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Best Plug-In Mastering Limiter??
Old 28th June 2006
  #1
Lives for gear
 
jdjustice's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Best Plug-In Mastering Limiter??

I have demoed the McDSP MC2000 and was a bit disappointed (I love their other stuff). The Sony Oxford Limiter OTOH is pretty great. Then there is the Roger Nichols FINIS which I found was acceptable but not as cool as the Sony.

I want to demo the Waves L3 but the bastards in customer service at Waves won't let me because I previously demoed a V5 product of theirs. Is the L3 worth the $450 native that I would have to pay or would I receive it and miss the money??

JSYN, I don't own any Waves stuff excepting the SSL bundle which I love. Is it worth it getting a bundle with a bunch of plugs I'll never use just for the L1/L2/L3?? (and perhaps RenComp)??

Any experience and advice appreciated,

J.D.
Old 28th June 2006
  #2
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by-tor's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I am WAY into the Massey L2007 right now! Very Cool. Plus...the price is right!!
Old 28th June 2006 | Show parent
  #3
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Ruudman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yep. A good AND cheap way is:

Massey Limiter into Izotope's MBT+ dither.


ruudman
Old 29th June 2006 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
I have the MC2000, which is a great multiband compressor. I'm not sure you can use it as mastering brickwall limiter though. For me the Sony is the best, but close behind and at a fraction of the cost is the Massey Limiter.
Old 29th June 2006
  #5
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdjustice
I have demoed the McDSP MC2000 and was a bit disappointed (I love their other stuff). The Sony Oxford Limiter OTOH is pretty great. Then there is the Roger Nichols FINIS which I found was acceptable but not as cool as the Sony.

I want to demo the Waves L3 but the bastards in customer service at Waves won't let me because I previously demoed a V5 product of theirs. Is the L3 worth the $450 native that I would have to pay or would I receive it and miss the money??

JSYN, I don't own any Waves stuff excepting the SSL bundle which I love. Is it worth it getting a bundle with a bunch of plugs I'll never use just for the L1/L2/L3?? (and perhaps RenComp)??

Any experience and advice appreciated,

J.D.
The L3 is GARBAGE, and sounds worse than the L2. With a proper monitoring system you can hear the negative (IE BROKEN GLASS effect) transient disortion on some music at as little as -1 db of attn.

The Sony stuff is really nice, but don't have access to it at my project studio (running Nuendo). The Roger Nichols stuff is really a joke as its the Elemental Audio line of stuff. Its way over priced for exactly the same sound quality as before, I won't support that. Already got the EE plugs....

I'd save your money, the only waves product worth buying is the SSL stuff (which you already have). But the whole 'buying an SSL plugin' always seems so ghey to me. Just hyped names, but the sound is pretty good and nicely compariable in some respects to 'that sound'. The funny thing is about the Waves stuff I had so much trouble trying to demo the Gold Bundle I had to find a crack to try them out. I eventualy got the Platinum bundle and after a year or so feel ripped off with the amount of money I paid for such lackluster unmusical plugins. The Rcomp & L2 did see a lot of uses though. You got the SLL, stick with that.

The limiter I've had success with for both mixing and mastering on a digital VST platform is the Elephant2. It devistated all other VST and Waves L1,2,3 types.
www.voxengo.com Their other plugins are so-so.

Ruudman has the right idea, Massy Limiter into Izotop's MBdither great como.

Good luck on your search mang!
Pm
Old 29th June 2006 | Show parent
  #6
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
Wow, nice to find somebody else who can hear the shattered glass effect of the L3 vs. the L2.

I like the L2 and think you'll be hard pressed to find a better digital limiter, when used conservatively. Can be very transparent.

If you're really into smashing the L2 could be part of the chain but not the only part.
Old 29th June 2006 | Show parent
  #7
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Is this shattered glass effect on both the L-3 multimaximizer AND L-3 ultramaximizer?
THANKS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt
Wow, nice to find somebody else who can hear the shattered glass effect of the L3 vs. the L2.

I like the L2 and think you'll be hard pressed to find a better digital limiter, when used conservatively. Can be very transparent.

If you're really into smashing the L2 could be part of the chain but not the only part.
Old 29th June 2006 | Show parent
  #8
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Albert's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The PSP MasterComp is a very transparent mastering limiter.
Old 29th June 2006 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
another vote for the Massey. it has replaced Maxim around
here. i demoed the Sony and loved the hell out of it, but
as someone else just said, for the money it's Massey all
the way.

marty.
Old 29th June 2006 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
lordnielson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Some like the Timeworks limiter. Packs a punch.
Old 29th June 2006 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I have never heard any destroyed glass in the L3, I know exactly what distortion type you mean. I can honestly say that the Waves L3 beats everything I've heard in limiter plug-ins, the dithering is good too. I'm using the L3 multimaximizer only and in my opinion this effect beats both the L1 and the L2. I've compared it to Sonic TimeWorks, L2, L1, Izotope Ozone and a few others. Overall I'm a bit sceptic about doing limiting with software. I would like to try something like a pair of Cranesong Trakkers. But I need to point out that my studio monitors are only Mackie HR 824, so it might be that I would notice destroyed glass when using the L3 with high end monitors.
Old 29th June 2006 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
The L3 is by far the best limiter I have ever used. If you want it louder than L2 with less distortion the L3 MultiMax. is the best. I hate WUP buy they have a winner here. I would like to see the new MCDSP limiter go as soon as the demo comes online.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #13
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I assume you know what you are talking about, I have a favor to ask - can you or someone else who has the same claim, post an MP3 or a short wave file showing this shattered glass effect. I have failed to hear it. And no one else hears it either, whether headphones or my Hafler TRM8.1 monitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt
Wow, nice to find somebody else who can hear the shattered glass effect of the L3 vs. the L2.

I like the L2 and think you'll be hard pressed to find a better digital limiter, when used conservatively. Can be very transparent.

If you're really into smashing the L2 could be part of the chain but not the only part.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #14
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norman_nomad's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Rock = Timeworks

Indie/acoustic = UAD Mastering Limiter

I think the UAD sounds "better" than the Timeworks and does a good job at holding onto the low end.. but for sheer volume and transient integrity it's hard to beat the Timeworks.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #15
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Norman - do you mean the UAD Mastering limiter or their multiband limiter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman_nomad
Rock = Timeworks

Indie/acoustic = UAD Mastering Limiter

I think the UAD sounds "better" than the Timeworks and does a good job at holding onto the low end.. but for sheer volume and transient integrity it's hard to beat the Timeworks.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #16
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norman_nomad's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3
Norman - do you mean the UAD Mastering limiter or their multiband limiter?
I have the UAD Mastering Limiter... I demo'd the multiband and also thought it sounded really good... it basically had the same characteristic of the Mastering Limiter but in a multiband format. I don't use multibands that often however so I didn't buy it.

If you're NOT going for max volume, I really like the UAD, but if you're trying to push things the UAD will start to choke up and sound "splatty".
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #17
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thermos's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I still think the L2 narrows the stereo image too much, and makes things lose depth even when doing only 1 db. I hate it. I think the L3 keeps the stereo image and depth much better, but isn't totally accurate with the way it deals with the low end. I thought the massey one wasn't quite as good as the L3 unfortunately, spitty and small sounding. I think my fav so far is the uad one.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #18
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
It seems like the only one that does not have a negative statement is the Voxengo and it is actually inexpensive. Sounds like something that must be tried!

Any other Voxengo comments (elephant, I believe is the limiter.)

THANKS,
AB
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #19
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Eh, maybe the broken glass is a bit of an overstatement but I stand by what I said earlier that the L3 is very poor. I used it for about a year or so and a small part of me said there is something left to be desired. It wasn't until I heard a mix with the L3 on a pair of TADs with custom JBL horns @ 110 db. Those things are so freaking accurate they are rated at about 1 watt per meter with very very little distortion. The mix hurt my ears so bad I had to TURN IT down 6 decibals in order for it to be listenable.

Think about that with electronic music in a club, or loud rock music. Ouch...

Then I went back and played the exact same mix minus the L3, and without limiting. Strangly enough I could turn it up more without the limiter.

You limit stuff with an L3 your gonna have to turn it down. Using a good digital native chain like a PSP master comp mixed thru it, Waves LMB with a light touch, Algorhymix Qs, and an Elephant2 with 2-3 db attn with yield far more musical results than just running it hot into an L3.

Its all up to you alls ears, but I like to be able to run my **** really hot and sound like an experience. The l3 closes the stereo field and brittles the highs in a very unnatural and unmusical way to me.

My opinion goes to a Voxengo Elephant 2 every time. I know a few top rated electronic music producers that personaly prefer that for phat sounding musical listening.



Game on!
Pete
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #20
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks Peter. That is very informative. But frankly, since you compared the L3 to "no L3", who is to say that that mix would havbe also been worse with the L2 or something else with those "TADS?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter martin
Eh, maybe the broken glass is a bit of an overstatement but I stand by what I said earlier that the L3 is very poor. I used it for about a year or so and a small part of me said there is something left to be desired. It wasn't until I heard a mix with the L3 on a pair of TADs with custom JBL horns @ 110 db. Those things are so freaking accurate they are rated at about 1 watt per meter with very very little distortion. The mix hurt my ears so bad I had to TURN IT down 6 decibals in order for it to be listenable.

Think about that with electronic music in a club, or loud rock music. Ouch...

Then I went back and played the exact same mix minus the L3, and without limiting. Strangly enough I could turn it up more without the limiter.

You limit stuff with an L3 your gonna have to turn it down. Using a good digital native chain like a PSP master comp mixed thru it, Waves LMB with a light touch, Algorhymix Qs, and an Elephant2 with 2-3 db attn with yield far more musical results than just running it hot into an L3.

Its all up to you alls ears, but I like to be able to run my **** really hot and sound like an experience. The l3 closes the stereo field and brittles the highs in a very unnatural and unmusical way to me.

My opinion goes to a Voxengo Elephant 2 every time. I know a few top rated electronic music producers that personaly prefer that for phat sounding musical listening.



Game on!
Pete
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Steven Massey limiter..Periodthumbsup
hate the waves stuff.ditched it six months agostike
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Guru
 
elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Loving the Massey limiter. Best plugin limiter to date and been through most of them.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #23
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
The reason why the L3 sounds worse than the L2 (I have both, and yes it's the same for the UltraMaximizer and the MultiMaximizer, since the UltraMaximizer is basically a "preset" MultiMaximizer) is that despite its linear phase crossovers it has a very high amount of crossmodulation.

If you spend a little time on Google you can find some tests with various limiters including the L2 and L3, where you visually can see the amount of distortion introduced by the L3 is massively worse than the L2 and several other limiters.

To my ears this causes an unnatural, distorted and skewed sound image which sounds overly processed and annoys my ears to no end. Shattered glass I guess.

While the idea of the intelligent peak limiting mixer with its relationship between peak detection and attenuation different from conventional multiband splitting due to the summing and distribution algorithm, it fails to deliver on the promised high fidelity.

I believe Waves are well aware of these side effects but either couldn't fix it or chose to ignore it as a functionality trade off.

I believe you can get much better results without the L3 by using linear phase multiband compression and wideband limiting as found in the L2. I've only once used the L3 over the L2 on a master.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Nut
 
llarena's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
best Mastering Plug-in??? To me Brad Blackwood.

Without him:

LinMB here + T-racks soft clipp.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
AlΓ©cio Costa's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes, to me is Brad Blackwood too.

But talking about plug-ins, I do not have prejudice towards old plugs that do fine: TC Master X ( 3+5). ]
Use the 5 badn model, even if you decide to use lesser bands.
I imagine the TCΒ΄s MD3/MD4 are much better, but I do not have them here.
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
DivineMusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
UAD Mastering Limiter and Kjaerhus audio mpl-1/pro

i'm not a mastering engineer but i really like both of these limiter.. sound far better than waves l2 and l3 imo. haven't used the massey
mpl-1 is very transparent and actually gives me more volume than a few songs i send to mastering engineers.. but this isn't loudness wars...

i like PSP mastercomp too, but just to control the mix(1-2db max)... not really as a limiter
Old 30th June 2006 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
defjamm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt
If you spend a little time on Google you can find some tests with various limiters including the L2 and L3, where you visually can see the amount of distortion introduced by the L3 is massively worse than the L2 and several other limiters.

To my ears this causes an unnatural, distorted and skewed sound image which sounds overly processed and annoys my ears to no end. Shattered glass I guess.

While the idea of the intelligent peak limiting mixer with its relationship between peak detection and attenuation different from conventional multiband splitting due to the summing and distribution algorithm, it fails to deliver on the promised high fidelity.

I believe Waves are well aware of these side effects but either couldn't fix it or chose to ignore it as a functionality trade off.

I believe you can get much better results without the L3 by using linear phase multiband compression and wideband limiting as found in the L2. I've only once used the L3 over the L2 on a master.
http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/

btw i fully agree
the l3 is more impressive on paper than actually in action.

for clean stuff the new kjaerhus one is great, elephant can be clean too and the uad one is great on acoustic stuff.

for heavy transient stuff no limiter at all tutt
Old 1st July 2006 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Guru
 
elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by defjamm
http://home.casema.nl/ajohnston/limiting/

btw i fully agree
the l3 is more impressive on paper than actually in action.

for clean stuff the new kjaerhus one is great, elephant can be clean too and the uad one is great on acoustic stuff.

for heavy transient stuff no limiter at all tutt
Hmm, Elephant is very impressive according to the graphs and relative to Waves limiters. I like what I "see".
Old 1st July 2006 | Show parent
  #29
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Is the voxengo elephant somewhere around $70? Sounds like it is worth buying just to A-B it with the L3 and see if anyone here can tell the different.

Please tell me how to make the comparision fair if anyone has any ideas (i.e. same db of limiting, etc.)

THANKS,
AB
Old 1st July 2006 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Tone Laborer's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Download the free demo at Voxengo. They actually do work, unlike most demos. (I use SX)

I have the L1, and I auditioned the Uad PL for the 2 week period. I ended up buying the Elephant and Soniformer bundle. For most of my music-- which is cleaner guitars, pianos, wiggling sawblade, rainstick, it seemed the most transparent.

The UAD PL was also very nice and seemed to soften, just slightly. But I'm buying the Fairchild next.

Soniformer is one of the best kept secrets out there, for home and project users. I find it to be an ABSOLUTELY AMAZING mastering plug. It basically is a tool to help you minimize the anomalies of your imperfect room and speakers, and help the mix translate.

Demo the two of them. It's like a hooker, looking is free. And don't forget the Curve EQ.
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