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MOTU 1248, 8M, 16A Thunderbolt interface Audio Interfaces
Old 7th July 2017
  #3151
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ponzi's Avatar
It has aux busses, so could you simply send signal off to an aux bus and then route that aux bus to a couple of the outputs--as has been suggested? My ultralite avb has 7 stereo aux busses and 6 group busses. In the device tab you can make sure all the outputs are enabled, and the routing tab is where the aux busses can be routed to outputs. It also has its own aux bus page which I have not tried.

The channel faders on mine have aux sends with level control and pre/post fader switch and pan --looks a lot like a monitor feed can be done from that.
Old 7th July 2017
  #3152
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My aux busses are all full with effects. I was hoping to be able to repurpose the monitor outputs to send just a subset of channels.
Old 7th July 2017
  #3153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ModularOverkill View Post
My aux busses are all full with effects. I was hoping to be able to repurpose the monitor outputs to send just a subset of channels.
Interesting... I will watch the thread to see what I can learn.
Old 7th July 2017
  #3154
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So that leaves me with the same question -- where do I actually control what goes to the monitors? The matrix has monitor outputs on the left, and, uh, monitor inputs across the top. Main mix is an implied mix (i.e. the mixer is the main mix), but there's no separate monitor mix.

Which is fine, I'm okay with just selecting what goes into the monitor mix, but right now it looks like I'm only able to wire one set of inputs to outputs (e.g. MAIN MIX to MONITOR OUT). If that's all I can do, I'll deal with that, but then sort of begs what MOTU expects us to put on the monitor outs.
Old 7th July 2017
  #3155
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Aha, figured it out! The monitor strip in the mixer has a drop down for source...but it looks like a button so I never clicked on it before (it defaults to the soloed track)
Old 7th July 2017
  #3156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ModularOverkill View Post
Aha, figured it out! The monitor strip in the mixer has a drop down for source...but it looks like a button so I never clicked on it before (it defaults to the soloed track)
I see that now. Interesting. I think this web mixer is a surprisingly sophisticated thing, and I think motu would benefit from doing a better job documenting its many capabilities in an understandable way.
Old 7th July 2017
  #3157
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loopy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I see that now. Interesting. I think this web mixer is a surprisingly sophisticated thing, and I think motu would benefit from doing a better job documenting its many capabilities in an understandable way.
It's complex for sure but that's because it is powerful as well. RME TotalMix is also very complex at first and it too is powerful.

Have you watched the MOTU videos covering the basics?
They are on the MOTU site.

Also YouTube has a number of videos as well.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...u+avb+software

I too had difficulties at first wrapping my head around the mixer and I come from an old school console background so I was kind of pissed at myself for not immediately grasping this beast.

What I did, was have my own mixer open on one display while I was viewing the tutorials on the other monitor and then duplicating what I was seeing. I would then stop the video and test my own interface to see how the routing effected the mix.
All of a sudden it all made sense and now I get it.
Keep at it and you'll get it.
Old 7th July 2017
  #3158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
...Have you watched the MOTU videos covering the basics?
They are on the MOTU site...
I had as of a few months ago, and I found them inadequate to the task. I watched some things on youtube as well. I have learned more about it, but I think the process is too messy and piecemeal for me to characterize it as adequate.

The biggest help for me on this is a series on macprovideo that explains signal flow in large format hardware mixers--well, motu's target market here is not Eddie Kramer who has worked with large format consoles for 30 years, its a million noobs like myself who want to make music on their home computer. A somewhat unrelated video should not be the most useful part of a product's learning curve.

As I said, the mixer is deep and sort of has functionality hidden under buttons, kind of like an easter egg hunt, and motu is probably not getting full credit for how much it does due to its confusing nature and fragmentary documentation.

Thing is, I have made my living as a computer programmer for over 30 years now, and I have developed a sense of what sort of documentation is adequate for people to fully understand a complex system. I am not saying its impossible to learn what the motu web mixer is and can do, but I don't think it should be like a mythical quest where one goes from place to place to get clues.

Heck, even today I learned something here about the monitor mix functionality.

One company I worked at had a 'usability lab' where you would take your new system and have a user try and use it. We videotaped their interactions and reviewed the tapes to learn what parts of the system were confusing. And this was mainframe stuff, not even PC/GUI. The thing is, once a person learns how something works, they to some degree lose the ability to properly evaluate how confusing it is to learn and what the stumbling blocks are. I suggest the following to MOTU:

1) Watch the mac pro video training class on large format mixers and observe how each concept is broken down to its components and explained in a simple way. Observe how ALL aspects are covered one at a time. Having a camera over someone's shoulder while they click around the gui and make comments is NOT a comprehensive explanation, its an inexpensive explanation. There are underlying concepts that are essential to fully understanding how it works.
2) Set up a usability lab and have audio consumer types try and work with the web based mixer and use this information to develop training materials.

As I said in an earlier post, I got my motu from sweetwater with a no questions asked return policy and I came within an inch of returning my ultralite avb due to frustration with the mixer.

It also looks to me like motu needs to get a better handle on the usb 3 part of this--either better windows drivers, or some diagnostic programs that provide real answers about a system beyond 'its your hardware, probably'. This leads to uncertainty about which hardware it works with. A program you can run to verify that your usb 3 port has the necessary functionality before purchase might be necessary. As a programmer, I understand how programmers meet deadlines by skipping code that gracefully handles errors. I don't know if that is what is going on here, but if more people complain about the usb 3 drivers and don't get good answers, its gonna hurt the product.

Last edited by ponzi; 7th July 2017 at 02:21 PM..
Old 7th July 2017
  #3159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
It's complex for sure but that's because it is powerful as well. RME TotalMix is also very complex at first and it too is powerful.
Complexity is fine, but the docs are pretty poorly explained. They handle simple cases fine, but complex setups (like mine -- 1248, 16, and 24ai) are a bear to wrangle, and with 'only' 48 inputs per mixer it's easy to run out of bandwidth and require submixing, which isn't explained particularly well.

To be fair, the times I've emailed their support they were fast and responsive, but this really just needs a good set of tutorials. I opted to go with an AVB setup vs. my original choice (SSL Matrix 2) because I didn't need hands on faders but I wanted the matrix 'wiring' facility for all my gear. I hate patchbays.

So I think this stuff works great, but the lack of explanation or docs makes it an unnecessary struggle.

FWIW, I use the 1248 as my master, and it has compressors/reverb attached to it. The 16 is for aux busses only, so 8 stereo out and 8 stereo in. Delays, distortion, etc. are there. The 24ai are my primary instrument inputs (I don't use mic or guitar inputs).

Routing Synth A (24ai) to a delay (16) and then into the main mix took a while to figure out, especially since you have to configure the AVB stream in/out, number of mixer channels, etc. If you miss ANY step -- you're at a loss.
Old 7th July 2017
  #3160
Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
Interesting, I have always had to disconnect TB to get updates to happen. Maybe you're saying something different, but I can't have ethernet and TB both connected to the computer at the same time.
Yea, before I didn't need to disconnect TB.
Old 7th July 2017
  #3161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ModularOverkill View Post
Complexity is fine, but the docs are pretty poorly explained. They handle simple cases fine, but complex setups (like mine -- 1248, 16, and 24ai) are a bear to wrangle, and with 'only' 48 inputs per mixer it's easy to run out of bandwidth and require submixing, which isn't explained particularly well.

To be fair, the times I've emailed their support they were fast and responsive, but this really just needs a good set of tutorials. I opted to go with an AVB setup vs. my original choice (SSL Matrix 2) because I didn't need hands on faders but I wanted the matrix 'wiring' facility for all my gear. I hate patchbays.

So I think this stuff works great, but the lack of explanation or docs makes it an unnecessary struggle.

FWIW, I use the 1248 as my master, and it has compressors/reverb attached to it. The 16 is for aux busses only, so 8 stereo out and 8 stereo in. Delays, distortion, etc. are there. The 24ai are my primary instrument inputs (I don't use mic or guitar inputs).

Routing Synth A (24ai) to a delay (16) and then into the main mix took a while to figure out, especially since you have to configure the AVB stream in/out, number of mixer channels, etc. If you miss ANY step -- you're at a loss.
I think some videos showing complex set ups would go a long way toward alleviating the confusion. I remember way back that both Soundcraft and Mackie had excellent manuals with many specific types of hook ups complete with diagrams and good explanations. Those were a big help in demonstrating what could be done with the boards.

Since MOTU AVB products are used by many big names it shouldn't be too difficult for MOTU to create some videos or hook up diagrams illustrating complex environments.

I suspect users are missing out on the advanced features because of the lack of examples.
Old 9th July 2017
  #3162
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emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robby in WA View Post
Yea, before I didn't need to disconnect TB.
Good to know we've had totally opposite experiences. No telling why.
Old 9th July 2017
  #3163
Quote:
Originally Posted by emrr View Post
Good to know we've had totally opposite experiences. No telling why.
This jogged my memory.

I have the 16A.

Previous to this update, I have always disconnected it from the Thunderbolt connection to my iMac, prior to doing the firmware update.

This time I forgot, and updated, and it worked fine.

cheers

Wiz
Old 11th July 2017
  #3164
Gear Head
 

Any sound issue to trim all the 8 analog output to -24dB ? (I have motu 1248)

I am using motu directly on my amplifier (no préamp). It's a kind of security because I need to rely to jriver master volume and don't want to kill my speakers is the software volume go to 100%.
Old 11th July 2017
  #3165
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How do y'all get Lemur to connect to the 624? OSC doesn't seem to be supported. All online references are trash and tech support laughably sent me a bs instruction set that clearly wasn't tested by them just like their firmware and updates. love how it sounds (upgraded from an MBox Mini) and the internal computer to computer connections solved my problem. But I can't get lemur to communicate with the 624. How do I get the phone trim to be adjustable via lemur/touchosc?
Old 12th July 2017
  #3166
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I have just bought an MOTU 8A to replace my Metric Halo as I needed a few more inputs and outputs.

On the specs page of the MOTU site it says, '1 x digital rotary encoder • main/phone volume'

This implies that you can control the volume of an assigned main output pair for controlling monitor volume, I also thought that I read that it was possible while reading this thread but I can't find any mention of it in the manual and randomly (educated guess) pressing buttons didn't come up with anything.

Is it possible and if so how do you do it?
Old 12th July 2017
  #3167
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTed View Post
I have just bought an MOTU 8A to replace my Metric Halo as I needed a few more inputs and outputs.

On the specs page of the MOTU site it says, '1 x digital rotary encoder • main/phone volume'

This implies that you can control the volume of an assigned main output pair for controlling monitor volume, I also thought that I read that it was possible while reading this thread but I can't find any mention of it in the manual and randomly (educated guess) pressing buttons didn't come up with anything.

Is it possible and if so how do you do it?
Hi Ed,

I'm sorry if the wording on the site is misleading. Here's the description of this feature from the manual.

"HEADPHONE OUTPUT with volume control. The LCD
provides visual feedback with a volume meter. Doubletap
the knob to mute/unmute. Hold in the knob to lock
the volume meter on screen; hold it in again to unlock
and dismiss."

The Phones knob controls only the Phones Volume on this unit.
Old 12th July 2017
  #3168
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TornadoTed's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travisvictor View Post
Hi Ed,

I'm sorry if the wording on the site is misleading. Here's the description of this feature from the manual.

"HEADPHONE OUTPUT with volume control. The LCD
provides visual feedback with a volume meter. Doubletap
the knob to mute/unmute. Hold in the knob to lock
the volume meter on screen; hold it in again to unlock
and dismiss."

The Phones knob controls only the Phones Volume on this unit.
Great thanks for clearing that up Travis, time to go and research monitor controllers I guess

Could that be changed with a firmware update or is it physically tethered to the headphone amp? I think the ability to control the volume of say outputs 1&2 with the encoder would be a fantastic added feature.
Old 12th July 2017
  #3169
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTed View Post
Great thanks for clearing that up Travis, time to go and research monitor controllers I guess

Could that be changed with a firmware update? I think the ability to control the volume of say outputs 1&2 with the encoder would be a fantastic added feature.
Thanks for the input, I'll be happy to forward your suggestion to development! :-)
Old 12th July 2017
  #3170
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I've noticed none of the OSC related **** has been addressed by MOTU I read all 100+ pages (massive waste of time) hoping for insight into OSC but nope. Is the 624 even an OSC server? And why no bidirectional communication? The fact I've had to involve a programmer to help me is beyond ridiculous. This is not what OSC support should imply. I shouldn't have to learn CURL, JSON and more just to control my phone trim...
Old 12th July 2017
  #3171
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoTed View Post
Great thanks for clearing that up Travis, time to go and research monitor controllers I guess ....
I have an ultralite avb which does have the monitor out volume knob. I got really tired of fussing with that little knob and got a Mackie passive one knob which I like well enough. It has some left-right unbalance at the lowest volume range, but that is lower than I use, so its not a problem.

Old 12th July 2017
  #3172
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Does the Mackie One Knob alter the sound quality? Last thing id want is to have spent all this money on amazing converters (I have a 624) just so the big Knob colors the sound in a negative way.
Old 12th July 2017
  #3173
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMouseNYC View Post
Does the Mackie One Knob alter the sound quality? Last thing id want is to have spent all this money on amazing converters (I have a 624) just so the big Knob colors the sound in a negative way.
Not that I can tell, but I don't consider myself to have above average listening skills.

OTOH, I am curious if the 624 sounds better than my ultralite avb. It has better specs.
Old 13th July 2017
  #3174
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not familiar with motu's product update cycle, but it's been right around three years now on these devices, 8a and 624 with usb 3.0 have been recently released, i'm wondering when the next gen 16a/1248/monitor 8/8m versions will be released?
Old 13th July 2017
  #3175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rean1mator View Post
not familiar with motu's product update cycle, but it's been right around three years now on these devices, 8a and 624 with usb 3.0 have been recently released, i'm wondering when the next gen 16a/1248/monitor 8/8m versions will be released?
Just curious, why they should do that? As you've mentioned in your previous posts and as couple of other people already wrote before.. In the current state their USB 3.0 support is rather problematic with regards to reliability and compatibility.
Of course, can't really speak for MOTU, but rather assuming, the upgrade of previous models in their AVB lineup just to include USB 3.0 doesn't look like priority task to me.
There's already Thunderbolt at those interfaces, which, when it's well implemented, provides not only bandwidth increase, but also higher efficiency compared to USB (I expressed several times, it's rather derail to me, although there is much percentage of systems with it). So when someone needs to record lot of I/Os (exceeding bandwidth capacity of USB 2.0) at really low latency, it's not budget rig anymore and although it's not easy to with finding suitable board with or notebook TB support at Windows world, it seems to be much better to focus on getting such TB system, than desperately wait for stable USB 3.0.

Michal
Old 14th July 2017
  #3176
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Just to re-check some questions I think I have the answer to, but the information available is surprisingly fragmentary:

1) Is it possible to get a thunderbolt pci-e card for a non-tb motherboard? I have concluded it is not, as the tb support is integrated into the mobo--connects directly to the cpu.
2) Does motu have avb drivers for windows 10--will avb work on windows 10 if an avb capable network card is installed? Surely this would be a good thing for MOTU to be clear about on the product page--they sure allow people to conclude such support does exist. I have read it will not work as expected as such drivers do not exist.
3) Are there any Ethernet switches coming on the market that support AVB in addition to the MOTU ones? The motu switch is expensive compared to your average gigabit Ethernet switch.

I have a socket 1150 mobo which does not, to my knowledge, have tb support. Its sort of a server oriented board with a xeon cpu. For my home needs, its clear that usb 2.0 has adequate bandwidth, but it bothers me that I am somewhat limited regarding new products because of no tb.

I do have some usb 3.0 sockets, direct from the mobo. I suppose if I got a motu 8a or the like, I could see it the 3.0 worked on it.

PS: I recall some discussions where there were windows 10 support issues for various versions of thunderbolt, so it seems like kind of a lengthy and uncertain quest for those who do not have a mac.

So, it seems to me like a fair statement to conclude that for a windows 10 user, the motu devices would be usb 2.0 only, but can connect to each other with avb. It strikes me that MOTU ought to make the requirements for these technologies clear on their product pages: Versions supported, drivers needed, network cards that are known to work, the whole thing--otherwise they have a device with two highly advertised and minimally functional windows support interfaces.

Last edited by ponzi; 14th July 2017 at 03:48 PM..
Old 14th July 2017
  #3177
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who said the expectation was that the mk2 version should/would only include usb3.0 support. product lifecycle, it's been three years. i'm just wondering if there will be an mk2 version coming up anytime soon. obviously with 8a released usb 3.0 would be on the table but assuming other changes to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by msmucr View Post
Just curious, why they should do that? As you've mentioned in your previous posts and as couple of other people already wrote before.. In the current state their USB 3.0 support is rather problematic with regards to reliability and compatibility.
Of course, can't really speak for MOTU, but rather assuming, the upgrade of previous models in their AVB lineup just to include USB 3.0 doesn't look like priority task to me.
There's already Thunderbolt at those interfaces, which, when it's well implemented, provides not only bandwidth increase, but also higher efficiency compared to USB (I expressed several times, it's rather derail to me, although there is much percentage of systems with it). So when someone needs to record lot of I/Os (exceeding bandwidth capacity of USB 2.0) at really low latency, it's not budget rig anymore and although it's not easy to with finding suitable board with or notebook TB support at Windows world, it seems to be much better to focus on getting such TB system, than desperately wait for stable USB 3.0.

Michal
Old 14th July 2017
  #3178
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you need a thuderbolt mobo. I actually reached out to Motu last week enquiring whether they have any recommendations based on which thudnerbolt versions they tested with on windows during their development and they said any should work and that they get almost no support tickets related to windows and thunderbolt. they said since thunderbolt has far less versions than usb 3.0 that it shouldn't be an issue. the flip side is that i really don't think many windows users are using thunderbolt in a windows environment due to that fact that it's fairly new. i'm not completely confident i won't have an issue but, i'm planning on building a new desktop with thunderbolt soon, so will report back once i tested over thunderbolt.

usb 3.0 does work far better for me since i installed recent latest drivers and firmware.. i still get interface disconnecting but no more blue screen crashes since update.

if you want a mostly reliable set up don't use the ASMEDIA chipset, i'm using a 5 port usb 3.0 pci-e card from inateck which uses a different chipset and it works well enough now. although i haven't actually tested with my onbaord asmedia since the driver and firmware upgrades recently.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Just to re-check some questions I think I have the answer to, but the information available is surprisingly fragmentary:

1) Is it possible to get a thunderbolt pci-e card for a non-tb motherboard? I have concluded it is not, as the tb support is integrated into the mobo--connects directly to the cpu.
2) Does motu have avb drivers for windows 10--will avb work on windows 10 if an avb capable network card is installed? Surely this would be a good thing for MOTU to be clear about on the product page--they sure allow people to conclude such support does exist. I have read it will not work as expected as such drivers do not exist.
3) Are there any Ethernet switches coming on the market that support AVB in addition to the MOTU ones? The motu switch is expensive compared to your average gigabit Ethernet switch.

I have a socket 1150 mobo which does not, to my knowledge, have tb support. Its sort of a server oriented board with a xeon cpu. For my home needs, its clear that usb 2.0 has adequate bandwidth, but it bothers me that I am somewhat limited regarding new products because of no tb.

I do have some usb 3.0 sockets, direct from the mobo. I suppose if I got a motu 8a or the like, I could see it the 3.0 worked on it.

PS: I recall some discussions where there were windows 10 support issues for various versions of thunderbolt, so it seems like kind of a lengthy and uncertain quest for those who do not have a mac.

So, it seems to me like a fair statement to conclude that for a windows 10 user, the motu devices would be usb 2.0 only, but can connect to each other with avb. It strikes me that MOTU ought to make the requirements for these technologies clear on their product pages: Versions supported, drivers needed, network cards that are known to work, the whole thing--otherwise they have a device with two highly advertised and minimally functional windows support interfaces.
Old 15th July 2017
  #3179
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Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
Just to re-check some questions I think I have the answer to, but the information available is surprisingly fragmentary:

1) Is it possible to get a thunderbolt pci-e card for a non-tb motherboard? I have concluded it is not, as the tb support is integrated into the mobo--connects directly to the cpu.
AFAIK, and I can speak for Mac only, no. I assume the same limitations will apply with PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
2) Does motu have avb drivers for windows 10--will avb work on windows 10 if an avb capable network card is installed? Surely this would be a good thing for MOTU to be clear about on the product page--they sure allow people to conclude such support does exist. I have read it will not work as expected as such drivers do not exist.
All I know is that OSX has AVB built-in, so theoretically any AVB-capable PCI card will do the trick for the AVB line. Multiple interfaces would go into MOTU's switch box and in turn that would connect to the card. Again, I can't speak for Windows, but it sounds like the MOTU gear relies, in this scenario, on OSX's driver/s, so unless Windows has them, you may be SOL on that one... for now... unless MOTU has or will jump in and provide the drivers from its end for Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
3) Are there any Ethernet switches coming on the market that support AVB in addition to the MOTU ones? The motu switch is expensive compared to your average gigabit Ethernet switch.
Early on in my research I remember reading that according to MOTU there are alternatives to its own switch box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I do have some usb 3.0 sockets, direct from the mobo. I suppose if I got a motu 8a or the like, I could see it the 3.0 worked on it.
It should 'cause it's backwards-compatible with USB2, and the MOTU driver will allow 64 channels simultaneously in each direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
So, it seems to me like a fair statement to conclude that for a windows 10 user, the motu devices would be usb 2.0 only, but can connect to each other with avb. It strikes me that MOTU ought to make the requirements for these technologies clear on their product pages: Versions supported, drivers needed, network cards that are known to work, the whole thing--otherwise they have a device with two highly advertised and minimally functional windows support interfaces.
Agreed. More specifics would be handy and save a lot of research time.

For you I guess it boils down to whether or not you can live with the USB2 connection (should be fine) or want to explore the ethernet AVB option further. Given that it's a simple P'nP option on the Mac using a suitable PCI ethernet card, I sure hope you're able to do something similar on your PC.

Hopefully Travis or someone else will chime in with definitive answers for you. Good luck Ponzi!
Old 15th July 2017
  #3180
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ponzi's Avatar
I just got a used motu 1248, so no more energy for me into thunderbolt or usb 3. It works fine with usb 2.
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