The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 19th August 2017
  #3211
Lives for gear
 
ModularOverkill's Avatar
 

MOTU just released a new update that supposedly fixes a bunch of bugs last week. I've just downloaded.

Unfortunately, I just realized that the MOTU Discovery App for iOS has not been updated in 2.5+ years! Last update was Dec 2014. It used to be reliable but is very buggy right now -- inputs/outputs don't show up, meters don't work, etc.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should have gone with Rednet instead :/
Old 21st August 2017
  #3212
Here for the gear
 

Guys is it possible to have an analog insert with the motu 624 and how are the converters compared to the apolo mk2
Old 4th September 2017
  #3213
Gear Head
 

My MOTU 1248 just died. Bought another to be delivered tomorrow while mine is being shipped back to Musictrack in the uk. Musictrack are also sending another unit for me once mine is with them.
Anyway, how do I get my saved settings in the avb app on Safari back into a new 1248? I have already saved my current setup in the app but a little worried that this setup is actually stored in the dead unit and not in Safari as well. I hope it is in Safari. Any ideas?
Old 5th September 2017
  #3214
tft
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnyburns View Post
My MOTU 1248 just died. Bought another to be delivered tomorrow while mine is being shipped back to Musictrack in the uk. Musictrack are also sending another unit for me once mine is with them.
Anyway, how do I get my saved settings in the avb app on Safari back into a new 1248? I have already saved my current setup in the app but a little worried that this setup is actually stored in the dead unit and not in Safari as well. I hope it is in Safari. Any ideas?
it is stored in the unit.
there is an option to export all settings and presets and save it to a file on the computer, but you have to do it manually.

if you haven't done that, they are lost.
i guess many people think they are working on something stored in the computer, when they open the webapp. but it runs all inside the device and one just gets to see a sort of "controler" through the browser.
this is a great feature, except for your case, when the unit dies.
Old 5th September 2017
  #3215
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tft View Post
it is stored in the unit.
there is an option to export all settings and presets and save it to a file on the computer, but you have to do it manually.

if you haven't done that, they are lost.
i guess many people think they are working on something stored in the computer, when they open the webapp. but it runs all inside the device and one just gets to see a sort of "controler" through the browser.
this is a great feature, except for your case, when the unit dies.
There is also a 24AI in the system. Could that have any of the full chain setting stored or will it just store its own part of the system chain?
If what you say is true, it's an absolute crazy way to store system settings. Units do die as I have found out.
So, my only hope is for the distributor to get my 1248 to boot up and dump its settings?
What is the procedure to dump from the unit if I get mine to boot bef8re sending it in?
Old 5th September 2017
  #3216
Gear Head
 

Within the app, I have previously stored my full studio preset with the 1248 and the 24AI as a user preset. Is that what you mean? Hope so :-)
Old 5th September 2017
  #3217
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnyburns View Post
There is also a 24AI in the system. Could that have any of the full chain setting stored or will it just store its own part of the system chain?
If what you say is true, it's an absolute crazy way to store system settings. Units do die as I have found out.
So, my only hope is for the distributor to get my 1248 to boot up and dump its settings?
What is the procedure to dump from the unit if I get mine to boot bef8re sending it in?
vinnyburns,

Unfortunately, the presets would needed to have been "exported" from the device in order to have been restored. The beauty of this system is that nothing is specific to a certain computer on the network. You can connect the device to any network and have access to the same set of presets as before. If you want to back-up these settings, should you need to restore them or move them to another 1248, they must be exported from the "Manage Presets" menu. They will download to your downloads folder.
Feel free to get in touch with us at Tech Support if you want help setting this up again. We'll get you up and running quickly.
Old 5th September 2017
  #3218
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travisvictor View Post
vinnyburns,

Unfortunately, the presets would needed to have been "exported" from the device in order to have been restored. The beauty of this system is that nothing is specific to a certain computer on the network. You can connect the device to any network and have access to the same set of presets as before. If you want to back-up these settings, should you need to restore them or move them to another 1248, they must be exported from the "Manage Presets" menu. They will download to your downloads folder.
Feel free to get in touch with us at Tech Support if you want help setting this up again. We'll get you up and running quickly.
Hi Travis. Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, with a currently dead unit it's pretty impossible to get me up and running again I would imagine. Musictrack are going to try and revive the dead unit once they get it to retrieve the presets.
You should have an automated system to make a hard backup to the computer once any new presets have been saved on the units. By saving presets via the app, you are giving the false impression that they are somehow being saved on the computer.
To add insult to injury, the brand new unit I bought from Scan in the UK to try and keep me going was just delivered. They have sent me an obviously used and abused b stock unit and charged me full price for the pleasure. So, that has now got to go back and now I have to wait for a refund.
Old 5th September 2017
  #3219
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Motu advertises that most of their devices can be used as a stand-alone mixer such as for front of hall, so the config is on the device as well as a webserver for config.
Old 17th September 2017
  #3220
Gear Maniac
 

I had to reinstall protools 11 a few months back and lost all my i/o settings for it with my motu 16a.

The motu sees one set of i/o for logic x and that works great. When I open protools 11, it switches what's available on the motu routing matrix and that makes no sense to me. It seems like protools is telling the motu what to display on the routing matrix and I cannot get my head around it. I just want to route things the same as I do in logic
Old 17th September 2017
  #3221
Gear Addict
 
rob61's Avatar
 

Has anyone using a PC used the Thunderbolt port on the 16A? Did you buy a buss card giving Thunderbolt, or use a USB 3.1 port? I have a USB 3.1 port on my Asus motherboard which looks like a USB 3.0 port. Will this with the proper cable connect to the Thunderbolt 16A port? Or is there a USB 3.1 version 2 needed?
Old 20th September 2017
  #3222
TNM
Lives for gear
without even attempting to read 108 pages, does anyone know what the motus i/o latency is .. just input to output through the DSP Mixer? I literally can not find this info anywhere, and believe me i've looked many times over the years.

I do know one thing unfortunately.. as robust as motu drivers are, and great performing especially on mac.. they are continuing the tradition of not reporting the ad/da latency in the driver.. so in any daw to get perfect on time recording you have to do a loopback to test it, then insert the offset. Unfortunately in pro tools 12 with core audio, such an offset function in the audio preferences doesn't exist. I suppose one could get around it by using the delay comp area in the mixer?

Anyway...
These are the same price as ferrofish a16 here..or just a tiny bit more expensive.. so what i am thinking is to get this to use for my 16 adat going into my apollos.. plus i'll also get extra FX which none of the other adat specific stuff has.. Furthermore, there are 16 analog inputs that could be used in an emergency, and nothing is stopping anyone from taking the master analog outs to two analog ins in the apollos, to get an extra 16 inputs minus 2 ins on the apollo, so 14 extra analog ins. Might be worth it over getting a 16 adat a/d.

BUT, this only becomes useful if the latency isn't high. If it's going to add another 3ms for example i think it's too high, i would rather stick with 0 latency analog mixer going into apollo for the extra inputs..

I am hoping it is really low like RME is.. at 44K RME through total mix is only like 1.5 ms or less depending on the model.

I am hoping the motu at 44k is no higher than 1.5 ms i.o through the dsp mixer and USING the effects, which are actually quite good. It actually makes it a cheap digital mixer that you need to use the screen for superfine control rather than totally hands on (or an ipad).. but the value can not be denied!

ANYONE with any recent or even non recent moty interface (recent can only be better).. I am sure tons of us here have something like an ultralite for example..can you just test the RTL through the cue mix.. not through the daw at all.. just the ad/da through the cue mix mixer with comp and eq activated.
pretty please? Would so love to know! Cheers
Old 1st October 2017
  #3223
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob61 View Post
Has anyone using a PC used the Thunderbolt port on the 16A? Did you buy a buss card giving Thunderbolt, or use a USB 3.1 port? I have a USB 3.1 port on my Asus motherboard which looks like a USB 3.0 port. Will this with the proper cable connect to the Thunderbolt 16A port? Or is there a USB 3.1 version 2 needed?
Would also be appreciative of an answer to this great question!
I am using a 16A with windows 10 and am experiencing MUCH trouble. On heavier projects, I get dropouts and generally sluggish results. I suspect that the 16A is the issue. My CPU meters are always MAXed out and I experience frequent clicks and loss of busses at times. This occures whil running a 40 track project with approx 20 plugins inserted throughout. ( I know that each plug debits differently).
Looking for any method of ameliorating my 16A Windows 10 peformance.
PS I run the16A at MAX buffers!

Sonar Platinum to 16A
My PC is an i7 - 4710! with 16GB RAM

Last edited by lgmab; 1st October 2017 at 12:15 AM.. Reason: add
Old 1st October 2017
  #3224
tft
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lgmab View Post
Would also be appreciative of an answer to this great question!
I am using a 16A with windows 10 and am experiencing MUCH trouble. On heavier projects, I get dropouts and generally sluggish results. I suspect that the 16A is the issue. My CPU meters are always MAXed out and I experience frequent clicks and loss of busses at times. This occures whil running a 40 track project with approx 20 plugins inserted throughout. ( I know that each plug debits differently).
Looking for any method of ameliorating my 16A Windows 10 peformance.
PS I run the16A at MAX buffers!

Sonar Platinum to 16A
My PC is an i7 - 4710! with 16GB RAM
have you tried the older driver-model?
search for "MOTU AVB Installer v1.6 (Release Date 2016-03-23)"
under this link: MOTU.com - Driver Download Links and Change Log - MOTU Hardware

with the new "pro audio" driver i get only problems (win8, intel dual core). the old one is stable and good. uninstall the proaudio-driver and install the old one.
i had to install two times in a row (the same driver-installer v1.6) to make it work, when i went back from the newer driver.
the buffer-dialog is on the computer then, not in the webapp as with the newer driver-model.
good luck ...
Old 1st October 2017
  #3225
Lives for gear
 
zephonic's Avatar
This may be slightly off-topic, but the new 828 es is looking pretty sweet to me. Seems like MOTU's answer to the Presonus Quantum, great bang for buck.
Old 1st October 2017
  #3226
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by zephonic View Post
This may be slightly off-topic, but the new 828 es is looking pretty sweet to me. Seems like MOTU's answer to the Presonus Quantum, great bang for buck.
The specs of the 828 ES for the analog signals and conversion are similar to the 1248 which were already better than the Quantum's but not by much.
Where the Quantum wins is it has 8 Mic Pres.
Old 3rd October 2017
  #3227
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
Wrong speed, iMac / DP / AVB:

I see this occasionally, and it's more of an observation than an active troubleshooting concern. It'd be nice if it never happened.

On my system at least, if you open a session that's at a different rate than the AVB interface is set for, it usually hangs, but not always. Communication between DP on my iMac and AVB over sample rate is not good, very rarely does DP dictate a changing rate and AVB follows. Usually sorting the rate, closing DP, resetting it in AVB, then reopening DP is the path. Sometimes Mac or AVB need a hard reboot to de-confuse themselves.

If it does open, you can chase you tail trying to get AVB / DP / AudioMIDI to all move to the same sample rate. Change one, to agree with the others, I may find another one has changed in response and they still disagree. Likely DP will give up and shut down MOTU Audio System in response and change to MIDI ONLY.

What rarely happens is they somehow sync at different rates, and you have shifted audio. I've seen this maybe 4 times in as many years. Yesterday I had time to experiment, and found the overall system would appear normal and play/record with AVB and DP both saying 48K, yet AudioMIDI was set on 44K1, so audio was slow and low in pitch. This shouldn't happen, but.....

FWIW, YMMV.....
Old 4th October 2017
  #3228
Here for the gear
 

Hello All,
I hope a 16A owner can help me with a question.

I was going to get the 24Ai as I only need inputs and have DB25, but the 16A seems to have better converters.
Comparing the product page in motu.com with the product manual, I found a discrepancy and want to know what's the right value.

On the page, in A/D, it says you can trim the inputs in 22dB (+2 to +24), but in the manual and other similar products say (-96 to +22). Which one is it?

And finally, Are you aware of any advantage on getting two 8A instead of one 16A ?
8A it's newer (USB3, nicer display), but I don't know if anything else changed inside besides that. (I don't care about the 100U$D difference or the word clock input)

Thanks!
Old 5th October 2017
  #3229
Lives for gear
 
Monkey Man's Avatar
 

The convertor differences come down, essentially, to the noise performance, Wolf. The character and whatnot is basically the same. For synth use, anything much above 100dB dynamic range is kinda-pointless, so IMHO the 24i units shouldn't have us missing out on anything. I still plan to grab 2 units.

Now, MOTU, I'd like to repeat the request I made a year ago for coloured metering in this "blue-screen" AVB line. I suggested, as a last resort, that you offer a coloured plastic overlay that adheres to the screen through vacuum and "static" charge, much as many fresh-from-factory outboard ROMplers use.

However, now that the 828 ES has been released, I've seen what you guys can do, and even 'though I've waited, what, 3 years now(?) to buy the 16A and 2 (at least) 24i units, I'm hugely-tempted to wait until you offer these things with that sort of colouring. It's going to be impossible for me to see, at a distance with bad eyesight (the units will be sitting in the bottom of two tall racks), the levels my synths are putting out. I need colour badly! I'll then only have to glance at the units and I'll know what's going on.

Please, please respond with some info on this. The original AVB line is still the flagship, standard-setting range AFAICT, and honestly, I've never been happy with the decision to go "all-blue".

Thank you.
Old 10th October 2017
  #3230
Here for the gear
 

control room functions

Hi Travis,

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that it would be helpful to include monitor control like functions eg. speaker switching and a talk back button into the web control interface and I'd like to reintroduce the subject as I see these are included in the the new 828es interface.Even though there are not physical buttons and knobs on say the 16a, it would be great to be able to use this functionality through the web interface, avoiding the colouration of an additional monitor controller. Id like to hear your input as well as others.Thanks and still loving the sound of these units
Old 11th October 2017
  #3231
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob61 View Post
Has anyone using a PC used the Thunderbolt port on the 16A? Did you buy a buss card giving Thunderbolt, or use a USB 3.1 port? I have a USB 3.1 port on my Asus motherboard which looks like a USB 3.0 port. Will this with the proper cable connect to the Thunderbolt 16A port? Or is there a USB 3.1 version 2 needed?

I am using a 16A with a PC. I picked up a gigabyte designare x99 and that had a usb c port on the back which you can make thunderbolt with a firmware option. I love it.
Old 14th October 2017
  #3232
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nu-tra View Post
I am using a 16A with a PC. I picked up a gigabyte designare x99 and that had a usb c port on the back which you can make thunderbolt with a firmware option. I love it.
Did you find an improvement on latency and stability with thunderbolt against usb?
Old 14th October 2017
  #3233
I don’t think I even tried usb. In general there’s definitely a difference between tubs and thunderbolt.
Old 15th October 2017
  #3234
Lives for gear
 

Can any users of the 1248 (or related units) tell me if the meter display has a clip indicator?

Of all the converter features I use, being able to look across the room and check my signal level for a "red light" is the most frequent. What do you do with a total blue screen? Getting ready for an upgrade, but no visible "clip light" would be a deal-breaker.
Old 15th October 2017
  #3235
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
Can any users of the 1248 (or related units) tell me if the meter display has a clip indicator?
Okay - I did a little digging on my and just found this quote from an SOS review:

In practice, though, this is undermined by the fact that there’s no clear indication of overs, either on the front panel or within the browser-based mixer view.

OMG Motu How can you not have a clear reading for THE single most important job of this tool? Big MOTU fan here, so - please - somebody tell me this is not true.



//
Old 15th October 2017
  #3236
Lives for gear
 

I'd say, it's just matter of habit with clip indicators, so it's no so dramatic issue to exclude interface from your shortlist IMO..
I've worked with many interfaces or converters, where those physical clip LEDs or meters wasn't visible (either an unit doesn't have it or it was simply located outside of sight somewhere in rack or machine room).
Every DAW has digital clip indicators, which are much more flexible to me in terms of infinite peak-hold, and its selective or global reset than some hardware faceplate. Sometimes it can be a bit cumbersome with lots of simultaneous tracks, but if you have larger primary or second monitor available, it's definitely not an issue. I use primarily Reaper, where I can switch full, small, or very narrow sizes of tracks.
In main arrange window, I can comfortably fit 32 horizontal strips (about 40 at smallest size). And in standalone mixer window over whole second screen, it's about 56 tracks with smaller size and about 140 tracks at narrow size, if you enable two rows display mode.. talking about normal 1920x1200 monitor.
It's rather very important for me, because I'm doing also live recordings from MADI feeds.. so high track count is rather a norm and I need to be sure, it wasn't clipped.
If you intend to use a 1248 as standalone (eg. not wired to AVB network).. how many track we're talking about.. it has 12 analog inputs and two ADATs and SPDIF.. so 30 tracks at max, typically much less at some project studio.. not so big deal to don't fit at screen IMO.

So from my point of view, it's maybe a nice to have feature to include better display, but definitely not a dealbreaker.

Michal
Old 15th October 2017
  #3237
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
I'd say, it's just matter of habit with clip indicators,
I guess that's the issue for me. *Every* single interface I've used in the last 25 years, MOTU included, has had a red light of some kind to indicate or warn of clipping.

Quote:
Every DAW has digital clip indicators...
You can still get clipping on the converter that may not show in the DAW. JMHO, but I wouldn't say it's "best practice" to rely exclusively on the DAW input meter to watch for overs.
Old 15th October 2017
  #3238
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
I guess that's the issue for me. *Every* single interface I've used in the last 25 years, MOTU included, has had a red light of some kind to indicate or warn of clipping.
Right.. different habit. That's fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
You can still get clipping on the converter that may not show in the DAW. JMHO, but I wouldn't say it's "best practice" to rely exclusively on the DAW input meter to watch for overs.
IMO metering at DAW it doesn't have anything with generally good or bad practice.. DAW metering is reliable, except of one use specific use case, when you decide to print AVB mixer effects to recorded tracks, so you'll route its outs to DAW (ASIO, Core Audio) inputs. (this alone will be pretty rare, except of maybe some screencast or VOIP software, where someone like to record fully processed live input).
Otherwise, there's no manipulation with the digital signal coming from A/D converters all the way up to a DAW, so there's no risk with its input meters with added comfort, I've mentioned. DSP mixer is typically completely parallel to DAW inputs and if you crank the audio level by some processing or level change at monitor mix, the recording won't be affected and you'll clip just final output, because internally AVB mixer has own headroom, as it's operating in floating point.

Speaking of good practices, I'd rather stay away from full modulation peaking around digital zero.. something like -9, -6 at most is much more practical to me with 24 bit recording.

Anyway.. I'm just "thinking loud" and confronting that with my own use cases and experience.. Of course, you can have completely different criteria for an interface selection.. Just for me, it's somewhere at bottom of some imaginary list.. Because my operation is mostly centered around DAW/recorder, where I watch for any clipping and don't really need some front panel things (converters are typically in rack behind my chair anyway or far from me somewhere at stage). Similarly I can clearly see computer screen, when twisting knobs at outboard gear.

Michal
Old 16th October 2017
  #3239
Gear Nut
 
Rafter Man's Avatar
I have multiple AVB units two (2) 16A's, and was hoping if somebody with a similar setup could provide some insight on a question I have before pulling the trigger on getting either an Antelope LiveClock or the Black Lion MicroClock MK3 XB..

I'm running with two (2) 16A's, connected to each other by ethernet as had been recommended, and the master 16A is connected to the MBP via Thunderbolt. I have several compressors, EQ's, and other outboard, but my only other digital device is a Yamaha spx2000 which I pretty much only use for it's reverb on snare, but still like it too much to not keep. Sometimes i'll have the Yamaha connected through the analog ins/outs, and other times (when I needed more analog ins/outs before I purchased my second 16A), I would have it connected by the AES of the Yamaha, going into a Hosa ODL-312, which then could connect to the 16A by it's TOSLink configuration in the discovery app settings. I didn't seem to notice much difference or degradation, but just wanted to clarify what i'm working with..

My question is, will I only need to connect the external word clock to my master 16A interface, and just change the 16A's clocking configuration in the "Devices"menu to Word Clock? Then shouldn't the other 16A and Yamaha box be good? Maybe would need to change the clocking configuration in the second 16A to Word Clock as well, along with the Yamaha, but is it necessary for the external word clock to be physically connected to all three of those units?

Because my problem is that i'm told a short, quality cable (mostly can only find 1 meter) is pretty important, and if it's only connected to the master 16A, then I think i'm good to go. But if I need to the External Word Clock to have 3 cables of different lengths connected to the 3 digital devices, i start to become less enthusiastic about this.

I feel like I have a pretty solid rig, and although i've pretty much only heard good things from other MOTU owners, a dedicated A to D or Master Clock sounds like it wouldn't be all for naught at this point in my evolution.
Old 16th October 2017
  #3240
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafter Man View Post
I have multiple AVB units two (2) 16A's, and was hoping if somebody with a similar setup could provide some insight on a question I have before pulling the trigger on getting either an Antelope LiveClock or the Black Lion MicroClock MK3 XB..

...

My question is, will I only need to connect the external word clock to my master 16A interface, and just change the 16A's clocking configuration in the "Devices"menu to Word Clock? Then shouldn't the other 16A and Yamaha box be good? Maybe would need to change the clocking configuration in the second 16A to Word Clock as well, along with the Yamaha, but is it necessary for the external word clock to be physically connected to all three of those units?
It doesn't make much sense to connect WC to the SPX, because it no ad/da conversion is being used there.. you can sync it from its AES input (likely like you're doing already).
Both 16A's should be connected to the external generator though to gain some benefit from arguably better clocks.

Quote:
Because my problem is that i'm told a short, quality cable (mostly can only find 1 meter) is pretty important, and if it's only connected to the master 16A, then I think i'm good to go. But if I need to the External Word Clock to have 3 cables of different lengths connected to the 3 digital devices, i start to become less enthusiastic about this.
3m isn't any excessive distance, base rate WC signal (eg. compared to superclock) is pretty robust and can well survive quite longer distances, when good coaxial cables are being used and it's properly terminated.
The note about equal lengths applies primarily to passive splitting (say via T-BNC's splits) of one output to two devices.. if each output "leg" has vastly different cable length, then impedance difference can bring some issues.
But this isn't the case with WC generators or active distributors, where each output has own separate output driver with very low output impedance, so different loading doesn't affect other outputs. This is an advantage, especially when you do some larger setups.

Quote:
I feel like I have a pretty solid rig, and although i've pretty much only heard good things from other MOTU owners, a dedicated A to D or Master Clock sounds like it wouldn't be all for naught at this point in my evolution.
For 3 devices setup, it's probably not really necessary to do.. as you can easily clock the second 16A via AVB or WC from the main unit already.
Typically it leads to pretty heated discussion about "benefits" and how it translates to better outcome (means passes through some blind test where improvements are also apparent to 3rd party person without so high expectation bias).
Well better external clocks has some rationale, when this generator has lower phase noise under PLL corner frequency than clocks in slaved device.
So it highly depends also on that factor.

I'd personally rather get some new microphone, guitar etc. where it's effect will be much more straightforward than some possible very subtle difference.
But at the end you can get some unit like BLA or Grimm CC-2.. test what it really do at your rig and possibly return it for something else.

Michal
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump