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NI Maschine vs Ableton Push? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 8th April 2014
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clonkified View Post
Am I correct in understanding that with Push, you cannot load 3rd-party VSTs from the hardware unless you make instrument racks? But even then, you can't browse presets from the hardware?
One of the most disappointing things about Push is its awful browsing. You can't even browse and load Live clips with it. You can't browse 3rd party plugins and you can't even browse and load your own audio samples easily. You can't just browse to a folder where your samples are like you can with Maschine. With Push, you would have to store your sample in a specific folder within Live's core library or put them in subfolders named the same way as in the core library (Kick, Snare, Misc Percussion, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clonkified View Post
With Maschine, you can load 3rd-party VSTs, but you cannot browse presets from the hardware from what I know.
If you save 3rd party plugins as Maschine modules, then you can browse presets within the Maschine hardware. All native NI plugins (Komplete) already have built-in preset browsing from within Maschine hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clonkified View Post
I do like Maschine's ability to browse all samples from the hardware and create kits on the fly. Can you do that with Push or is it just the Drum Racks you've set up previously?
Push does absolutely nothing when it comes to a sampler based workflow. You can't browse your own samples or record samples into Live from it, you can't duplicate pads or slice samples from it...etc. You can't even preview samples before loading.
Old 29th March 2015
  #32
Just switched from Maschine to Push

Maschine has awesome sounds, but I have to agree with the other folks on this thread. Maschine's integration with Live has been a tremendous struggle. After testing it during 5 or 6 sessions with a friend, I purchased Push out of frustration. I'm much happier now. I'm going to see if I can use Maschine's sounds with Ableton Live.

I'd also like to add that Push is fun as well as functional. It really does work more like external hardware vs. a simple external controller. Recommended for Ableton people.
Old 31st March 2015
  #33
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CarLofgren's Avatar
 

After nearly pulling the trigger on Push I am back on square one again after realizing Push needs lots of work when using 3rd party plugins. Damn. People talking about writing your own Python scripts to extract presets into push - seriously! It also seem like Ableton have forgotten about Push. No new developments for ages.

/C
Old 31st March 2015
  #34
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ImNotDedyet's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarLofgren View Post
After nearly pulling the trigger on Push I am back on square one again after realizing Push needs lots of work when using 3rd party plugins. Damn. People talking about writing your own Python scripts to extract presets into push - seriously! It also seem like Ableton have forgotten about Push. No new developments for ages.

/C
There are some third party scripts out there that help with the Push integration with some third party plugs. (Komplete for example, and I know of another for either Diva or Zebra but can't remember who) You could always do the MIDI learn functionality on the plugs as well to control plugs with your Push. But yes, third party plug integration with Push is lacking.

They've also added some functionality in the latest Live beta for Push - not much...aftertouch improvements and using the ribbon as mod wheel I believe.
Old 31st March 2015
  #35
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login's Avatar
For surfing presets if the plug in accepts MIDI program change you can use a max4live device to simply send bank and program number using Push encoders: Keyboard Control version 2.2.2 by PatrickDSP on maxforlive.com

And well you also have to put in perspective how good any controller is for loading plug ins and controlling them: Kontrol S is very good but only for NI stuff. Akai Advance Series needs another plug in to work.

Neither of those gives you the integration Push does with Live.
Old 31st March 2015
  #36
I wouldn't recommend Maschine to anyone who intends to use it in a DAW - that's a logistical nightmare. It is not well suited for use within a daw.
Old 1st April 2015
  #37
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Will The Weirdo's Avatar
I use Maschine and Push just fine in Studio One 2.6 and Live 9, pure creative bliss. As always, to each their own.
Old 1st April 2015
  #38
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CarLofgren's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
Neither of those gives you the integration Push does with Live.
Well that _IS_ true, but what if one would not care one bit for the built in effects, plugins and sound libraries of Live? Personally I think they are horrid and the only reason why I am even considering Maschine is that their library is pretty good.

But on the other hand - if you want to use plugins outside what Maschine and Live gives you - you need to map it yourself. So that pretty much puts both on the same square one.

/C
Old 1st April 2015
  #39
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login's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarLofgren View Post
Well that _IS_ true, but what if one would not care one bit for the built in effects, plugins and sound libraries of Live? Personally I think they are horrid and the only reason why I am even considering Maschine is that their library is pretty good.

But on the other hand - if you want to use plugins outside what Maschine and Live gives you - you need to map it yourself. So that pretty much puts both on the same square one.

/C
Well the point is not only the devices but many functions of the program as duplicating scenes, control over clip extention, per step automation, adding racks, tracks, , effects, control over volumes, sends, tempo, fine editing in the step sequencer, etc.

Normally third party effects since they have fewer parameters are easier to map and use with Push. It's the instruments which are a PITA.

I dont use all stock effects and instruments but some are very nice as vasic workhorse stuff: Eq8, the glue, sampler, the delays, utility, dynamic tube, compressor, gate,corpus and all the midi effects.
Old 1st April 2015
  #40
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CarLofgren's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by login View Post
I dont use all stock effects and instruments but some are very nice as vasic workhorse stuff: Eq8, the glue, sampler, the delays, utility, dynamic tube, compressor, gate,corpus and all the midi effects.
Yes the basic stuff is very usable. It's just their instruments and sample libraries I feel zero for. Just boring.

Anyway - I guess my point was that from this perspective (3rd party effects and instruments) there is not much of a difference between using Push or Maschine. You still have to map it manually.

/C
Old 1st April 2015
  #41
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boombapdame's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
I wouldn't recommend Maschine to anyone who intends to use it in a DAW - that's a logistical nightmare. It is not well suited for use within a daw.
@Reverb what would you recommend as I don't intend to cop Push and I'm looking into Maschine.
Old 1st April 2015
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@Reverb what would you recommend as I don't intend to cop Push and I'm looking into Maschine.
I use Maschine standalone and then export all tracks to a daw, where I record audio etc. and . It's not ideal, but it keeps me sane.

You can use Maschine within a Daw - but the setup and actual execution is a huge pain compared to simply using something like Kontakt or any other VI with a regular midi keyboard.
Old 1st April 2015
  #43
Sooo...for someone like myself, who's been using Beatmaker2 to chop samples, then write loops with those samples for arrangement...would Maschine or Push be better? From what I'm reading, it seems Maschine might be better for working w/samples, but Ableton better for working w/loops...but not necessarily integrate so easily? Without derailing the thread too far off course, what would an ideal solution be?
Old 1st April 2015
  #44
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
I wouldn't recommend Maschine to anyone who intends to use it in a DAW - that's a logistical nightmare. It is not well suited for use within a daw.
huh? Maschine works just fine as a VST inside a DAW, and there's a number of different ways to use it as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame View Post
@Reverb what would you recommend as I don't intend to cop Push and I'm looking into Maschine.
see above. actually, check out some videos on YT with someone using Maschine inside a DAW. @Reverb is spreading ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
...You can use Maschine within a Daw - but the setup and actual execution is a huge pain compared to simply using something like Kontakt or any other VI with a regular midi keyboard.
what are you even talking about?
Old 1st April 2015
  #45
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarLofgren View Post
Well that _IS_ true, but what if one would not care one bit for the built in effects, plugins and sound libraries of Live? Personally I think they are horrid and the only reason why I am even considering Maschine is that their library is pretty good.
are you implying that someone might choose Maschine over Ableton based solely on the included library and fx? Ableton can do so much more, worth looking into the actual differences between how the software works. i love Maschine, but use it inside Ableton as i prefer the way it handles audio/routing/etc. Maschine on its own would require a number of workarounds, and there's certain things that just aren't possible (routing MIDI from one track to another, etc).
Old 2nd April 2015
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
huh? Maschine works just fine as a VST inside a DAW, and there's a number of different ways to use it as such.



see above. actually, check out some videos on YT with someone using Maschine inside a DAW. @Reverb is spreading ignorance.



what are you even talking about?
It's not exactly a controversial opinion. this and just about every forum on the internet is filled with posts complaining about using Maschine inside a Daw - because it's a hassle compared to just about any other product.
Old 2nd April 2015
  #47
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jbuonacc's Avatar
as if.

it's usually the same three dudes crying about NI screwing up the MIDI drag n' drop when they went to v2.

Last edited by jbuonacc; 2nd April 2015 at 04:09 AM..
Old 2nd April 2015
  #48
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login's Avatar
I don't think Maschine is that such a PITA inside a DAW, it's just that it creates an additional layer of complexity as you have to deal with 2 workflows, you either like it or not. THat's what Push does better, obviously, it integrates directly with Live.
Old 2nd April 2015
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baskervils View Post
Maschine has awesome sounds, but I have to agree with the other folks on this thread. Maschine's integration with Live has been a tremendous struggle. After testing it during 5 or 6 sessions with a friend, I purchased Push out of frustration. I'm much happier now. I'm going to see if I can use Maschine's sounds with Ableton Live.
Good luck with that as Push is horrible at browsing, period. Your "struggle" was probably typical user error. Maschine's integration with Live is quite seamless actually. Oh, and Maschine is a very flexible tool so there are several different ways to integrate it with DAWs to cater to different workflow preferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baskervils View Post
I'd also like to add that Push is fun as well as functional. It really does work more like external hardware vs. a simple external controller. Recommended for Ableton people.
I find touchAble to be a far superior and comprehensive Live controller than Push. Maschine's Live template is no slouch either.

If one was to compare Maschine (used with its software) and Push (used with its software), the only one that actually works more like external hardwrae vs. a controller would be Maschine, hands down (or hands on if you prefer).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
I wouldn't recommend Maschine to anyone who intends to use it in a DAW - that's a logistical nightmare. It is not well suited for use within a daw.
What utter nonsense.

Maschine works great in a DAW. It's often dismissed by people who don't even realize you can or have the capability to choose which one of several ways it can be used inside DAWs.
Old 2nd April 2015
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarLofgren View Post
But on the other hand - if you want to use plugins outside what Maschine and Live gives you - you need to map it yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarLofgren View Post
I guess my point was that from this perspective (3rd party effects and instruments) there is not much of a difference between using Push or Maschine. You still have to map it manually.
Nope. Not true. One of the advantages of Maschine is that it automatically maps to plugins, including 3rd party effects and instruments. And the way it automaps can be customized too and default settings can be saved.

Push has no automapping at all for third party plugins (unless a plugin happens to have 32 parameters or less). Otherwise you need to first create and save each plugin as an Ableton Rack before you can control it with Push. This is why there are folks who try to sell their plugin browing scripts for Push users on Ableton forums.

Another advantage over Push is that Maschine is obviously tightly integrated with Komplete instruments, with the built-in ability to browse all Komplete presets with categories/tags. The only way to get anywhere close to that with Push is to buy additional third party scripts.
Old 2nd April 2015
  #51
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jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by coven View Post
If you save 3rd party plugins as Maschine modules, then you can browse presets within the Maschine hardware.
could you explain this a bit? not sure if i knew that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coven View Post
Nope. Not true. One of the advantages of Maschine is that it automatically maps to plugins, including 3rd party effects and instruments. And the way it automaps can be customized too and default settings can be saved.
this part too? once you edit the mapping, it'll remember that whenever you drop in an instance? or do you mean save it as an instrument, etc?

that said, i hate auto-mapping. i always re-map stuff anyway, so it takes me a minute to wipe out all that Maschine just mapped "for me".

Quote:
Push has no automapping at all for third party plugins (unless a plugin happens to have 32 parameters or less).
i don't think that's quite true, this can at least be changed up to 128 with those 'back door' configuration (?) text edits.

you go on and on and on about the whole lack of browsing from Push. who gives a ****? it has a million other uses that make it a brilliant controller for Ableton. half the stuff you bring up doesn't even matter to me as a Live user, i'm looking at what it can do.

went with Maschine and APC40mkII myself, but Push looks great for what it is. if i'm going to talk Maschine vs Push, it's going to be about more than just browsing and onboard sampling/edit capabilities. either way, the answer would be BOTH.
Old 2nd April 2015
  #52
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CarLofgren's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
are you implying that someone might choose Maschine over Ableton based solely on the included library and fx? Ableton can do so much more, worth looking into the actual differences between how the software works. i love Maschine, but use it inside Ableton as i prefer the way it handles audio/routing/etc. Maschine on its own would require a number of workarounds, and there's certain things that just aren't possible (routing MIDI from one track to another, etc).
Implying?
Of course that matters. Why wouldn't it?

Now when NI has a sale going on the Studio model, I am tempted. Been watching quite a few videos and it seems it might do what I want (mainly distance myself from the computer).

But I'll keep cool for a few more weeks and see what Frankfurt brings and maybe Ableton have something up their sleeve.

/C
Old 2nd April 2015
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
could you explain this a bit? not sure if i knew that.

this part too? once you edit the mapping, it'll remember that whenever you drop in an instance? or do you mean save it as an instrument, etc?
As of Maschine 2.0, you can just save any plugin preset you want to show up in the user preset area of the browser which can be browsed from the hardware.

There's a "save as default" for plugins. You can save as sound or in a group etc and then open it from the hardware every time you want the plugin to open with those parameters.
Old 2nd April 2015
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverb View Post
It's not exactly a controversial opinion. this and just about every forum on the internet is filled with posts complaining about using Maschine inside a Daw - because it's a hassle compared to just about any other product.
...don't use the general consensus of the Internet as the basis for any fact based on objectivity or expertise - just my $.02...

Maschine inside a DAW for all intents and purpose no different than standalone, with the major difference being that the transport is slaved to the DAW. It makes no sense why it should be any more of a hassle.

As far as Maschine and Push, I see them as two distinct controllers...I use both, and have yet to scratch the surface of either of their enormous potential, and that's what I'm more concerned with - getting better at using each one...
Old 2nd April 2015
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
...don't use the general consensus of the Internet as the basis for any fact based on objectivity or expertise - just my $.02...

Maschine inside a DAW for all intents and purpose no different than standalone, with the major difference being that the transport is slaved to the DAW. It makes no sense why it should be any more of a hassle.

As far as Maschine and Push, I see them as two distinct controllers...I use both, and have yet to scratch the surface of either of their enormous potential, and that's what I'm more concerned with - getting better at using each one...
Which of these is not a hassle compared to simply creating a track and hitting notes on a keyboard :

Using Native Instruments Maschine as a VST in REAPER

maschine learning: using maschine inside sonar

How to Install the MASCHINE Ableton Live Template for Live 9.1 | Knowledge Base | Support

How to Route MASCHINE 2 Sounds to Separate Audio Tracks in Cubase | Knowledge Base | Support
Old 2nd April 2015
  #56
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12tone's Avatar
 

Can't speak about Reaper or Sonar, but I use Maschine with Cubase 8.1 and Live 9, and it's easy as a breeze...

Really, I for the life of me don't get where folks say it's a hassle - it's no more difficult than using the host app in of itself, or for that matter using it standalone, all this without any RTFM either; I found integrating it a piece of cake...
Old 2nd April 2015
  #57
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Will The Weirdo's Avatar
I agree, Maschine is an easy tool to integrate into any DAW, just understand it's abilities and enjoy the fun.
Old 3rd April 2015
  #58
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valis's Avatar
I use Maschine in Logic 9, Logic X, Live 9, Plogue Bidule & occasionally Studio 1 v2. Works fine. I suspect people who are challenged by this are not fully versed in some aspect(s) of midi routing, audio routing and/or how to get 'live' data into a given plugin and routed correctly on the way back out of their chosen DAW.
Old 3rd April 2015
  #59
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Holden Sandman's Avatar
I use both Maschine Studio and Push. They are different beasts with different purposes.

Running Maschine inside Ableton Live 9 works well, using it in Logic X also works well.
Old 3rd April 2015
  #60
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CarLofgren's Avatar
 

Let's put it this way.

If you should pick out the worst (as in one, the _worst_) thing you dislike about NI Maschine or/and Ableton Push - what would that be?

Personally that would be the absence of external groove templates for Maschine, but maybe that's true for Ableton Push as well? There are other things that annoy me with Maschine as well - such as missing round robin functionality.

But neither are what I would call deal-breakers.

What's on the top of your lists?

/C
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