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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 28th June 2018
  #3511
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilkinsi View Post
I see MOTU have made another "ES" AVB interface, the 8Pre-ES:

MOTU.com - Overview


Oh. I found I had to connect my 828es via USB, because unlike the 8D and 112D, it doesn't update via Ethernet. Not sure why this is. I bought the AVB Switch so I could update all my AVB interfaces at the same time (as well as route audio between them). Its done now anyway.
Does anyone know if the 8Pre-es is the same in this regard? Thanks.
Old 28th June 2018
  #3512
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rboy View Post
Does anyone know if the 8Pre-es is the same in this regard? Thanks.
It’s not true of the 828es so I don’t see why it would be true of the newer model. I update my 828es via Ethernet all the time, frequently without even being in the same room. It’s only Thunderbolt that can’t be used for firmware updates.
Old 29th June 2018
  #3513
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

I wonder if someone could refresh my memory:

Is it (for 3 interfaces hooked up to a switch box) via USB or AVB ethernet card that the Mac's system sounds aren't transmitted through the interface/s?

Still vacillating as to which way to go. USB gives me the jitters after my very-long, unblemished relationship with MOTU's PCI cards...
Old 29th June 2018
  #3514
Gear Maniac
Honestly I'm really tired of that annoying bug in motu's drivers, where my DAW crashes everytime another app start playing audio. So f-ing annoying. Fix that already. Makes me wanna have back my rme. Updating the interfaces is also a pain in the ass and sometimes just impossible. Update from file doesn't show anymore for me and every time I wanna download the update directly, it keeps hanging for hours...
Old 29th June 2018
  #3515
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ponzi's Avatar
The device cannot update firmware through the usb cable. I got no results until it was explained to me to hook up the device to the computer via ethernet cable (does not need avb), find out its ip address, and connect to a browser using that ip address. Then the update process will work. I didn't even need to disconnect the usb this time.

It would be better if the usb cable/browser connection could handle updates, but once I learned the proper procedure, the latest update took about 5 minutes.

I use the usb connection between my motu 1248 and windows pc. I am able to play things in cubase and at the same time with musicbee or youtube in a browser when I am working through a tutorial.
Old 29th June 2018
  #3516
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I use the usb connection between my motu 1248 and windows pc. I am able to play things in cubase and at the same time with musicbee or youtube in a browser when I am working through a tutorial.
The bug is in osx. Motu acknowledged it months ago and said they can reproduce it, but they can't seem to fix it...
Old 29th June 2018
  #3517
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirky View Post
The bug is in osx. Motu acknowledged it months ago and said they can reproduce it, but they can't seem to fix it...
Bummer. Don't have my mac pro anymore, so know nothing about that side of the fence... Hope they get it resolved--the 1248 has been a nice device for me.
Old 29th June 2018
  #3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirky View Post
Honestly I'm really tired of that annoying bug in motu's drivers, where my DAW crashes everytime another app start playing audio. So f-ing annoying. Fix that already. Makes me wanna have back my rme. Updating the interfaces is also a pain in the ass and sometimes just impossible. Update from file doesn't show anymore for me and every time I wanna download the update directly, it keeps hanging for hours...
Positive: The way to avoid the DAW crash, at least for me (Mac, 10.12.6 and Digital Performer), is to open the other apps when you start up for the day and leave them open, THEN start up the DAW. I have reported this bug to MOTU and they have acknowledged.

I'm not having any problem updating the 828es, which Lady Gaia correctly noted, does accept updates via Ethernet.

Also, I have to retract my prior statement about the Touch Console interface... I installed the new (non-beta) firmware and clients have advised they like the updated touch interface better than the original.

Negative: With the latest firmware, I am unable to load AVB presets other than entire system presets.
Old 30th June 2018
  #3519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
I wonder if someone could refresh my memory:

Is it (for 3 interfaces hooked up to a switch box) via USB or AVB ethernet card that the Mac's system sounds aren't transmitted through the interface/s?

Still vacillating as to which way to go. USB gives me the jitters after my very-long, unblemished relationship with MOTU's PCI cards...
Hey there mate!

Although I can't respond directly to your question, I can advise my single 828es has been performing splendidly with my Mac Pro via USB.

I hope you are doing well, today, tomorrow and beyond!
Old 30th June 2018
  #3520
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Thank you, Sir Markus!

So, I take it that iTunes and whatnot play through the interface?

It's looking like I'm going to try the AVB-ethernet-card route in the hope of glitch minimisation, but am still weighing up the situation. If this is the method that won't allow iTunes and VLC (for instance) to be played directly out of my main outs (primary interface), it'll mean utilising the Mac's line out -> interface in -> interface out. Not ideal, especially for mix comparisons without having to drag files into DP projects, which is something I've never envisaged as part of my workflow. Not great for enjoying my iTunes library either...

So far I can see 3 downsides to the ethernet route:

1) Higher latency - 9ms throughput, which I'm hoping won't matter when playing VIs manually 'cause it should be only half that as added latency over and above DP's buffer settings.

2) The system / non-pro-audio Mac apps' outputs' not being able to be routed directly to the interface.

3) Having to sacrifice a precious PCI slot for the ethernet card (2012 MP doesn't do AVB) and thus losing 4 USB ports.

I think I'll be able to live with these, provided I'm not missing anything more-major.

As always, I hope you're well, matey!
Old 30th June 2018
  #3521
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ponzi's Avatar
I will be interested in hearing about your adventures finding an ethernet card that supports avb. I looked into this a bit and only expensive server type cards supported avb, but then I read that windows does not have drivers that could do the motu/avb thing anyhoo, so I abandoned the idea. It works fine with usb anyway, but I was intrigued by the cat 5 aspect.

My understanding is that two motu avb gadgets can talk to each other ok thru a cat5 cable out of the box, and then the special expensive avb switch is needed beyond that. Whichever one connects to the computer will show the channels from both devices on the web browser mixer panel. Gotta be great to run a concert using just a few cat 5 cables between FOH and the stage, but one would have to really understand how it works to make sure things didn't get goofed up.

Its been a year or so since I checked, I wonder if there are more avb capable switches on the market now. I can get an 8 port gigabit ethernet switch for like $30, but the motu avb one is $400 for a 5 port switch.
Old 30th June 2018
  #3522
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Thank you, Sir Markus!

So, I take it that iTunes and whatnot play through the interface?

It's looking like I'm going to try the AVB-ethernet-card route in the hope of glitch minimisation, but am still weighing up the situation. If this is the method that won't allow iTunes and VLC (for instance) to be played directly out of my main outs (primary interface), it'll mean utilising the Mac's line out -> interface in -> interface out. Not ideal, especially for mix comparisons without having to drag files into DP projects, which is something I've never envisaged as part of my workflow. Not great for enjoying my iTunes library either...

So far I can see 3 downsides to the ethernet route:

1) Higher latency - 9ms throughput, which I'm hoping won't matter when playing VIs manually 'cause it should be only half that as added latency over and above DP's buffer settings.

2) The system / non-pro-audio Mac apps' outputs' not being able to be routed directly to the interface.

3) Having to sacrifice a precious PCI slot for the ethernet card (2012 MP doesn't do AVB) and thus losing 4 USB ports.

I think I'll be able to live with these, provided I'm not missing anything more-major.

As always, I hope you're well, matey!

My old MOTU interface I would just set it as the system output. It worked fine in OSX 10.8 and would play all system sounds and whatever the DAW was doing. Adobe After Effects would sometimes crash though if I chose the MOTU and both were open. VLC worked just fine.

I think I used SoundFlower to route system audio into DP and record it. Prior to that I did what you did (built-in output to interface input) but that way introduced some noise.

Not sure on Sierra or High Sierra with the new AVB units though, nor on new machines.
Old 30th June 2018
  #3523
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Gradivus, there's a definite limitation regarding system sounds' (and I therefore assume other non-pro-audio apps') being routed directly out of an interface. I just can't remember whether it's USB or ethernet that imposes it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I will be interested in hearing about your adventures finding an ethernet card that supports avb. I looked into this a bit and only expensive server type cards supported avb, but then I read that windows does not have drivers that could do the motu/avb thing anyhoo, so I abandoned the idea. It works fine with usb anyway, but I was intrigued by the cat 5 aspect.

My understanding is that two motu avb gadgets can talk to each other ok thru a cat5 cable out of the box, and then the special expensive avb switch is needed beyond that. Whichever one connects to the computer will show the channels from both devices on the web browser mixer panel. Gotta be great to run a concert using just a few cat 5 cables between FOH and the stage, but one would have to really understand how it works to make sure things didn't get goofed up.

Its been a year or so since I checked, I wonder if there are more avb capable switches on the market now. I can get an 8 port gigabit ethernet switch for like $30, but the motu avb one is $400 for a 5 port switch.
I've found a few on the 'net over the years, but the only one I can vouch for, assuming balijon is correct, is the:

Sonnet GE1000LAB-E

Here's what he had to say about it. He's mentioned it a couple o' times early on in the thread too IIRC, but AFAIK, I'm the only one who's queried him about it:

MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface

AFAIK, he didn't follow up as promised, so that's probably the last thing said about it.
Old 30th June 2018
  #3524
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gradivus's Avatar
 

@Monkey Man
Hmmm. Not sure. Mine was old and using Firewire.
Old 30th June 2018
  #3525
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

It only applies to the AVB line, and only to either USB or ethernet, still not sure which.

I ran the PCI system for 18 years, and it was perfect in this regard... and every other one AFAIC.

You mentioned app-routing utilities such as SoundFlower (I think Jack used to be another), but the problem there is that they only route between apps, not from, say, iTunes, directly to the interface; you'd still have to go through DP, and I don't want to have to do that every time I want to hear audio, which is... all the time!
Old 30th June 2018
  #3526
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
It only applies to the AVB line, and only to either USB or ethernet, still not sure which.

I ran the PCI system for 18 years, and it was perfect in this regard... and every other one AFAIC.

You mentioned app-routing utilities such as SoundFlower (I think Jack used to be another), but the problem there is that they only route between apps, not from, say, iTunes, directly to the interface; you'd still have to go through DP, and I don't want to have to do that every time I want to hear audio, which is... all the time!
Hmm.. Well, maybe the mixer software that comes with AVB units would let you route it to the main outs? ie. Setup 2 channels in SoundFlower, then set the system to use SoundFlower, then route SoundFlower in MOTUs mixer software to the main outs of the interface.

I haven't used that software yet, so just guessing. People are saying you can route damn near anything to anything else, so worth a shot I suppose.

I used to use Audio Hijack also. I haven't upgraded for a while, but that may also have an option for routing things. Last time I glanced at it it seemed to look more robust and was node-based.
Old 30th June 2018
  #3527
Gear Maniac
 
locojohn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Bummer. Don't have my mac pro anymore, so know nothing about that side of the fence... Hope they get it resolved--the 1248 has been a nice device for me.
I am not sure if it's relevant, but I can play simultaneously from any source using 828es on my 2017 iMac. I can work on my project in Ableton Live and at the same time listen to music in iTunes or Vox.... Maybe this issue is model specific or maybe I am confused, but all is working well here.

Andrejs
Old 30th June 2018
  #3528
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Likewise, no problem routing system sounds through my 828es under macOS with a Thunderbolt connection.
Old 30th June 2018
  #3529
Gear Maniac
 
locojohn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Likewise, no problem routing system sounds through my 828es under macOS with a Thunderbolt connection.
Also working the same way over USB.

Andrejs
Old 1st July 2018
  #3530
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

OK, it must be the ethernet route that doesn't allow it then. Thanks guys!

This confirms that my 3 concerns with ethernet hookup are valid.

Gravidus, thank you for that info. The only way we'll know for sure, of course, is if someone can do it on his or her system and let us know. Problem there is that there don't appear to be many who've gone this hookup route; I only know of one here and haven't heard from him in a long time...
Old 1st July 2018
  #3531
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
OK, it must be the ethernet route that doesn't allow it then. Thanks guys!

This confirms that my 3 concerns with ethernet hookup are valid.

Gravidus, thank you for that info. The only way we'll know for sure, of course, is if someone can do it on his or her system and let us know. Problem there is that there don't appear to be many who've gone this hookup route; I only know of one here and haven't heard from him in a long time...
When I get my new interface I will test it out, granted I will be connecting over Thunderbolt for personal use but I can hook up an RJ45 and I'll try out SoundFlower if it still runs in current Mac OS. Feel free to shoot me over any alternatives you find to SoundFlower that work in High Sierra if you want me to test them once I'm setup. Might be a few weeks, but should be fast to test it once I'm up and running.

Also, I have Sierra on my Laptop so I can test it there too if you'll be running that. I have an RJ45 to USB3 adapter, not sure if that's a bit too janky for ya though :P
Old 1st July 2018
  #3532
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Thank you for your generous offer and spirit, Gradivus.

The thing is you'll have to hook up via ethernet (disconnect USB / TB wiring altogether), and you're either going to have to have an AVB-capable ethernet card installed or be running one of the newer Macs (post-2012 cheese grater) that happens to be AVB-capable.

In theory your SF idea should work, I reckon, but the ethernet-only setup could affect the capabilities of the routing app - after all, we know the ethernet configuration doesn't allow "conventional" routing of the system audio to the interface. At least, it used to be the case last time I asked, which was maybe a year ago. With any luck Travis will chime in and help out...
Old 1st July 2018
  #3533
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gradivus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
Thank you for your generous offer and spirit, Gradivus.

The thing is you'll have to hook up via ethernet (disconnect USB / TB wiring altogether), and you're either going to have to have an AVB-capable ethernet card installed or be running one of the newer Macs (post-2012 cheese grater) that happens to be AVB-capable.

In theory your SF idea should work, I reckon, but the ethernet-only setup could affect the capabilities of the routing app - after all, we know the ethernet configuration doesn't allow "conventional" routing of the system audio to the interface. At least, it used to be the case last time I asked, which was maybe a year ago. With any luck Travis will chime in and help out...
The way things are looking here I'm aiming for an iMac Pro. Was this close to building a PC or getting a used spittoon, but a bunch of factors I won't bore you with steered me back to the Mac side.

My laptop is a late 2013 MacBook Pro Retina, so no ethernet port. Thunderbolt 2, USB3 or the RJ45 adapter.

I don't mind testing it, man. Unplug some crap, plug in some other crap, fiddle with some additional crap, and report the extra crap thusly.
Old 1st July 2018
  #3534
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
It took some cable juggling, but I connected my 2017 MacBook Pro via AVB to my 828es (TB3 through TB hub to a TB3->2 adapter, then to a TB2 Ethernet adapter connected to a MotU AVB Switch, finally connected at last to the 828es.) I had no trouble at all playing a YouTube video in Safari with audio routed out through the 828es and back in to a Logic Pro X session recording the audio. Logic and Safari audio were mixed on the fly without any problems (I could hear the metronome click prior to recording overlaid on the YouTube video, and I could pause the video and play back from the recording again without any problems.)

Mind you, I live on the bleeding edge so I was trying all of the above with a beta of macOS Mojave, but it all seemed to work for me. Still, back to Thunderbolt for my regular use.
Old 1st July 2018
  #3535
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Gee thank you so much for trying that, LG!

I'm certain that system audio couldn't be routed through one of the AVB interfaces when hooked up via AVB ethernet when I asked; I was told at least twice by MOTU reps here in the thread.

It could be that OSX's implementation of AVB has since allowed the inclusion.

Also, were you able to route system sounds directly through your main (AVB-inteface) outs?

Finally, could it be that using the TB port and not the e-net one, even 'though you converted in-line, made a difference?
Old 1st July 2018
  #3536
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
I've found a few on the 'net over the years, but the only one I can vouch for, assuming balijon is correct, is the:

Sonnet GE1000LAB-E

Here's what he had to say about it. He's mentioned it a couple o' times early on in the thread too IIRC, but AFAIK, I'm the only one who's queried him about it:

MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface

AFAIK, he didn't follow up as promised, so that's probably the last thing said about it.
Yes, the Sonnet GE1000LAB-E is plug and play in a MP and works like a charm (natively supported in OSX). We have 8 MacPro's running with it, some have a two card's (we are running [email protected] and are limited to 64-channels in 1Gb).

Sorry I did not follow up on your question regarding CPU-load. It changes (improved) with the OSX-releases, up to a point that you don't have to bother about it. AVB-support has improved a lot in OSX over time.

I am currently working on getting a 10Gb-AVB card working in our MacPro's (same chipset as the iMacPro). This is an important step for us, as our goal is to able to record [email protected]
Old 1st July 2018
  #3537
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Its been a year or so since I checked, I wonder if there are more avb capable switches on the market now. I can get an 8 port gigabit ethernet switch for like $30, but the motu avb one is $400 for a 5 port switch.
The biggest succesfactor for stable AVB is the switch. Yes, they are not (yet) cheap as AVB/TSN support is not mainstream (and certainly not in $30 switches...).

The cheapest you can buy is the MOTU-switch. (plug&play, no configuration needed), it works fine for smaller setups.
We have been running a Netgear GS724Tv4 with an additional AVB-license. It is a lot of fiddling to configure the right settings (the BIAMP support site provides good info). But the Netgear is not expandable with more switches. (you have 24 ports, that's it). This will be sufficient for most small studio's.
If you want to go bigger and reliable, the best you can do is to buy used Extreme Networks X440's on eBay (they are cheap!). You need to buy an additional AVB license per switch. They are the best period, rock solid and can handle 1024 streams (= 4096-channels)! You need to setup the AVB license and configure a global setting in the switch for AVB (which is very easy compared to the Netgear). We recently bought a X620-8t-2x to test 10Gb AVB.
Other AVB-switch alternatives are available:
Cisco 3650 and 3850 series (expensive!), Control4/Pakedge, Presonus. We have no experience (yet) with them.

some background reading info:
List of AVB-capable Ethernet switches - Biamp Systems
BTW, we are running BIAMP-Tesira-AVB too, works great, very stable, the only limitation is that they [email protected]
Old 1st July 2018
  #3538
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey Man View Post
I'm certain that system audio couldn't be routed through one of the AVB interfaces when hooked up via AVB ethernet when I asked; I was told at least twice by MOTU reps here in the thread.
Just out of curiosity, I rebooted into High Sierra to repeat the experiment. I was able to get system audio routed through the interface (again playing a YouTube video) but it did take a little more manual configuration.

Things took a turn for the worse when I tried launching Logic Pro. Suddenly audio was continually breaking up in static, so perhaps...

Quote:
It could be that OSX's implementation of AVB has since allowed the inclusion.
It looks like it. MotU's guidance that you can't route system audio may simply mean that if you do you won't like the results. My experiments with Mojave show a glimmer of hope for the future, though, and certainly the configuration was easier.

Quote:
Also, were you able to route system sounds directly through your main (AVB-inteface) outs?
Absolutely. Just like anything else in the routing matrix, I directed it into the mix and was able to work with it just like any other audio stream.

Quote:
Finally, could it be that using the TB port and not the e-net one, even 'though you converted in-line, made a difference?
I sincerely doubt it. Thunderbolt is just an externalized form of the PCI/e bus that Ethernet would be connected to in any case. Most software shouldn't know or care about the distinction of whether it's a built-in interface or externally connected.
Old 1st July 2018
  #3539
Gear Addict
 

I keep searching for reports on in use performance of the 8Pre-es to no avail, so maybe someone checking in here will have gotten one. I know the specs but just interested if everything works as expected and comparing the new pres in use to the previous version, which are pres I'm familiar with.

Thanks for any thoughts : )
Old 1st July 2018
  #3540
Gear Maniac
 

8pre es is interesting, now I am torn between that an the 828es.

So, there is no progress in windows avb cards functionality? It coul solve the Thunderbolt dilema
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