i think logic has actually gotten better or at least more "normal". it was and is a very abnormal software. i hope it becomes a functional freak as apposed to the buggy freak it has been. the software is a little too far outside of the box.

certain things are just plain weird for example:

1)no tap tempo???
2)the whole non grid editing concept as the only option. don't tell me the marque does it.
3)no functioning punch in/out functioning. you can do it, but you can't playback the track you are punching into up to the punch point. wtf.
4)no layered takes.
5)grouping is half baked. you can't group and move tracks in the arrange window. you can't rec enable a group. can't group solo. can't group edit the track. not sure why they even call it group.
6)cut and paste is very strange.

...and on and on.

i really hope apple makes things like this work in a "normal" fashion. there is a reason that all of the other applications do things in a standardized way. stay freaky with all the other bells and whistles not the main functions.

Nope. The German crew is with us to stay, in Germany. Apple Germany is an official, permanent Apple facility, in what was previously Emagic in Rellingen, Germany.

I agree, I'd prefer nobody ever charge for tech support, that it's free with the license (purchase) of the software, for the life of the software.

Sadly, few do it that way.

For the record, Apple's policy isn't as draconian as "$200 no matter what per call." I believe you get 90-days of free calling. After that, if you call for tech support, your call will be free if:
1) You are calling about a verifiable and reproducable bug in the software
2) they can't help you with your problem

Otherwise, you'll be charged $200 for the call.

If a user sees themselves needing more help, they can buy AppleCare Pro Audio support for $399. This covers unlimited calls, 7 days a week, and I believe connects directly to the Expert Support Team (at least in the USA and Germany), and a significant number of these guys are still from the old Emagic support team, so they know they're stuff (unlike the general help line people, as others have noted).

Again, I'd rather it be free than $399, but as professional support packages go, its certainly worth considering if you are making money professionally from Logic and make three or more support calls per year. Hell, if you make 10 calls after the free 90 days, that's $40 a call. I'd still prefer free, but that's certainly not a forturne.

Plus, lets face it--there are a ton of resources on Logic out there! Obviously, as a Logic author, I'm a big fan of books. I wrote a couple, the Logic Training Guides are good books, and I believe Stephen Bennet now has one that I've not seen yet, but knowing him its bound to be very good (and probably more readily available in the UK).

But there are very active Internet groups such as the YahooGroup called the Logic Users Group (LUG) of which I'm a co-moderator (home page at http://www.logic-users.org). There's also a German forum, Apple's own (free) discussion forum for Logic, and this very board.

Finally, Apple has been taking a very welcome and active role in supporting in-person user groups around the USA. Los Angeles and New York have very active LUGs, and the other week was the first meeting of the Orange County Logic Pro Users Group (Costa Mesa, California), and Apple sent not only a box of goodies to give away, but Bill Burgess, Apple Logic Marketing Manager and VIP Support was one of the speakers.

If there is not a user group in your area yet, start one! Write to Apple and let them know you're interested, and keep going from there. At the OC meeting, we had 50+ people, from seasoned studios pros to a pro pianist who bought her first Mac and Logic. I know that one is starting soon in Seattle. It's a great way to meet other Logic users, get on Apple's radar (we were told by Bill that bugs/requests from groups are always taken more seriously than isolated reports), and to build an in-person support network for when you need help or just want to hang out with other Logic users. And its free.

I don't mean to sound like a shill for Apple--as I said, I also think support should be free, and I have complained directly to Apple employees and managers up the chain. But its not as bad as some would make it out to be, and there are free options for support--that can be fun, to boot.

Orren

Logic has tap tempo, it's just unassigned to a key.

1) Open Key Command Window (option+K)
2) In the search window, type "tap tempo"
3) Assign a key to Tap Tempo

Its a bit obscure tap tempo isn't automatically assigned to a key, but I think they assume that you don't want to tap tempo from the QWERTY keyboard, but your MIDI controller/control surface, so you can assign the key to your CS. I don't remember if any of the CS plug-ins have tap tempo assigned automatically, they might.

Assuming that you mean you want Logic to automatically snap all your movements and edits on the Arrange window to the grid, set the Snap pull-down menu (first pull down menu at the top right of the Arrange) to whatever grid you'd like. You have six grid options.

Yup, these suck. But you can group edit on the Arrange to some degree. If you check group edit, all regions in the grouped tracks will be selected, and you can trim, move, etc. all of them at once.

Orren

I have no idea what you mean by this. Cutting and pasting in Logic is no different than cutting and pasting in Cubase, DP, etc. Select a region, cut. Move the song position line to where you want to paste the region, paste. Same universal key commands as well (Command+X = cut, command+V = paste).

Orren

I was under the impression that new owners Yamaha were still happy with their 2005 purchase.


[And now that I've read the whole thread, I can see I'm not the only one under that general impression. heh ]

If I were Yamaha I'd be demanding a refund

"Assuming that you mean you want Logic to automatically snap all your movements and edits on the Arrange window to the grid, set the Snap pull-down menu (first pull down menu at the top right of the Arrange) to whatever grid you'd like. You have six grid options."

i am actually referring to grid based selecting. like you can kinda almost sorta do with the marquee.

"Logic has tap tempo, it's just unassigned to a key.

1) Open Key Command Window (option+K)
2) In the search window, type "tap tempo"
3) Assign a key to Tap Tempo"

will check this. didn't function in previous versions.

"I have no idea what you mean by this. Cutting and pasting in Logic is no different than cutting and pasting in Cubase, DP, etc. Select a region, cut. Move the song position line to where you want to paste the region, paste. Same universal key commands as well (Command+X = cut, command+V = paste)."


i will get back to you with a clear explanation of what is strange. i have not thought about it recently because i have resorted to select, split by locator and the option drag as an alternate method. not to mention pasting will royally screw up your automation as does option dragging if you hit yes to copy track automation.

tap tempo...i remember now. it sucks. like you said opens with a key command only and then you can only tap using a midi keyboard. me no likey AT ALL.

Couldent be more true. I had a routing problem that seemed to be a software glitch after upgrading to 7 (paying money to do so) and the pricks on the other end wanted $200 to answer the question they thought they MIGHT have the answer to, as they put it.

Oh well. It's a tool. I use it less and less; mainly just for mixing now. Being treated so horribly by apple is what pushed me to ableton for writing songs.

I have to add to others hear I use logic as a writing/composing tool. I think a compared to my Protools rig which is about 50 times the cost I get 50 times the results in PT.
I would never expect a $1000.00 application to yield results of a tool that costs $50,000.00. Logic is what is I still think it's pretty darn good deal for 1K.
It's not perfect but then again ...what is?

TRS,

You are comparing the full hardware HD Protools system to the Logic software. Different things, really, although software wise... as a general consensus (and also my opinion), Logic does generally everything that PT does, some a little bit more, and some in a different way... except the manipulation of raw audio. Pro tools is just easier to edit on. I use PT and Cooledit to slice things up, and Logic and Ableton to have more fun with midi.

i love logic, been using it since 5.5 but its the best program to get your ideas down quickly or whatever you want really. personally i mix everything after logic in protools, just cause i like the routing and simplicity, but logic can get everything done on its own. plus i personally think the sound engine is the best out there! although im talking about PT LE not HD

either way, i think logic 7.2 is solid

and as far as intermediate / pro differences with logic express and logic pro, there is very little difference in my eyes, and its mainly the editor in the sampler (get kontakt or use recycle) and you dont get to use all the new soft synths and plug ins, either way if you know how to use the software, it doesnt matter. i think logic express is about 98% the same as logic 5, minus the exs24 / exsp24 issue.


either way


RTFM!!!!

I use both Logic and ProTools everyday and must say the current build of Logic is Rock Solid (actually since 7.1). I have it installed on multiple workstations and it's identical on all. i once used it just for composing and now i'm using it for tracking and final mixes. ProTools on the other hand is a little more temperamental these days and although it's still a fairly solid app i now reach for Logic if i have a very important job in a quick turn around. i know this contradicts most peoples experience. Customer support on the other hand - i just can't tell you, i've never used it for Logic.

No. Those who where using Logic on PC did or, abandon Logic completely, stayed on it on the last PC version or indeed moved to Mac...

Roger

I think 8 will be a moment of truth. Apple had some much time to develop something really killing cool to come out in 8. It should be something that can blow away PT and Nuendo, so that audio editting, midi and the great plugs are something very, very intuitive with all the pro-feature right there to use all in a great nice interface. And, fully integrated in the Apple hardware. If, on the other hand that 8 release is not so impressive, I wouldn't bet anymore on Logic, but straight on Steinberg (which I don't see being bought buy Apple)...

Roger

for the record ive tracked and produced EP's, Lp's and demos on logic, even at 5.5 and must say its never given me any hassle what so ever.

although editing in protools is a much better experience heh




grr editing

Roger,

You misunderstood his question. He was not referring to users, he was referring to coders--those who are "working on" developing Logic.

And he is correct, the same people who developed Logic as Emagic are still developing Logic.

Orren

Oeps, I did...

Roger

these threads always yield the same results:

1)logic is kinda buggy right now, but most users really like it.
2)logic is not very good/fast for audio editing.
3)logic is great for composing. very quick.
4)pro tools is great for audio, but can be a money pit.

we all are really hoping 8 brings some solidy and improvements. i think we will be seeing stacked tracks and better audio editing in 8. i have heard from a high up source that apple is working on transitioning the software to the u.s. team. it also seems obvious that the little updates don't represent much of an effort by apple. hopefluly the efforts are being put into an overhauled version 8. apple is very secretive so who knows.

Not true at all.

Orren

you cut off the first part of my quote...

"i have heard from a high up source that apple is working on transitioning to u.s..."

are you saying that i have not heard this, or that you have information otherwise, or that my source is lying or incorrect?

wondering how you know this not to be true?

oh, and orren i found your books to be helpful in learning logic. nice work.

Yamaha already bought Steinberg.

Orren is correct, and I can verify this too. The "US Team" IS the original Emagic team. Gerhard Lengling, Chris Adam, Markus Fritze etc etc etc, the only difference is that many of them now live in Cupertino instead of Germany but it's the same people.

Back in the pre-Logic 6 days, I was one of the (several) freelance writers who worked for Emagic, helping write what would become the Logic 6 addendum, before Logic 6 hit the shelves. I haven't worked for them since, but I do keep in touch. The developers I know still in Germany have told me directly and personally at different points this year that they are remaining in Germany.

I'm definitely not saying you didn't hear this, or that your source was willfully lying. But keep in mind that "trying to transition" can mean a number of things. It can mean anything from a manager saying "gosh, I wish that all our audio developers were working in Cupertino, do you think we can bring them here?" to Apple Cupertino unilaterally deciding on closing the Apple Germany office and saying any developer who doesn't move to Cupertino will need to find a new job (which does happen, sadly. And in those cases, many developers do find other work.

I think your source simply interpreted the wish of Apple Cupertino--to have all their developers under one roof--as a plan in progress, when it's really not. And--as Kestral pointed out--there are members of the Emagic team who have chosen to work in the Cupertino office. So it's possible that your source interpreted the fact that maybe 25% of the original Emagic team chose to move to the USA, that was sign of an active transition, instead of simply the choice of certain developers.

That's not to say that Apple Cupertino may not be offering incentives to anyone in Apple Germany willing to relocate--maybe they are, I really don't know. It certainly makes sense that they'd like as many Emagic developers in Cupertino who are willing to relocate. And there are many ways to "transition"--as the decades roll on and developers retire, for example, they could hire new developers to work in Cupertino, so the "transition" might take 30 years! But those current developers who wish to remain in Germany are under no pressure to relocate. Its more important to Apple to keep the team, then move the team.

BTW--not all the developers in other application teams are in Cupertino, either. I believe some members of the CoreAudio team, for example, are spread in different parts of the USA.

Thanks!

Orren

Maybe i am missing something, but I am REALLY stuck on anything asides the simplest audio editing in Logic.

Here's what I'd do in protools for editing 12 tracks of drum audio (haven't done this in a while, so bear with me in case i forget something crucial):

1) Group all 12 tracks into an edit group
2) Pull open the Edit window
3) Zoom in pretty close on mainly the room/overheads, so I can see the main transients
4) Make slices prior to each hit while in Slip mode (or less depending how ****ty the drummer... perhaps just the kick and snare hits?)
5) Go to the end of the song, and starting with the last ones, slide them into place in grid mode (sometimes tweaking their position in slip mode for feel)
6) Ther would likely be little gaps between some of them, so i pull out the region length tool, and pull out the regions if needed, and do some quick crossfades as well
7) Consolodate selection

This would get it done on ALL of the tracks at once. Of course i'd do the standard things like make sure the phase was set (if that wasn't done right in tracking!), etc... but that's just the editing.

Vocal comping would be similar, with the cutting and all, but then i'd just drag the pieces between tracks, quick crossfades, and boom. Done.

In logic, this whole process baffles me. I need like a video, or something that shows someone really doing vocal and drum comping/editing on an artist that is REALLY ****ty and needs lots of editing.

Tibbon, that's why I mentioned I wished Logic had playlists, sample accurate arrange page and Beat Detective like functions. Doing what you outlined is a major pain in the rear end in Logic.

Tibbon,
I think that kind of editing or tracking for that matter is not very functional in logic. i am grudgingly buying a protools rig this weekend so that i can do that kind of editing and tracking outside of logic. I am going to try doing my final mixing in logic though, because i am againgst digidesigns proprietary plug-ins. My absolute biggest problem with logic will be the erratic and destructive automation copying functions. I have no idea how to work around this.

edgar rothermich has some excellent personal logic manuals online. check out the last 3 pages of his automation manual. it explains very clearly what the problems are with logic's automation copying. orren, if you haven't checked out this guy as a reference, i would highly recommend doing so. he is very clear and concise. i think his interpretations of logic functionality and dysfunctionality are dead on.

http://homepage.mac.com/edgarrotherm...alManuals.html

so here is my follow up on the cut and paste weirdness i was talking about with regards to regions.

orren:
"I have no idea what you mean by this. Cutting and pasting in Logic is no different than cutting and pasting in Cubase, DP, etc. Select a region, cut. Move the song position line to where you want to paste the region, paste. Same universal key commands as well (Command+X = cut, command+V = paste)."

i am referring to the way logic pastes regions when you have a track record enables or selected. this may seem like a small inconvenience, but it can waste 10 seconds or so with each cut and paste if i am playing a midi instrument and editing at the same time and dealing with 30 or more tracks. this is the common state of my work so this is a problem for me. anyway here is the deal.

if cutting and pasting from a single track, you have to click/select the track you want to paste to in order for the region to paste to it's original track. this is not at all like most sequencers.

copy and paste with a different track selected:
http://www.randomcubes.com/gearslutz/select1.png

http://www.randomcubes.com/gearslutz/paste%201.png

I hope this makes sense. in order to paste a region that i just selected i have to manually select it's track first otherwise it will end up on top of my record enable track.

not to mention, i have no idea why i would be allowed to paste an audio region to a midi track.

Wow--I have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, let alone playing a MIDI instrument while editing! Then again, I'm a guitarist, so even if I'm using my guitar as a MIDI controller, I still need both hands on it.

Anyway, that's not to say that your complaint isn't legit. I want to understand it better.

I'm unclear on what it is you want instead of the current behavior. If you have a region in your clipboard, how is Logic supposed to know which track you want to paste to if you don't select it? Context menus? Logic doesn't have the Paste option in a context menu, so you unfortunately can't just right-click and paste.

When you use the pencil tool to create a region, even if you are on an audio track, you have created a MIDI region. So you actually moved a MIDI region from an audio track to a MIDI track. The easiest way to verify that is to double click one of those regions on an audio track--it will open a MIDI editor.

The reason that audio tracks can have MIDI regions on them is to contain hyperdraw data for Region Based Automation.

Orren

i believe all other sequencers do paste contextually. in pro tools for example you select whatever regions on whatever tracks and then things simply get pasted to the tracks they were taken from, just moved to the new song position selected. you will notice that if you copy and paste regions from multiple tracks at the same time then logic DOES in fact contextualize the paste. it doesn't matter what track is selected.
yeah i don't know how others work, but i will be editing multiple tracks at once, maybe fine tuning a keyboard part and tightening up the corresponding drum track as i am going. this is when it becomes a drag.

Also orren, I just remembered another cut and paste problem. there is no way that i know of to use cut and paste in the matrix editor, which is where is do all my midi editing. grid based programs let you see the notes and select a bar, copy, and then paste to another bar. this doesn't work in the matrix. if i select notes in a bar, move to the next bar and paste, it will paste the first selected note at beat one even if that note was cut from beat two. instead you have to use option drag, which is a little slower for me, and less accurate. or to do it in the arrange window and not see the notes clearly. these types of things make cut and paste an unused function for me, which is crazy since these are normally my most used keys in editors.

extra mouse clicks and slower selecting are no big deal when based on one or two operations, but in the course of a session these extra 5 seconds here and there kill me. when a drummer says cool, let's just punch that fill. it takes me 30 seconds to do it as apposed to 10 seconds in pro tools. and after i do that work-around punch my session has extra tracks cluttering the screen just for a simple punch. i know people get into using folders for this, but i don't understand how you can really comp takes between folders. of course grouping is buggy so that doesn't help.

this conversation got me checking out copy paste limitations so here another huge problem. when working with track based automation i need to move automation from one bar to another. cut/paste doesn't work and option drag does not foll bar snap mode. any ooption dragging is not accurate. option dragging underlying regions is not a workaround, because it won't move automation between regions. in checking this out i am starting to think i can't really do serious mix automation in logic.