The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Sonimus Satson vs Sonimus Britson Saturation Plugins
Old 5th August 2014
  #31
Lives for gear
 

If you recorded your tracks too hot and need to pull down gain with this plugin (or a plugin before it) that's something to look at, as there is no need to be hitting your front end that hard- -18dbfs = 0dbvu seems to be a standard, so things over -18dbfs on the way in are hitting harder. A little harder would be ok depending on converters, but if you are regularly hitting 0dbfs on your tracks you'd be hitting your front end with a very hot signal.

I am always using this plugin to add to the signal to bring it to 0vu on satson, then using it on buses (in reaper, so folder tracks ad main output) with the buss portion and using my faders to bring the levels to the buses at 0vu.

Also, if you click the gain compensation switch on the back (full version of satson, I don't think the cm version has this), then it is only saturation, not adding any gain at all.
Old 5th August 2014
  #32
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogernotroger View Post
I'm not getting into "wrong" or "right" methodology, so...

I don't want Britson on every channel, so I use Ableton 'utility' to set -18dbfs, then adjust the clip level, then if I want to add Britson, I add it for the characteristics, and don't worry about using it as a trim.

Might not be "right", but it works for me, and - here's the thing - nobody else will know either way when they hear the mix! It either sounds good, or it doesn't.
I'm just telling you you're wasting time and using extra moves to achieve a very simple thing. I mean sure I COULD add 15 db, then trim 15 db, then add 15 again, then trim 15 before I do any processing, but... Why would you waste all that time? It makes no difference, and it doesnt either the way you hit Britson's front end, then use it to adjust back.

I understand what you're saying about not using it all the time, and using trim anyways, I'm just trying to help you understand the plug properly, because by the way you've talked about it, you do not in fact know how it works. Again, I dont care how you use it, but atleast be informed how it works.
Old 5th August 2014
  #33
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrufino1 View Post
If you recorded your tracks too hot and need to pull down gain with this plugin (or a plugin before it) that's something to look at, as there is no need to be hitting your front end that hard- -18dbfs = 0dbvu seems to be a standard, so things over -18dbfs on the way in are hitting harder. A little harder would be ok depending on converters, but if you are regularly hitting 0dbfs on your tracks you'd be hitting your front end with a very hot signal.

I am always using this plugin to add to the signal to bring it to 0vu on satson, then using it on buses (in reaper, so folder tracks ad main output) with the buss portion and using my faders to bring the levels to the buses at 0vu.

Also, if you click the gain compensation switch on the back (full version of satson, I don't think the cm version has this), then it is only saturation, not adding any gain at all.
Thanks guys for the clarification on this. So, to be clear, Britson does the same processing regardless of gain setting in the trim? Unless in output compensation mode?

It's possible the difference I am hearing is how the difference in the Britson gain structure is hitting my bus compressor. I will do more testing on solo tracks.
Old 5th August 2014
  #34
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrufino1 View Post
Also, if you click the gain compensation switch on the back (full version of satson, I don't think the cm version has this), then it is only saturation, not adding any gain at all.
Yes and no. In operational terms, sure, but I'm suspecting it still just adds gain, saturation happens inside, and then the gain is compensated(cause you know, that's the name of it).

The saturation happens all inside Britson, based on the gain level. Not the gain level going in, or the fader level, THE LEVEL OF GAIN. That's all.

If you have have 2 identical files, one at like -40, and one at -60 going into Britson, both will have the same amount of saturation once you set them to be showing the same response on the VU meter.
Old 5th August 2014
  #35
Lives for gear
 
Jolly Jimmy's Avatar
 

A simple null test confirms that trimming the signal before hitting Satson or using the built in trim gives the same result.
Old 5th August 2014
  #36
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Jimmy View Post
A simple null test confirms that trimming the signal before hitting Satson or using the built in trim gives the same result.
Well done.
Old 5th August 2014
  #37
Lives for gear
 
Jolly Jimmy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by los marbles View Post
Well done.
...um,...er,...thank you?
Old 5th August 2014
  #38
Gear Maniac
 
rogernotroger's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotJimmyBuffet View Post
I'm just telling you you're wasting time and using extra moves to achieve a very simple thing. I mean sure I COULD add 15 db, then trim 15 db, then add 15 again, then trim 15 before I do any processing, but... Why would you waste all that time? It makes no difference, and it doesnt either the way you hit Britson's front end, then use it to adjust back.

I understand what you're saying about not using it all the time, and using trim anyways, I'm just trying to help you understand the plug properly, because by the way you've talked about it, you do not in fact know how it works. Again, I dont care how you use it, but atleast be informed how it works.
In all seriousness, can you tell me how it works, because now I have the feeling I really don't understand it properly, and I DO want to understand... I'm not a "trained" engineer, so there's loads of stuff I get wrong all the time...
Old 5th August 2014
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
rogernotroger's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Jimmy View Post
A simple null test confirms that trimming the signal before hitting Satson or using the built in trim gives the same result.
I think that's what I was saying... Right?
Old 5th August 2014
  #40
Gear Maniac
 

real quick... this -18 dbfs you refer to... If I have a kickdrum (for instance)... and it is playing in Ableton... and the Kick's channel-meter reads: -18.00. then that's the same as -18 dbfs?

because if that is true, how come when I create a Bus, of which I send the full signal of the Kick to, and I throw Brit or Sat on the Bus, the meter doesn't say 0 dbVu?... its lower?

is it cuz Brit/Sat is averaged?... and chances are, if Brit/Sat had a PPM it would show the 0db?


I keep gettin confused about the whole "-18dbfs = 0dbVu"
Old 5th August 2014
  #41
Gear Nut
 

Britson is a VU meter, meaning it averages the signal over the last 300ms and gives you a reading.

This is why you can have your kick peak at -18dbfs, and not be anywhere near 0VU, and why if you bring it to 0VU it can clip.

The kick transient is too quick for the VU meter to display accurately.

I usually put kicks around -10 on the VU
Old 6th August 2014
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Jolly Jimmy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogernotroger View Post
I think that's what I was saying... Right?
Absolutely! I also hit Satson at -18dBFS~0VU. Just confirming that the sound is the same either way.
Old 6th August 2014
  #43
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Jimmy View Post
Absolutely! I also hit Satson at -18dBFS~0VU. Just confirming that the sound is the same either way.
Sorry just so we're clear, he was confirming what I said, not the other user. I again just confirmed what I said in a test 10 seconds ago.
Old 6th August 2014
  #44
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Jimmy View Post
...um,...er,...thank you?
Serious. I wouldn't have taken the time myself to confirm that, or even thought to do it.
Old 6th August 2014
  #45
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotJimmyBuffet View Post
Yes and no. In operational terms, sure, but I'm suspecting it still just adds gain, saturation happens inside, and then the gain is compensated(cause you know, that's the name of it).

The saturation happens all inside Britson, based on the gain level. Not the gain level going in, or the fader level, THE LEVEL OF GAIN. That's all.

If you have have 2 identical files, one at like -40, and one at -60 going into Britson, both will have the same amount of saturation once you set them to be showing the same response on the VU meter.
Exactly, because if the saturation hits at a certain point based on the file going in, then you use the gain control accordingly to adjust. Just like on a mixer- your gain knob is based on the input level, and you use it to control the amount of signal entering your mixer. So a loud source needs less gain to reach optimal level, a quiet source needs more. Then the mixer processes those signals in the same way. If you distort your front end with too much gain (I use pads on drum mics constantly to avoid this), then all a fader does is raise or lower a distorted signal. Sometimes, as in the Beatles "revolution," exactly what they intended. That's why satson also has that switch on the back that increases the gain. I use satson as a trim plugin, but usually adding to it to get the gain structure in my daw.

Also exactly right with compensation- it effectively makes it so satson adds no gain to the signal, although inside it may be adding and taking away. If you distort the input of a guitar amp but turn down the master volume you'd increase saturation without necessarily increasing volume, as opposed to using a guitar amp with no master volume where the gain necessary to distort may result in a much louder signal. Same concept.

All I know is my mixes took a major leap forward when I got satson a few years ago. I usually mix in auria on ipad now, so I haven't checked out Britson at all. But when I record to reaper, I use satson on all the channels before I export them for auria.
Old 6th August 2014
  #46
Lives for gear
 

so no need for trim plugins pre- Britson/Satson?... even if I'm "hitting" Britson or Satson with more than 0dbVu, as long as I adjust Britson/Satson trim-fader/knob so that meter says 0dbVu (and less for percussion) than its all fine and dandy?

just makin' sure I'm understanding thread correctly.

thanks everyone
Old 6th August 2014
  #47
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by qb748t394 View Post
so no need for trim plugins pre- Britson/Satson?... even if I'm "hitting" Britson or Satson with more than 0dbVu, as long as I adjust Britson/Satson trim-fader/knob so that meter says 0dbVu (and less for percussion) than its all fine and dandy?

just makin' sure I'm understanding thread correctly.

thanks everyone
Yes you are correct, this is how the plugin operates.

Same as with any plug that has an 'input' gain, it's the FIRST link in the chain, so even if you're hitting -.1dbfs, the plugin will adjust that before hitting any saturation stages
Old 6th August 2014
  #48
Gear Addict
 

Satson doesn't have any numeric indictators on the gain control.
So there's no way of telling exactly how much you've altered the input gain
Personally I find that very annoying, and still use the trim plug to do that job.
Britson has a marked fader.

Thankfully Britson has no skeuomorphic reflection in the VU which is distracting and stupid in Satson. It also has a vca style grouping setup that Satson doesn't have.

So Britson looks a lot better to me, and has a few extra things, haven't actually heard it yet though.
I use Satson all the time, wish they'd update it.
Old 6th August 2014
  #49
Gear Nut
 

I believe you can right-click on the knob to get the value, but I've come to like my plugins that dont display a true value, like the SW34.
Forces me to use my ears, and not my analytical mind. Doesnt matter where your lo-cut is, as long as it sounds right.

And I thought with Satson you could just click the VU meter to get a non-reflective screen. I actually wish Britson DID have this, haha.
Old 6th August 2014
  #50
Lives for gear
 
Jolly Jimmy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by original_min View Post
Satson doesn't have any numeric indictators on the gain control.
So there's no way of telling exactly how much you've altered the input gain
Personally I find that very annoying, and still use the trim plug to do that job.
Britson has a marked fader.

Thankfully Britson has no skeuomorphic reflection in the VU which is distracting and stupid in Satson. It also has a vca style grouping setup that Satson doesn't have.

So Britson looks a lot better to me, and has a few extra things, haven't actually heard it yet though.
I use Satson all the time, wish they'd update it.
You can view and enter values numerically on Satson for the gain and filters (command-click here on OS X/Logic X). You can also click the right hand side of the VU meter to turn of the reflection. And an update including grouping à la Britson is coming too!
Old 6th August 2014
  #51
Lives for gear
 
BasariStudios's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by qb748t394 View Post
so no need for trim plugins pre- Britson/Satson?... even if I'm "hitting" Britson or Satson with more than 0dbVu

In reality no, its not correct. There are few other reasons to hit Britson PRE at
0dbVU. If you Track is already HOT and even Distorted before it hits Britson,
Britson will just lower the input Volume of that Track. NOTHING ELSE.
So if your Track is at 0dbFS or over and already has artifacts and then you go to
Britson and Gain Stage there at 0dbVU the Track will not lose its Distortion or
whatever artifacts are there, Britson will just make the Volume Lower.
I still like to take the longer route, put a Trim before Britson OR...put a VU Meter
before Britson and adjust the Main Volume on your VST Instrument, if you are using
a VST Instrument for that Track. So in my experience, view and opinion, i would
still like to hit Britson at 0dbVU at Pre, before it even gets there, unless i am
overdriving something on purpose. And then there is something else too, if the Track
is Audio and already recorded too hot or over 0dbFS then you can't do nothing to it.
Old 6th August 2014
  #52
Gear Nut
 

I just checked this, and you are incorrect, unless you are driving ANOTHER plugin before Britson.

I just added 30 decibels in clean gain to a guitar track, it started to distort and clip, then I bought it back down with Britson, and there's nothing, no artifacts, no distortion.

IF, however, you are using a plugin that DOES emulate hardware, ie, imparts harmonics and saturation and distortion when driven, then Yes, anything you add in terms of distortion will only be brought down in volume, because it is part of the signal going in. If you're working with a track that has digital distortion PRINTED IN, then you're already ****ed an NO plugin will help you.

Please please everyone stop spreading misinformation about how this works.
Old 6th August 2014
  #53
Lives for gear
 
Jolly Jimmy's Avatar
 

NotJimmyBuffet is right. Even if you're clipping the plugin's input, the gain control can bring the level down with identical results to using a trim beforehand.
Old 6th August 2014
  #54
Gear Maniac
 

part of me still wants to take the long route and trim before... although, i would just lower volume of instrument, or audio-file in ableton... so there's not an actual trim-plugin that i'm using.
Old 7th August 2014
  #55
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by penumbra View Post
part of me still wants to take the long route and trim before... although, i would just lower volume of instrument, or audio-file in ableton... so there's not an actual trim-plugin that i'm using.
That's great, as long as you're aware that part of you is still wrong and your preference doesnt change the hard coded algorithms that the plugin is built on.
Old 7th August 2014
  #56
Lives for gear
 
BasariStudios's Avatar
Try this:
Get a VST Synth, record a part, drive it to 0dbFS or + in red, add Britson after,
leave the DAW fader at 0, change your DAW's Meters to PRE and then
try lowering in Briston...watch what happens...NADA! Your DAW's Meter will still
show overdriven. Eveything is same and distorted, no matter what you do in Britson.
As i said, Britson's Trim can not do ANYTHING AT ALL to the signal that is entering
it, it can only do from that Stage on, once it enters it, it does not do Miracles on
the DAW Input, only on its own Input. An overdriven Signal in Zebra, Blue2, Diva
or whatever will still go in Britson as it is, overdriven.
Old 7th August 2014
  #57
Gear Nut
 

How are you driving it?
Old 7th August 2014
  #58
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Jimmy View Post
You can view and enter values numerically on Satson for the gain and filters (command-click here on OS X/Logic X). You can also click the right hand side of the VU meter to turn of the reflection. And an update including grouping à la Britson is coming too!
That stuff doesn't seem to be happening in Pro Tools.
Perhaps only the AU...
Old 7th August 2014
  #59
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotJimmyBuffet View Post
I believe you can right-click on the knob to get the value, but I've come to like my plugins that dont display a true value, like the SW34.
Forces me to use my ears, and not my analytical mind. Doesnt matter where your lo-cut is, as long as it sounds right.

And I thought with Satson you could just click the VU meter to get a non-reflective screen. I actually wish Britson DID have this, haha.
Yep, defo not happening in my ProTools plug. Version 1.2.3

I know what you mean about doin' it by ear and stuff, that's all good.
I'm forced to use it that way and I get by.
But to me it's like saying flying an aeroplane is better without an altitude meter.
'Just feelin' it' isn't quite my style.

I like to know exactly what I'm doing while I'm do it.

But by the sounds of you Logic users having that already.
I'm missing out!
Old 7th August 2014
  #60
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotJimmyBuffet View Post
That's great, as long as you're aware that part of you is still wrong and your preference doesnt change the hard coded algorithms that the plugin is built on.


yer a funny guy NotJimmeyBuffet... its cool... no hard feelings Champ
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump