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Potential audio problem with new iMacs
Old 21st November 2013
  #211
Here for the gear
 

Hi everyone

I have the new iMac 3.5 i7 with a Fusion drive and an Apogee Ensemble. Running Logic 9 on Mavericks. I went to the Apogee site and downloaded everything that was appropriate. In their FAQs they state that the Ensemble works with the Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter ( I also needed a Belkin Firewire 400 to 800 cable).. and they are right.
It does work for at least 3 minutes. And then the sound distorts beyond anything remotely usable. It does this time and again after shutting down Logic and starting again.
Hopefully this issue will be resolved by Apogee and Apple very soon because I cannot do any work on the iMac currently, although it's great for anything else.
I have put in a support ticket to Apogee.

So good luck to anyone else who has this issue and they get it right soon. The big disappointment is that WTF were the beta testers doing at both Apogee and Apple?
Old 21st November 2013
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Cook View Post
The big disappointment is that WTF were the beta testers doing at both Apogee and Apple?
+ 1 !

The question is :

Is there people who absolutely don't have any kind of audio problem with their late 2013 iMac ?

Is it possible !?

David (angry mode)
Old 21st November 2013
  #213
Gear Nut
 

I hate to be mean or dwell with pleasure at another's misfortune....But in seeing MAC users suffer it is difficult.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #214
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Why?
Old 22nd November 2013
  #215
Gear Nut
 

Because MAC users believe they are superior to PC users and know everything. But this proves they know little compared to what they think they do.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by computeruser View Post
Because MAC users believe they are superior to PC users and know everything. But this proves they know little compared to what they think they do.
That is quite a broad statement.

Only a small subset of mac users are having issues.

Old 22nd November 2013
  #217
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BobTheDog's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by computeruser View Post
Because MAC users believe they are superior to PC users and know everything. But this proves they know little compared to what they think they do.
Nice to see you feeling superior about other people's misfortune. Even nicer of you to let them know about it. What a swell fella you must be.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #218
Gear Nut
 

I am sorry. Did I hurt your feelings
Old 22nd November 2013
  #219
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by computeruser View Post
Because MAC users believe they are superior to PC users and know everything.
What a load of nonsense.

You aren't trying to troll by any chance, are you?
Old 22nd November 2013
  #220
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valis's Avatar
Keep the topic on track please. Don't feed the trolls, let the mods slap them instead...
Old 22nd November 2013
  #221
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valis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernand View Post
It's pretty obvious that different people are talking about entirely different symptoms here, and yet somehow it's considered the same thing and it gets blamed on Fusion drives and iMac 2013. It's hopeless reading this thread.
THIS, and it's why I have steered clear of this thread. There are multiple issues being mentioned here. With not much tracking of configuration or troubleshooting, just venting and complaining of what us apparently at least 2-3 separate issues: driver updates for Mavericks from some vendors not working well, potential USB3 issues in Haswell Macs (something that has been an issue before), and/or some firmware issue with current iMacs, and possibly some additional underlying issue in Mavericks itself.

I have no clue from reading this thread what is due to what or what I would do in any if these situations besides buying a Thunderbolt adapter.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #222
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There's a thread over at Apple Support where Art of Sound (Nigel) has helped a few people. That's where I learned that, yes, there are multiple problems here with differing solutions. All I know is that my problem (audio dropouts w/ apogee duet 2) was solved completely with the Belkin Thunderbolt Hub. A pricey solution but... alas... I'm working on 3 big projects at the moment and would be in huge trouble if this wasn't working. So for me, $300 is worth it. But honestly speaking, it's a tragedy what's going on here. It's a black eye for Apple in my opinion... I've lost a lot of respect for Apple... they are not living up to their slogan 'it just works.' And the lack of organized communication is beyond disrespectful to their customers.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #223
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The MacBook Air is unaffected? Please say yes.
Old 23rd November 2013
  #224
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I have to agree that there's a lot of different issues here. I'm not sure which one I fall under but one of the studios I work at has an Apogee Symphony I/O so I thought I'd chime in with my findings:

1) iMac (Late 2012 running OSX 10.8.2), has similar issues to the Soundcloud clip that was posted, but only when it runs at 48kHz. 44.1kHz is fine... Haven't tested it at higher sample rates.

2) I have a new MacBook Pro (Late 2013 running 10.9, all SSD), which unfortunately can't be downgraded to 10.8. The Apogee Symphony I/O Maverick drivers play back with constant distortion. It's way worse than the iMac and completely unusable... Even with the Symphony connected through a USB hub.
Old 23rd November 2013
  #225
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I contacted Apple Support a few hours ago and explained the Apogee issue and they were great. They offered a full refund on the iMac and so I took it. I can't wait on a gamble that Apogee will address this anytime soon.
Should they get the problems solved, I will repurchase the iMac and start again. But in the meantime, here's hoping they actually beta test this kind of thing in future. I had contacted Apogee through support tickets and even by telephone but received no replies or emails thus far.
Old 24th November 2013
  #226
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I also have had many issues

brand new Imac 2013 with fusion drive, with symphony plugged into a USB 3 port direct = slow degradation issue

return Imac get new one with 1 TB SSD drive

also purchase Matrox DS1 box.

plug symphony into matrox box YSB 2 port to TB port out to Imac

slow degradation issue is gone YEA!

BUT

now a whole host of other issues. this is on on MAC 10.8.5 also (not mavericks)

1) maestro cannot connect to the Symphony at all, so i cannot control input and output

2) without being connected to a DAW, it resets itself to 0and blasts me out (and even in cubase when i uncheck reset to 0 it does this)

3) in cubase it rarely is recognized as an audio card until i power cycle it, and even when it does get recognized it will lose that connection and pop up an error saying audio card connection has dissapeared

4) because i cannot use maestro the symphony will work great with itunes and youtube and sound great and be output on 1 and 2

however in cubase output 1 and 2 are not working and i cant get sound out of the DAW

i plug anything into the symphony and the inputs are fine (i think)

5) this happened for a while but hasn't returned for a couple days but the unit would literally switch between 96 and 44.1 on its own. and then back.

Today i am going to try ditching the matrox box and plugging direct into a powered USB 2 hub

while this is a nightmare and has given me extended down time i want to say that my experience with apogee support has been good. i have a ticket opened with these issues and i have sent them my profile and they have been responsive on these problems.

i sure hope this gets fixed because i love this thing.

but soon! as i have to record!

the funniest thing, in a horrible sort of way is i went with an Imac because i thought the first generation of the redesigned Mac Pro would be something i would steer clear of till the kinks were worked out ( ihave only used mac pro's for 8 years or more) and that the Imac was a very well known quantity at this point.
Old 24th November 2013
  #227
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trock's Avatar
 

just an update

a friend helped me alot today

we trashed cubase pref's, and some other prefs in the imac.

it seems to be more the apogee drivers at this point

we downloaded reaper and the exact same thing happens in reaper

we selected the apogee as the sound card, set it up 44.1 512 buffer

loaded a short wav file and it payed a few seconds and then all of a sudden the apogee unit switches to 96 automatically, crashes reaper, then reverts back to 44.1 and you have to reboot and start all over

same thing in cubase

i have updated my apogee support ticket
Old 25th November 2013
  #228
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valis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brento View Post
There's a thread over at Apple Support where Art of Sound (Nigel) has helped a few people. That's where I learned that, yes, there are multiple problems here with differing solutions. All I know is that my problem (audio dropouts w/ apogee duet 2) was solved completely with the Belkin Thunderbolt Hub. A pricey solution but... alas... I'm working on 3 big projects at the moment and would be in huge trouble if this wasn't working. So for me, $300 is worth it. But honestly speaking, it's a tragedy what's going on here. It's a black eye for Apple in my opinion... I've lost a lot of respect for Apple... they are not living up to their slogan 'it just works.' And the lack of organized communication is beyond disrespectful to their customers.
If a USB2 hub fixed the problem, then it's an incompatibility between your soundcard's USB connection (chip in the device) and Intel's USB3 implementation. This is a well documented issue with Macbook Pro's & Air's from the last 2 years, which is probably why the answer is so readily available:

USB 3.0: Backwards Compatible in Theory, But Some Audio Drivers Aren't Cooperating - Create Digital Music

USB3 + Apple Update from NI; Your Best Bet -- Wait - Create Digital Music

macbook pro USB 3 audio problem
Old 25th November 2013
  #229
Here for the gear
Just a suggestion to anyone having issues. Go to apple.com/feedback and explain the issue, and link to these forums.

Might be pointless, but it's worth a shot!
Old 26th November 2013
  #230
Gear Head
 

I have a new iMac with Fusion Drive (3Tb) and a RME Fireface UFX. I have the same problem, or, had the same problem. The big problems started when I upgraded to Maverick. I could play for a minute or two, then it started to be distortion. I tried iTunes, Spotify, Pro Tools (9) and the same ****. But yesterday it suddenly worked the whole day! No clicks, pops for 10 hours. Today when I started the computer the problems started again! Now I have the interface connected to a USB 2 hub (before I had the connection direct to the iMac) and it seems to work!

Maybe, maybe that can be a solution...

Regards
Pär

Update

Same **** today so the USB trick didn't work. But yesterday it played without any problems at all. This is strange...
Old 27th November 2013
  #231
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I'm not a regular contributor to these forums, but I have some suggestions. I'm no expert, just commenting on things I've learned from other Mac sources. Just some thoughts:

It's important to understand what "fusion" -is-, and how it's supposed to operate.

Since high-capacity SSD drives are not yet cost-competitive in the marketplace, Apple sought a way to "meld" an SSD and an HDD into what appears to be "a single drive" to the user. Hence, "fusion". Fast, high-capacity storage for the "end user".

At the heart of fusion is something called "CORE Storage". CORE Storage appears to be a set of logical "routines" or algorithms that operate "at the block level" (important to note that this is "block level", and is NOT at "file level"). Fusion attempts to sense which files/blocks are being frequently-accessed, and keeps those on the SSD. Blocks that are less-frequently-accessed get "moved off" to the HDD. So there appears to be some "shifting around" of blocks (which may contain all of a file, or only part of it), back and forth, depending on usage.

Particulary with audio capture, which endeavors to keep a solid stream of data flowing through the interface-computer-drive, I can see where Fusion might start shuffling things around and "interrupt" the smooth flow of data. Particularly if you have things like Spotlight and Time Machine running in the background. Blocks getting moved all over the place, both directions, crossing back and forth.

This is probably an unintended consequence of the fusion technology -- almost as if the CORE Storage routines were being pushed beyond their normal abilities and capabilities.

As some have reported, switching from the Fusion [boot] drive to a non-fusion drive cures the problems, at least in some cases.

So.... what to do if you have a fusion drive? Do you have to return it?

NO -- rather than go through the hassle of returning it, particulary for ANOTHER fusion drive that ends up doing the same thing -- it's possible to "UN-fuse" a fusion drive. In this case, you will then have the separate SSD and HDD drives/volumes on your desktop.

However -- you can't use Disk Utility to UN-fuse a fusion drive. Instead, you have to use commands through Terminal. I've never had need to do this (I steered clear of Fusion), but there are pages on the net that describe how to do it. Just an examination of drive identities and a couple of terminal command entries, and it's done.

However #2 -- if you choose to UN-fuse a fusion drive, you'll lose everything on BOTH drives unless you're backed up. So you need to back up the contents of the fusion drive to an external drive beforehand. I would recommend doing so with a cloning app such as CarbonCopyCloner (free to download and use for 30 days). You will now have a bootable clone drive -- boot from the clone, UN-fuse the internal SSD/HDD drives, then selectively re-install the OS, apps, data, etc. I would suggest OS/apps/user accounts to the SSD, and reserving the HDD for audio data recording.

Apple may be able to "fix" fusion to better handle data-acquisition-intensive tasks like audio recording. Unsure of that yet. I wonder if the video-content-creation folks are having similar problems?

Other thoughts:
- If you have Spotlight enabled, disable it and stop the constant "indexing"
- If you Time Machine running, turn it off (I recommend CarbonCopyCloner instead)
Old 29th November 2013
  #232
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fridberg View Post
I have a new iMac with Fusion Drive (3Tb) and a RME Fireface UFX. I have the same problem, or, had the same problem. The big problems started when I upgraded to Maverick. I could play for a minute or two, then it started to be distortion. I tried iTunes, Spotify, Pro Tools (9) and the same ****. But yesterday it suddenly worked the whole day! No clicks, pops for 10 hours. Today when I started the computer the problems started again! Now I have the interface connected to a USB 2 hub (before I had the connection direct to the iMac) and it seems to work!

Maybe, maybe that can be a solution...

Regards
Pär

Update

Same **** today so the USB trick didn't work. But yesterday it played without any problems at all. This is strange...
Now I think it works! I have a RME Fireface UFX. I changed the sample rate to 44100KHz in Fireface USB Settings. I have played Spotify and iTunes for two days and not any drop or distortion. I have not tested ProTools or Final Cut X yet. But so far...
Old 30th November 2013
  #233
Trp
Gear Addict
 

Yesterday I got a Haswell iMac 3.5 GHz i7, 24GB RAM, 512 GB SSD. Since I am still waiting for the Lynx Thunderbolt card for my Aurora 16 I have been using the iMac with an Apogee One. No complaints here, everything works as it´s supposed to.
Old 30th November 2013
  #234
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I may be fixed, and if so its not really a fix but i will take it for now

I finally ditched the Matrox box and plugged the apogee right into the apple monitor i have. i connected it to one of the powered USB 2 ports and its worked perfectly ever since

so for me, with the first Imac and fusion drive going back, i now have a 1TB SSD drive in this imac but i could NEVER get the apogee to work even with the recommended Matrox TB to USB box (what a waste of 300 bucks more)

but now plugging it into the powered USB port on the apple monitor it works

so far

even plugging it into a Powered USB 2 hub and into the new IMac usb 3 port it didnt work

the monitor is connected to the Imac via TB

what a nightmare this has been, and i still don't consider it fixed since i think the apogee should be able to work with a new imac and alot of pwople wont have the extra monitor

i still have my ticket opened with apogee and they say they are working on a fix with apple

so to me it looks like a couple of issues, the fusion drive possibly and disintegrating audio, and then just plain not working with the USB 3 ports even thru a TB to USB converter box

i will test it more today
Old 30th November 2013
  #235
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Night Stalker's Avatar
 

Trock-

Are you using the fusion drive for audio recording or a separate drive for recording audio?
Old 30th November 2013
  #236
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the first Imac had the 3 TB fusion drive and it had the disentegrating audio issue, where it started off fine and then disentegrated into gabled noise

i sent that imac back and got the 1TB internal SSD and use that now

the disentgrating issue went away with the new imac but i would get tons of issues with the apogee connected to the USB 3 ports or even the TB port thru the matrox box

maestro wouldnt connect at all
the apogee wouldnt show up or if it did it would lose connection and crash all the time

in cubase
logic
reaper

same issue in all

44.1/24 in all

so then i plugged it direct into a powered USB 2 hub and into the USB 3 ports of the Imac - same problems

THEN

in desperation i connected it to the apple monitor i have which has powerered USB 2 ports on it, and it works perfectly

maestro stays connected, audio is pristine, and it hasnt crashed in any daw yet (where i would get an error after a few minutes of play "audio device has been lost")

i think its a combination of issues, at least with the imac and apogee (fusion drive first, and then USB 3 ports second)

i hope this helps

but in reality the apogee, being apple only really needs to work direct into the USB 3 ports, as i think their thunderbridge works ok, direct TB? but alot of people dont have the apple monitor etc

anyway, i am def not convinced i am ok yet

i have alot of testing to do today if i can

hope this helps

i have been down a month plus
Old 30th November 2013
  #237
Tui
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Incredible ineptitude on the parts of Apple and Apogee, from the look of it. Shocking.
Old 30th November 2013
  #238
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Night Stalker's Avatar
 

thanks for the quick response,

So the answer to my original question is that you are only using one hard drive (the internal and only drive) for audio recording, not a 2nd drive dedicated for audio.

I have been carefully reading all forums with the iMac 17 fd situation for the past week now before I pull the trigger
Old 30th November 2013
  #239
Here for the gear
 

Hi everybody,

does anyone know if it works with iMac SSD and Apogee Duet Firewire with Thunderbolt adaptor ? Does anyone have this configuration ?
I need a new mac for big audio projects and can't wait anymore (or just one or two weeks) : there is still no fix !
I wonder if I will not buy a mac mini with SSD...

Thank you !
Old 30th November 2013
  #240
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TUI - yes, i couldn't believe it. to be fair i think other hardware manufactures are also having issues but i was stunned that it didn't seem anything worked with the top of the line hardware company who only supports apple

in their defense they are very responsive on the support ticket. but still no answers and 2 imac's in

@ night stalker - yes i use 1 internal SSD drive. i DO have 3 external HD's for storage - 2 thunderbolt connected ones and 1 USB 3 but they are not running the applications, just libraries and storing projects
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