thank you for the follow-up and info, balijon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Just out of curiosity, I rebooted into High Sierra to repeat the experiment. I was able to get system audio routed through the interface (again playing a YouTube video) but it did take a little more manual configuration.
Thank you, LG. "A little more manual configuration"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Things took a turn for the worse when I tried launching Logic Pro. Suddenly audio was continually breaking up in static, so perhaps...

It looks like it. MotU's guidance that you can't route system audio may simply mean that if you do you won't like the results. My experiments with Mojave show a glimmer of hope for the future, though, and certainly the configuration was easier.
Maybe that's the thing - that it won't play nice with pro-audio DAW's.

I'll be parking in S or HS for a long time 'cause I don't want to lose certain 32-bit apps, so that glimmer of hope may not apply to me, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Absolutely. Just like anything else in the routing matrix, I directed it into the mix and was able to work with it just like any other audio stream.
So it shows up as a source in the matrix even when configured as ethernet-only? That's something I really wanted to know, mate; thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
I sincerely doubt it. Thunderbolt is just an externalized form of the PCI/e bus that Ethernet would be connected to in any case. Most software shouldn't know or care about the distinction of whether it's a built-in interface or externally connected.
Ahh... thanks mate. Again, thank you so much for your time, LG.
Old 2nd July 2018
  #3542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Thank you, LG. "A little more manual configuration"?
Mojave seemed to do a better job both of defaulting to the first pair of audio streams, and of giving everything a more reasonable name. The 828es showed up as 828ES:828ES (or something similar) as an audio device under Mojave, but something generic like Thunderbolt Ethernet under High Sierra.

Quote:
I'll be parking in S or HS for a long time 'cause I don't want to lose certain 32-bit apps, so that glimmer of hope may not apply to me, unfortunately.
Mojave still supports 32-bit apps, it's just the last major release of macOS that will do so. It warns the first time you run a 32-bit app, but then so have recent updates to High Sierra.

Quote:
So it shows up as a source in the matrix even when configured as ethernet-only?
Indeed it does. Any AVB streams you've defined show up as distinct input/output groups with eight channels each. Like anything else, these input can be routed into the mixer, and these outputs can be destinations for the main, monitor, subgroups, or directly from any input.
Old 2nd July 2018
  #3543
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Thank you so much, LG!
Old 2nd July 2018
  #3544
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wilkinsi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
It’s not true of the 828es so I don’t see why it would be true of the newer model. I update my 828es via Ethernet all the time, frequently without even being in the same room. It’s only Thunderbolt that can’t be used for firmware updates.
I first updated the audio driver for Mac. Then I tried to update all 3 of my devices via Ethernet simultaneously. The 8D and 112D updated, but the 828ES did not. I then tried to update the 828ES, which quickly flickered from "updating" to "update now". So, it didn't work for me. I then connected it via USB and tried again. And only then did it work.
Old 4th July 2018
  #3545
Looking at a MOTU 24Ao- primarily for breakout back to my Midas Venice F32 for OTB summing. Also looking at an Orion 32. What I am wondering is, considering this is just for OTB mixing, is the difference in sound and conversion quality between the two for this application worth the extra $2k+?

Would be nice to have the Orion 32 of course, gives me the full 32 outs back to the board, instead of 24, but 24 will suit my needs fine I think (capturing master outs on the board with separate system). IF the sound is SO much better with the Orion 32, I might still do it, but from what I am reading in this thread and the recordings posted, seems like I might be fine with the 24 Ao, and save a wad of cash. My recordings are mostly rock and fusion stuff, all real drums, bigger kit, about 14 inputs. Real happy with the Venice F32 to computer chain for tracking at 44.1/48 Khz.

Now why would I bother when I got all 32 back to the board already via the Midas FW interface? Because I wanna be able to push those inputs more is really why. More analog mojo on mix, basically. Sort of an experiment, but so happy with the analog mojo from this board already, can't help myself. If it seems excessive, then i might not. So go ahead, talk me out of it. I am always open to saving some $1.5k, with the DB25 cables and all I will need for the upgrade.
Old 4th July 2018
  #3546
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studioman22 View Post
So go ahead, talk me out of it.
This is GS, we might try to talk you into it. :P

I'm in a similar boat atm. Trying to find a more affordable route, but in my case it's for more inputs, not outputs.
Old 5th July 2018
  #3547
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

I'd go with the 24Ao in your situation. The extra bucks for the Orion cannot be justified IMHO.

If you're super-keen on the 32-output thing to the desk, you could always go 2 16A units. You'll get a few dB better noise performance and the ability to use the 32 inputs any way you like too. Could open up many possibilities...
Old 5th July 2018
  #3548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
I'd go with the 24Ao in your situation. The extra bucks for the Orion cannot be justified IMHO.

If you're super-keen on the 32-output thing to the desk, you could always go 2 16A units. You'll get a few dB better noise performance and the ability to use the 32 inputs any way you like too. Could open up many possibilities...
Yeah I hear ya, and also could just go two 24Ao's as well. With some specials on db25 snakes at around 50 bucks each, I am liking the idea of the reduced cable clutter as well. I think the quality of their latest AVB series is now good enough. I do have a Mackie 1640i that could handle outputs 33-48. Add to this a BURL B2- giving me a high res master mix- and yessa, we in bidness. That would be 48 stems back to two hybrid mixers (and the Midas of course has routable extra lines in over and above the channel inputs, allowing me to submix off the 1640i). That would be way more than I'd ever need! Hmmm...
Old 5th July 2018
  #3549
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

That'd be awesome, man. Seriously.

Nothing shabby about that Mackie either. I'll be using my trusty ol' 1620 (without the digital I/O card) for monitoring (tracking) as well as my general hub; everything will be going through it, and then on to the... ahem... Opals.
Old 6th July 2018
  #3550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
That'd be awesome, man. Seriously.

Nothing shabby about that Mackie either. I'll be using my trusty ol' 1620 (without the digital I/O card) for monitoring (tracking) as well as my general hub; everything will be going through it, and then on to the... ahem... Opals.
That little Mackie 1640i is a different animal than the other crappy Mackie stuff. Too bad more people haven't had a chance to try it.

Heard some more recordings done through the 16A and 24Ao, and man, tell ya what, pretty darn impressed with that bandwidth imprint, and the better smoothness in the top end. I can't possibly see how the Orion 32 could be 1-2k dollars better than that. I'm about sold on the 24Ao, and maybe two of em at that. Probably will get one first and see. But all indicators are pretty good here. I will also vouch for the rock solid operation I had on the three 1224 setup I ran for long years. Worked great. Unless someone offers up a compelling reason not to, I'm about 99% sold on a 24Ao.
Old 6th July 2018
  #3551
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Yup. Nobody's gonna hear a 1-2k improvement IMHO, if any at all.

Yeah, I bought the Mackie new 15 years ago, and haven't seen a compelling reason to "upgrade" to a dedicated monitor rack, wedge or whatever since then. I won't be able to do monitor switching with it, but that's fine 'cause I'm only running the one pair. Hopefully Audified MixChecker will help in that regard.
Old 8th July 2018
  #3552
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I picked up a 1248 a few months ago after reading all the converter info, null tests, and about 116 pages on here ( at the time )... Sounds wonderful... running a mix of Focusrite Blue, Neve 1073, Neve 88RLB's, etc... Connected via Thunderbolt on a Mac... sounds absolutely beautiful... the extra couple thousand $ can buy more pre's and mics... ;-) O=-)

Picked up a 16A for additional inputs, and connected via AVB.

THEN they came out with the 828es last year... the Speaker Controller, Built-in talkback, MIDI, SMPTE... *HAD* to get one of those too, and was able to pick one up last month ( yes, I'm a gear *****... or "slut"... LOL)... after listening side by side against the 1248, the 1248 definitely sounds slightly better ( there's a reason for the extra $500 )... more depth, detail, and fuller in the mids.... some might not hear it, but it's there... but the 828es is still definitely a sweet box...

Was looking to purchase a MOTU AVB Switch, but everyone seems to be out of stock from some reason, so found an alternative... the Presonus SW5E... just arrived today, but seems to be running smoothly... has one less Ethernet port than the MOTU Switch, but does have etherCON connectors and an internal Power supply instead of the dreaded wall wart... same price as the MOTU Switch... will have to see how the Presonus works of the next few weeks.

I've been a MOTU fan and user since the earliest versions of Performer, and STILL have the DP 1.0 ... everything always runs solid, and well though out... just updated to the newest firmware... the new touch interface is nice... but have to spend a little more time with the Discovery app to see where the AVB Output dropdowns went... LOL... Nice work MOTU !

Last edited by flyingfadr; 8th July 2018 at 07:28 PM..
Old 17th July 2018
  #3553
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by HCMarkus View Post
Positive: The way to avoid the DAW crash, at least for me (Mac, 10.12.6 and Digital Performer), is to open the other apps when you start up for the day and leave them open, THEN start up the DAW. I have reported this bug to MOTU and they have acknowledged.
Unfortunately this is not working for me, on OSX 10.11.6 and Ableton 10. Really such a big dent in an otherwise great device... I use spotify all the time when mixing, to compare to other songs and with the Motu, I now have to disable abletons audio engine before playing sound in spotify and then re-enable it when switching back to my mix in ableton. And if I forget to do that, I get the never ending spinning beachball...

Come on Motu...
Old 18th July 2018
  #3554
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I'm sorry if this has been answered, but I can't find the answer...
How does the Stage-B16 compare to the 1248? Are they the same Pres? same converters?
If not how do they compare with each other? I have a 1248 and would like to consider adding a Stage-B16.
Old 20th July 2018
  #3555
Lives for gear
So - for the people having crashing problems when switching between their DAW and other audio-enabled apps: is this only while the computer is connected via AVB ethernet, or does it also happen with a USB / TB connection?

Thanks
Old 21st July 2018
  #3556
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula View Post
So - for the people having crashing problems when switching between their DAW and other audio-enabled apps: is this only while the computer is connected via AVB ethernet, or does it also happen with a USB / TB connection?

Thanks
I only use tb and it happens to me all the time. Never tried avb ethernet and rarely usb but I think at least with usb there the same problem. Something’s wrong with the motu driver.
Old 21st July 2018
  #3557
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirky View Post
I only use tb and it happens to me all the time. Never tried avb ethernet and rarely usb but I think at least with usb there the same problem. Something’s wrong with the motu driver.
What operating system?
Old 21st July 2018
  #3558
Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula View Post
So - for the people having crashing problems when switching between their DAW and other audio-enabled apps: is this only while the computer is connected via AVB ethernet, or does it also happen with a USB / TB connection?

Thanks
828es via USB here, Mac OS Sierra 12.6. Interface is also connected directly to my Mac Pro via Ethernet, but this connection is for control and is not passing audio.
Old 21st July 2018
  #3559
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by lady gaia View Post
what operating system?
osx 10.11
Old 24th July 2018
  #3560
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirky View Post
osx 10.11
Are you on hardware that won’t run 10.12 Sierra, or is there another reason not to update? Apple does continually address limitations that may prevent a manufacturer like MotU from fixing problems without moving to a newer OS. They continue to support older operating systems but there’s only so much they can do to work around fundamental limits or flaws.

I can completely understand not wanting to be on the bleeding edge with a new OS, but barring known incompatible hardware or software Sierra is incredibly mature, and even High Sierra has been through enough iterations that it should be a reasonable choice for most.

I’d say “I wouldn’t jump on Mojave the moment it ships” but in practice it’s already what I use every day. I’m just more patient with an willing to report quirks than I would expect from most.
Old 27th July 2018
  #3561
Gear Nut
 
wilkinsi's Avatar
When using the web browser to access MOTU Discovery on a Mac, I need the driver installed. My question is, do I need to install a driver or app on a phone/tablet? I am thinking of buying an Apple Airport, plugging it into my AVB Switch' <-> port. I want to try out the Touch Console. If I can get it working on my Android phone, I will buy an iPad.
Old 27th July 2018
  #3562
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
You only need to have the driver if you’re accessing the web UI over Thunderbolt or USB. If your laptop or tablet and your AVB MOTU box are on the same network you can just use the browser without anything else. I can access mine just by typing 828es.local into Safari. For convenience there’s also an iOS app that will do the discovery work for you so you don’t have to know the box’s name or IP address.

... and you don’t need an AVB Switch if you only have one AVB box. You can plug it directly into a generic Ethernet jack and it will work just fine. I bought the AVB Switch for future expansion purposes and because I didn’t already have an Ethernet switch in that location - just one port and an unrelated NAS box that was previously occupying it.
Old 27th July 2018
  #3563
Gear Nut
 

One odd thing I encountered when running 828es on osx anyhow (TB): When I slave it to another interface clock, it constantly dropping sync. Drove me crazy on a gig (thankfully only as backup system), only to find out if I turn off the control panel (literally just close Safari), everything is stable...

Works good otherwise. Been a while since I pull it out of studio on a gig, just in case this may help some ppl
Old 28th July 2018
  #3564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by softska View Post
One odd thing I encountered when running 828es on osx anyhow (TB): When I slave it to another interface clock, it constantly dropping sync.
Which interface, and what clock sync method? Word clock? If so, properly terminated? S/PDIF? Optical? AVB clock?

I haven't had any problems with a clock derived from optical or coaxial S/PDIF, but those are the only external clock signals I've had a need to try out.
Old 28th July 2018
  #3565
Here for the gear
 

Using the 16A with analog console: help?

Long time lurker, first time poster here, thanks in advance for any help - this is a shot in the dark, but here goes:

So at our studio, we have an ancient mid-70s MCI 500 series console, and we just upgraded converters to a MOTU 16A, wired to a MacBook Pro via Thunderbolt, running Cubase 9. We're just using the MOTU as a straight-up A/D interface, analog ins and outs corresponding to the first 16 channels on the board and using the MCI's preamps, and mixing in the box with Cubase. Everything runs smoothly, latency is pretty low (4ms), routing seems to work just fine, no pops or clicks or hardware glitches. So there's just one problem: the recorded audio doesn't sound quite right. It sounds okay, but there's a seeming lack of transient response and everything sounds just a tad.. fuzzy (and the MCI board has been well maintained and recapped and all that.) We're using the MOTU's clock, no external clock (never felt like we needed one in the past) - could this be a issue? The bit rates match up fine: we're recording 24 bit, 48k, reflected both in the MOTU web app and Cubase's main window. Or could it be something else entirely?

Thanks!
Old 28th July 2018
  #3566
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Which interface, and what clock sync method? Word clock? If so, properly terminated? S/PDIF? Optical? AVB clock?

I haven't had any problems with a clock derived from optical or coaxial S/PDIF, but those are the only external clock signals I've had a need to try out.
Word clock from Zen studio. Again it become completely stable once I close the 828es control panel in Safari (48h+). Keep it open on the config page and the thing eventually decides to lose clock middle of recording for no good reason (with the control panel reflecting as such correctly as well). In case someone has to deal with it at least 1 more thing worth trying.
Old 28th July 2018
  #3567
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As I've told you before, Lady Gaia, I'm always impressed by your technical knowledge. I figure now might be an appropriate time to ask something I've been meaning to for a while; I hope you don't mind:

I heard that the 1248's S/PDIF input can "auto-clock" when it senses an input signal even if the AVB system's clock is set to internal. EDIT: Correction - see manual quote below.

I've intended all along to get a 16A as my "main" input device (and 24Ai units for ROMplers), using my Kemper's analogue I/O for recording and reamping 'cause I didn't want to mess around with conversion boxes in order to use the ADAT ports in TOSLink mode. I only recently caught a glimpse of the 1248's S/PDIF connectors and saw that they're RCAs, making them perfect for Kemper hookup.

The Kemper can't slave to clock, and I don't want to have to change sources in Digital Performer 'cause every time one makes an adjustment to the "audio system" the app shuts one out for some time whilst it reloads the audio system and refills the buffers. I think it may even have to reload sample libraries and so on 'cause, IIRC, it does so for "conventional" plugins (been a while since I ran the app).

So, could I run a 3-unit AVB system on the internal clock (if that's the "done thing") and simply power up the Kemper and count on the 1248's fancy S/PDIF feature to perform well-enough to enable me to record a dry signal from it and then subsequently reamp this through the Kemper and record the resulting tone? I'm concerned that the filtering mentioned below, when compounded by multiple pass-throughs, will deliver a less-desirable result than the Kemper's awesome analogue I/O.

Here's what the manual says:
When the 1248 clock mode is set to any other source besides S/PDIF, then sample rate conversion is automatically enabled for the input, which can record any S/PDIF signal up to 96 kHz. This is not an exact bit-for-bit digital transfer, but sophisticated filtering is applied to ensure the highest possible audio quality.

Thoughts?
Old 28th July 2018
  #3568
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
... and I don't want to have to change sources in Digital Performer 'cause every time one makes an adjustment to the "audio system" the app shuts one out for some time whilst it reloads the audio system and refills the buffers. I think it may even have to reload sample libraries and so on 'cause, IIRC, it does so for "conventional" plugins (been a while since I ran the app).
Yeah, every time you change the audio system in DP it will reload all the samples from your VIs. This is one of the reasons I'm switching to NVME drives to hold my VI data. Progress bars suck.
Old 29th July 2018
  #3569
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
As I've told you before, Lady Gaia, I'm always impressed by your technical knowledge. I figure now might be an appropriate time to ask something I've been meaning to for a while; I hope you don't mind:
I'm always happy to help where I can, though in this instance I'm afraid I don't have a definitive answer for you.

The MotU 828es manual doesn't indicate anything along these lines. Frankly, I thought the 8D was the only AVB unit that did sample rate conversion, and I'm delighted to discover otherwise. What I have noticed, however, is that the unit seems startlingly tolerant of digital sources that aren't locked to a common clock.

I have an optical S/PDIF device that I mix into the monitors, not for recording purposes, but simply for playback. I originally made sure to change clocking modes when using it but forgot once and was pleasantly surprised that it still seemed to work flawlessly. I've used it for an hour at a time without ever hearing a dropout or click. More recently, I added a Line 6 Helix and have been using the coaxial S/PDIF without setting up any external clocking and have similarly not experienced any dropouts or other audible evidence of the clock mismatch. I, too, would like to know more about what's going on here – but so far, so good.

In the long run, I'd like to run coaxial digital in and out through the Helix. That currently requires editing every single preset I intend to use, and before I go to the trouble I'd love to know more about whether how clocking that situation is supposed to work. Unfortunately, the Helix manual is extraordinarily vague about how the digital input and output are clocked. Does it sync to the input, if present? No way of knowing, so I'm in a similar boat.

Regarding your two specific questions:
  • The filtering MotU refers to would be required when dealing with sample clocks that band limit signals differently. Taking a 96kHz signal down to 48kHz requires much more than just dropping every other sample or averaging them. Whatever they do, it's all going to be in the digital domain and very clean. I'd be much more worried if they didn't specifically note that they'd be doing appropriate filtering. When the sample rate is common and the clocks just experience occasional drift by a sample every few seconds, no filtering should be necessary, and artifacts introduced should be imperceptible.
  • Given three AVB units, one will take the master role whether it's using an internal clock or is slaved to something external. The other units will be automatically synchronized to that clock by the wonderful magic of AVB/TSN. At least, that's the theory. I haven't had an opportunity to try it in practice.
Old 29th July 2018
  #3570
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply, LG.

Hopefully Travis or someone else'll be able to shed light on all this stuff for us.
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