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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 14th August 2014
  #301
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loujudson's Avatar
So will there be a firmware upgrade to fix that? Will registred owners be notified? Gonna register now inhopes!
Old 14th August 2014
  #302
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson View Post
So will there be a firmware upgrade to fix that? Will registred owners be notified? Gonna register now inhopes!
You should definitely register but you don't need to be to get updates. We wanted to make the update process for these devices as easy and streamlined as possible. Since the web app software lives on the device itself, updates are just as likely to include new features as well as bug fixes. We really want people to stay up-to-date.

The AVB Discovery app for Mac (part of the driver install) will notify you of firmware updates if it sees a device on your network with an out-of-date firmware. Same if there is a newer version of the driver. We also announce available updates in the Device tab if there's a newer version and your browser has an internet connection (the interface itself doesn't need internet access). Updates are quick and painless—just press the update button and wait a few minutes for it to finish. Or if you're offline, download the update from an internet-connected device and upload it from the Device tab.
Old 14th August 2014
  #303
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Anything that can be said about the analog stages at all? I mean, they must be decent if they approach the measurements of the chip used, but still curious about any info.....I suppose I need to go and hear one.
Old 14th August 2014
  #304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Anything that can be said about the analog stages at all? I mean, they must be decent if they approach the measurements of the chip used, but still curious about any info.....I suppose I need to go and hear one.
Well, do you have any specific info you're looking for? I'll talk to the hardware team and see what I can find out!
Old 14th August 2014
  #305
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Well, do you have any specific info you're looking for? I'll talk to the hardware team and see what I can find out!
I don't really now what to ask, as 'what opamps are there in there?' is a daft question on some level, considering the circuit matters more......but still sort of curious how far you guys went with the 'let's max out the parts too, not just get a decent circuit going and populate it with 'will do the job' bits'.

But like I said, if you're approaching the converter chip max you must have done well with whatever is in there. Really I need to hear the thing to see what in reality comes out of it, tone wise.
Old 14th August 2014
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post

The AVB Discovery app for Mac (part of the driver install)
I see lots of development on the mac part. Im on a win system. I about to buy one but thomann says its mac only. Is this true? Seems like its targeted for mac users. Not for windows os.
Old 14th August 2014
  #307
I for one wouldn't mind knowing more about the filter design ( especially 44.1 and 48k passband frequencies, stop band rejection etc.)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Well, do you have any specific info you're looking for? I'll talk to the hardware team and see what I can find out!
Old 14th August 2014
  #308
Quote:
Originally Posted by milwel traamen View Post
I see lots of development on the mac part. Im on a win system. I about to buy one but thomann says its mac only. Is this true? Seems like its targeted for mac users. Not for windows os.
Only temporarily Mac-only. The Windows drivers are in development currently but they're not ready yet. The control UI is usable from any OS, however, via a web browser. That means if you want to get started, you could use the digital I/O to route to another interface connected directly to your computer. That could tide you over while we finish up the Windows drivers.
Old 14th August 2014
  #309
nms
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nms's Avatar
Extremely good move by Motu to have you on here fielding questions!

@Michael - Here's a big question for you which I'm sure we'd all like to know..

In terms of low latency performance, when using the TB connection how close do these units come to your old 424 pcie card? Will it be possible to match their performance?
Old 14th August 2014
  #310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I don't really now what to ask, as 'what opamps are there in there?' is a daft question on some level, considering the circuit matters more......but still sort of curious how far you guys went with the 'let's max out the parts too, not just get a decent circuit going and populate it with 'will do the job' bits'.

But like I said, if you're approaching the converter chip max you must have done well with whatever is in there. Really I need to hear the thing to see what in reality comes out of it, tone wise.
As you say, at some point, the technical details become less relevant and subjective quality and objective measurement take over. We're excited about our design and our numbers. In the end it's all about how it sounds. Take a listen—or some measurements—and see what you think!
Old 14th August 2014
  #311
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12tone's Avatar
 

mrmiller, a bump since magicd of MOTU never answered my inquiry, would you be so kind as to chime in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
magicd
since you work for MOTU,
could you please explain the reasoning behind having only one TB port?
Was this solely a cost cutting decision or some other factor? As you can see from this thread alone, an inclusion of another port would have been greatly received by the gear interested community at large...
Old 14th August 2014
  #312
Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
Extremely good move by Motu to have you on here fielding questions!

@Michael - Here's a big question for you which I'm sure we'd all like to know..

In terms of low latency performance, when using the TB connection how close do these units come to your old 424 pcie card? Will it be possible to match their performance?
Happy to be here! The upcoming update improves the latency reported earlier. Over Thunderbolt, we're seeing a round-trip latency of 176 samples through Pro Tools and Ableton at 32 samples/buffer, or .9ms (at 192khz). We're looking into speeding it up even more as well.

I don't have the numbers for the 424 cards on me nor a computer set up with them to test. That said, I looked at the driver code and did a back of the envelope calculation. Based on that, the new interfaces should be outperforming the PCI-E units.
Old 14th August 2014
  #313
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
mrmiller, a bump since magicd of MOTU never answered my inquiry, would you be so kind as to chime in?
I think my response got a little buried on page 10:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
since you work for MOTU,
could you please explain the reasoning behind having only one TB port?
Was this solely a cost cutting decision or some other factor? As you can see from this thread alone, an inclusion of another port would have been greatly received by the gear interested community at large...
Making a product often requires hard choices and trade-offs. We would have preferred two Thunderbolt ports but it just wasn’t possible given the constraints involved.

That said, USB and the networking features provide a great alternative. For the purposes of adding more I/O, networking the boxes is significantly more powerful and flexible than daisy-chaining them with Thunderbolt. In addition, we’re looking into streaming audio with AVB directly to and from your Mac via its Ethernet port. That could free up your laptop’s Thunderbolt port altogether. Most Thunderbolt docks and Apple’s Thunderbolt display have ethernet ports, too.
Old 14th August 2014
  #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Only temporarily Mac-only. The Windows drivers are in development currently but they're not ready yet. The control UI is usable from any OS, however, via a web browser. That means if you want to get started, you could use the digital I/O to route to another interface connected directly to your computer. That could tide you over while we finish up the Windows drivers.
Seems I have to wait till the drivers are ready. Waiting patiently.
Old 14th August 2014
  #315
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12tone's Avatar
 

mrmiller

thanks, missed your post somehow..

It's just that at the present moment, it's less of an issue of chaining multiple audio interfaces, it's more of a matter of the logistics of daisy chaining TB peripherals (with so many TB devices having just one port, and the new MBP's having only 2 TB ports) - it really defeats the daisy chaining abilities that were touted with TB's roll-out.

in any case, thanks again for your quick response...
Old 14th August 2014
  #316
nms
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nms's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Based on that, the new interfaces should be outperforming the PCI-E units.
I don't care about or use on board dsp stuff, but if you guys can pull off better low latency performance than your pcie cards I'll definitely be adding a 1248 to my studio!

I wonder, would it make any difference to latency performance to offer a sort of "direct mode" which bypasses the dsp extras to reduce latency further? If any significant gain were possible there that'd be a cool option. Many people prefer to keep the processing in the daw and don't use that stuff.
Old 14th August 2014
  #317
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
mrmiller

thanks, missed your post somehow..

It's just that at the present moment, it's less of an issue of chaining multiple audio interfaces, it's more of a matter of the logistics of daisy chaining TB peripherals (with so many TB devices having just one port, and the new MBP's having only 2 TB ports) - it really defeats the daisy chaining abilities that were touted with TB's roll-out.

in any case, thanks again for your quick response...
No worries and I totally understand. If you've got too many single-port Thunderbolt devices, you can still use USB or digital I/O via another interface. And if/when we get the Mac ethernet driver working to our satisfaction, that means you can avoid using a TB port at all.
Old 14th August 2014
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
No worries and I totally understand. If you've got too many single-port Thunderbolt devices, you can still use USB or digital I/O via another interface. And if/when we get the Mac ethernet driver working to our satisfaction, that means you can avoid using a TB port at all.
Can you confirm after your last post all the development is for the apple platform. Or atleast the priority goes to the apple platform. I dont want to get stuck with beta drivers and a device which is isnt workink properly, because im on win os.

Is there any time indication on when these drivers are ready for windows.
Also would like to know the other specs. Ethernet usb thunderbolt software etc. What can I expect from this product as a windows user. What will be supported? What isnt? Thanks in advance.
Old 15th August 2014
  #319
Quote:
Originally Posted by nms View Post
I don't care about or use on board dsp stuff, but if you guys can pull off better low latency performance than your pcie cards I'll definitely be adding a 1248 to my studio!

I wonder, would it make any difference to latency performance to offer a sort of "direct mode" which bypasses the dsp extras to reduce latency further? If any significant gain were possible there that'd be a cool option. Many people prefer to keep the processing in the daw and don't use that stuff.
Actually, you can already bypass the mixer and the DSP and route directly from the inputs to the computer and the computer to the outputs. That said, routing through the mixer only adds at most 6 samples of latency (depending on the effects).
Old 15th August 2014
  #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
Happy to be here! The upcoming update improves the latency reported earlier. Over Thunderbolt, we're seeing a round-trip latency of 176 samples through Pro Tools and Ableton at 32 samples/buffer, or .9ms (at 192khz). We're looking into speeding it up even more as well.
At 44.1 176 samples is ~4ms. Not bad but not exactly exciting.
I usually assume latency is
1) A/D + D/A
2) 2X the DAW buffer
3) Getting data on/off the buss (be it USB, PCI, TB etc) - drivers

From your 1248 literature we get
1) = 32 samples including your FPGA and DSP
2) = 64 in the case above (assume this doubles for 2X Sample Rate)
3) = 176 - 64 = 112 samples - asssume this is same number at other Sample Rates?

So for the 44.1 example the actual driver delay is still the largest part? Being TB (or pretty much PCI) I always thought this part could be vanishingly small (10 samples or less)... 112 samples at 44.1 is 2.5ms all by itself...
Old 15th August 2014
  #321
Gear Maniac
 

Just clarifying something, not sure if I missed it when I skimmed through the online manual, but on the 1248...do the analog inputs 1-4 override the 4 built in preamps or is this section an additional 8 inputs on top of the four built in pre's?

Thanks!
Old 15th August 2014
  #322
Gear Addict
 
Lolo22's Avatar
 

Approx how long before windows drivers will be ready?
Old 15th August 2014
  #323
I measured RME HDSPe AIO's round trip latency at 32 samples /44.1kHz, using RTL utility, and it was 169 samples /3.832ms. So, the MOTU's 176 samples actually sound good to me. Of course, there's MacOS vs. Win/ASIO difference, and measurement method is different, but...I can't wait testing with my TB on PC!
Old 15th August 2014
  #324
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beau_mckee's Avatar
Thanks Michael for coming on here to give us the deets. I for one am 2x likely to invest in a pair of these converters for the studio simply for the online support and customer interaction. A very attractive quality on top of a well crafted product with ongoing support
Old 15th August 2014
  #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masaaki View Post
I measured RME HDSPe AIO's round trip latency at 32 samples /44.1kHz, using RTL utility, and it was 169 samples /3.832ms. So, the MOTU's 176 samples actually sound good to me. Of course, there's MacOS vs. Win/ASIO difference, and measurement method is different, but...I can't wait testing with my TB on PC!
Hey - truly I am cheering for the new MOTU interfaces (choices are good!) but
AVID HDN Thunderbolt + AVID i/o (16X16 in this case) is the benchmark here:

44.1kHz
A/D + D/A (measured using LowLatency Monitor path with Scope and Function generator) = 1.9ms
Buffer = 32in 32 out = 64/44100 = 1.45ms
Measured RTL through PT11 (Scope and Function generator) = 3.35ms
Apparent i/o bus time = near zero

96kHz
A/D + D/A (measured using LowLatency Monitor path with Scope and Function generator) = 0.47ms
Buffer = 64in 64 out = 128/44100 = 1.33ms
Measured RTL through PT11 (Scope and Function generator) = 1.8ms
Apparent i/o bus time = near zero

And - At 44.1 the new MOTU A/D D/A is WAY faster than AVID --
Old 15th August 2014
  #326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico Zottos View Post
Just clarifying something, not sure if I missed it when I skimmed through the online manual, but on the 1248...do the analog inputs 1-4 override the 4 built in preamps or is this section an additional 8 inputs on top of the four built in pre's?
They are independent as are the 2 guitar inputs on the front. It's all in the name: the 1248 is 12 analog outs, 4 pres and 8 analog ins.
Old 15th August 2014
  #327
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProPower View Post
At 44.1 176 samples is ~4ms. Not bad but not exactly exciting.
176 samples is our current baseline but we're tweaking and optimizing the driver further to speed things up. Nothing definite to report yet but we're hard at work on the next update!
Old 15th August 2014
  #328
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loujudson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmiller View Post
No worries and I totally understand. If you've got too many single-port Thunderbolt devices, you can still use USB or digital I/O via another interface. And if/when we get the Mac ethernet driver working to our satisfaction, that means you can avoid using a TB port at all.
This is really great news to me! I have two MBPs - one has Thunderbolt, the other does not, and the one without TB is my recording one with a second hard drive installed. So instead of moving the drive to the TB MBP I can hope for an Ethernet option soon! (I installed the second drive when the DVD burned out, and long after that discovered my OTHER MBP has TB, which I never needed). It will be soon, yes?:-)

However, upgrading from my beloved OS 10.6.8 (I'm old fashioned, or maybe just old) in order to use your software means also upgrading Pro Tools and a bunch of rig-marole about that. Maybe I'll switch to Studio One or MixBus for my remote recordings... Old dog, new trix and all that! :-)

PS - I was really disappointed to realize that the 8M does not have digital outs! I was assuming that all three of the units has SPDIF, but not true, only one does. If I'd read more carefully I could have seen that, but the way you market them all three together obscured that little fact. I need the mic pres more than I need the SPDIF out, but still feel a bit ripped off... :-(
Old 15th August 2014
  #329
By MOTU being faster, I assume you mean 32 samples A/D/A = 0.73ms @ 44.1k (more than 1 ms faster than HDN A/D/A) ?
If PT is using low latency monitoring it might be more reasonable to exclude the DAW and computer buffer from the MOTU solution, as the built in mixer would be the low latency solution, which adds upto 6 samples, so 38 samples in total = 0.86mS at 44.1kHz

Are these numbers (above) correct (I hope), quoted from this thread...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProPower View Post
Hey - truly I am cheering for the new MOTU interfaces (choices are good!) but
AVID HDN Thunderbolt + AVID i/o (16X16 in this case) is the benchmark here:

44.1kHz
A/D + D/A (measured using LowLatency Monitor path with Scope and Function generator) = 1.9ms
Buffer = 32in 32 out = 64/44100 = 1.45ms
Measured RTL through PT11 (Scope and Function generator) = 3.35ms
Apparent i/o bus time = near zero

96kHz
A/D + D/A (measured using LowLatency Monitor path with Scope and Function generator) = 0.47ms
Buffer = 64in 64 out = 128/44100 = 1.33ms
Measured RTL through PT11 (Scope and Function generator) = 1.8ms
Apparent i/o bus time = near zero

And - At 44.1 the new MOTU A/D D/A is WAY faster than AVID --
Old 15th August 2014
  #330
Quote:
Originally Posted by askkaereby View Post
If PT is using low latency monitoring it might be more reasonable to exclude the DAW and computer buffer from the MOTU solution, as the built in mixer would be the low latency solution, which adds upto 6 samples, so 38 samples in total = 0.86mS at 44.1kHz

Are these numbers (above) correct (I hope), quoted from this thread...?
Your numbers look correct if we're talking about hardware monitoring. If you want to give a band's members individual, low-latency monitor mixes, it will always be much faster to use the built-in mixer and effects than to roundtrip through your DAW.
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