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How far to Digi 003, Logic 8 etc. and what's the next quality level?
Old 26th May 2006
  #1
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jazztone's Avatar
 

Question How far to Digi 003, Logic 8 etc. and what's the next quality level?

I am a Logic user who has friends that are still usig ADATS and such. Several are ready to get on board and I'm there go to guy for system choices. In these guys cases it means buying Computers, AD/DA , Front end etc. Most already have mics and mid level outboard. I can't help feeling the Digi 003's and Logic 8's of the world are just around the corner. I personally think that Logic with a complete clean up and revision would be the best DAW on the market. It needs: To have the premiere sound engine of all DAWS
good enough to even intrigue and impress the analog guys. Also address the editing needs of the Protools users. Third, add a feature that let's you use the sequencer in pattern mode as well like a MPC. Here come Thousands of new users. Imagine being able to redo your arrangment just by assigning it in sections and then changing the section order in a list. This would allow you to use it like any drum machine or sequencer. Maybe even make that available with skins that look like ASR-10, SP-1200, MPC-3000 and more importantly sound and work like them. Here comes more thousands of new users and migraters from other DAWS.

What do you guys think? Nice changes coming in 12 months worth waiting for or just buy everything now? Yes UAD-1 cards are great but these guys don't know about latency. And plus something better has got to be coming than the current UAD.
Old 26th May 2006
  #2
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azwun25's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazztone
Imagine being able to redo your arrangment just by assigning it in sections and then changing the section order in a list. This would allow you to use it like any drum machine or sequencer. .
this has already been done in Cubase SX3
Old 27th May 2006
  #3
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by azwun25
this has already been done in Cubase SX3
And Nuendo.
Old 27th May 2006
  #4
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jdjustice's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazztone
I can't help feeling the Digi 003's and Logic 8's of the world are just around the corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazztone
What do you guys think? Nice changes coming in 12 months worth waiting for or just buy everything now?
I am guessing that a 003 is probably around the corner; Digi started offering "discount" deals on the 002 and now bundles a lot of extra plugins with the regular non-"factory bundle"... these are signs that there is probably a 003 in the works.

It may be 12 months though.... can you wait??

As far as Logic Pro goes, there is so much functionality in that program already; it will be interesting to see if they can actually improve it with v8.


J.D.
Old 27th May 2006
  #5
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdjustice
I am guessing that a 003 is probably around the corner; Digi started offering "discount" deals on the 002 and now bundles a lot of extra plugins with the regular non-"factory bundle"... these are signs that there is probably a 003 in the works.

It may be 12 months though.... can you wait??

As far as Logic Pro goes, there is so much functionality in that program already; it will be interesting to see if they can actually improve it with v8.


J.D.

I think alot could be improved. It's one of those programs where if it works it's your favorite, I had to uninstall some of apple's own plug ins becuase they crashed my sessions. Also since upgrading 7.1 to 7.1.1 I have been getting random pops when bouncing in real time. Also If I run a track in loop mode to write lyrics, different tracks both audio instruments and midi will drop out, requiring reloading to play again. That's just some of the a**** they could fix in Logic "8". Also a +6 pan law would make it more competetive with protools HD.
Old 27th May 2006
  #6
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joaquin's Avatar
 

I also believe that the 003 is around the corner. The perfect machine...an Interface with higher quality than the 192I/O and that will work with both...HD and LE...your choice. stike
Old 27th May 2006
  #7
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what is sequencer in pattern mode youre discribing? is it "step record" kinda thing?



as for improvments, they should put some sort of audiosuite capabilities w/ the AU.
and a better timestreching funcionality. frekin apple loops are a pain. itll be cool to time strech like abletons live 4.


also, have playlists. you know how hard is to record, punchin edit 14 channels of drums.
say you like 2 takes, in logic you have to have muted regions... thats 28 regions on the screen. and for grouping.. forgetit


have buses on the buses. if that makes sense.


as for 003 ... i am also still waiting. i think digidesing are kinda busy with the mac intel and for hard ware they are relying on maudio stuff.
i woulndt be surprise if they got rid of Protools LE and made Maudio stuff better. but then again, they just came out with the mbox2.


for UAD, focusrite is coming out with the firewire liquid compressor EQ thingy. kinda cool even though i ran out of firewire ports. but loos more promising.


and logic wont do any major stuff . they are still on 7.2 and fixing its bugs for the intel trnasition. besides i feel apple bough emagic and put it on the back shelves in terms of priority. they kinda selling/pitching more garage band imovie and that stuff.

i remember i was involved in a conversarion in namm with the head of logic programming (german dude from ex-emagic) and 2 BIG time producers winners of tons of gramies and they where arguing that there where audio editing features missing in logic that are regular in Pro Tools, and the german guy kept saying thats logics way is better.... i was like ... dude... these guys have won gramies they do this for a living listen to them. but he had this strong way kinda narrow way of think like there is only my way type of attitude. so i dont think theyll be a lot of changes unless steve jobs starts using logic.






Old 27th May 2006
  #8
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers
what is sequencer in pattern mode youre discribing? is it "step record" kinda thing?

No. You create regions on the timeline, and play them back in whatever order you want.

So, let's say you have a song. Intro, Verse, chorus, Verse chotus, bridge, chotus.
You define thsie regiosn, and can then easily reattange the song to play for example,: Verse, bridge, chorus Vers, Verse, chorus, intro, verse, verse.
Old 27th May 2006
  #9
Lives for gear
 

sorry my crystal ball isn’t working this week
we never know until something is officially announced.

in regard to a new 002(r)/003(r) digis marketing has been based on a 3 tier system so i think LE will evolve into a mid level platform with the new hardware leaving MP where it is and the bigger features be reserved for HD.
but what do i know.
at the end of the day if you need a new system you have to bite the bullet and buy it. if you always wait for the next thing you will never buy anything.
Old 27th May 2006
  #10
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Tibbon's Avatar
Every decent program out there has markers or regions that you can make to name parts of a song. Rearranging them is normally a trival task. In Protools they are called Memory Locations.

I don't think that Digi is going to give away the house with the Digi003 or whatever they call it when they put it out. I truthfully can't imagine what they would offer, except maybe allowing different I/O options and some modularity to the native system (LE) setup. They aren't going to give you full HD features. They aren't going to give you 128 tracks at 192kHz. They aren't going to give you 192kHz! Digi wants you to buy the big boys for that. Don't think they are going to change their deal now. I know everyone thinks that Protools is the center of the universe but for Digi's parent company Avid, it's just another product that they sell in the same way that they do their professional video setups- in a stepped package configuration that keeps you wanting more until you are at the top. Avid isn't going to dump that scheme. I promise you this.

Logic 8? Let's get Logic 7 working correctly first! I don't want ANY more features, until all of the features that are there work 100% properly to begin with. A lot of the OMF/AAF importing and exporting leaves something to be desired. It's really not the best Post software out there (as I have found out). I don't think that Apple added all that much from 6.4 (and they even took away a few features! I know there were a few things you could do easily in Notator that you can't do in LP 7 easily!).

The truth of the matter is that I think it's just improving workflows of each somewhat. Logic's faults are often it's strengths. LP7 kills anything out there except Max/MSP/Jitter/Csound for Midi flexbility. I don't care what Protools adds to their Midi functionality. The Enviornment is killer in Logic and SOOO flexible. I can built crazy midi setups in it. Ok, it takes forever, but it rocks once you have what you want. I still like PT/Radar/Tape for tracking a band and doing punches more.

Apple is moving in an interesting direction with the Apogee collaboration on the Ensemble. There apparently is their own (Apple's that is) device that will be a 2 in/2 out mBox like device coming out soon as well called the Asteriod or something silly like that. Maybe they will pick back up with eMagic's MIDI devices (I love the Unitor and AMT8).

I don't think we are that far off on seeing new versions of things. I'm truthfully a little afraid that Apple has too much on it's plate to be able to do the music thing well. Apple is notorious for buying up companies, and then just doing nice facelifts on their products. Everything from Shake (didn't get much of a facelift at that!) to Final Cut Pro, to Logic has been purchased from other companies! IMHO only Final Cut has gotten significantly better. Logic was a really mature program when Apple got it, and i'm not sure if they know what to do with it. I think they bought it more so that they could take the technology and strip it down for lower products (like Garageband) to make their computers more attractive. Apple is mainly a hardware company, remember this. Just like Digidesign. They have you trapped in their hardware just like Digi, but it's a little more transparent.

I love Apple. I look forward to LP8, but I don't think it will be groundbreaking. I'd rather see LP 7.3 that works REALLY WELL, and a driver done writing for the Ensemble so the bad boy will ship!
Old 27th May 2006
  #11
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Tibbon's Avatar
I do think that audio editing is really poor and counterintuitive in LP. PT seemed to just make sense. I'm so glad that i'm not working with drummers at the moment, or poor vocalists in LP or I don't think i could do it. My synths love it however!
Old 27th May 2006
  #12
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of course digi wont offer 192KHz in a native package. they want to reserve the extra high sample rates for the hi def system, why do you think they moved from the TDM name to the HD name. but who care, what possible reason do you have for wanting 192KHz in a native system anyway? they wont give suround on a native system any time soon either which i know some people do want but you can always use other software for it.
all i want out of the next generation hardware is more i/o options such as multiple AES, better converters and 48 tracks as the standard not just with an extra upgrade. all of which i think will happen in time we just dont know when.
Old 27th May 2006
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

LE will never be right until they get full ADC. i dont even know how people mix on that damn LE thing.
Old 27th May 2006
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upscaps
i dont even know how people mix on that damn LE thing.
simple, very very few plugs actualy induce any aditional latency so its just not an issue unless you want to use things like UAD or power core.
Old 27th May 2006
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aussie_techie
simple, very very few plugs actualy induce any aditional latency so its just not an issue unless you want to use things like UAD or power core.
my vocal buss usually has a deesser plug, comp, eq. in le my vocals sit way behind. using waves and urs rtas. couldnt use the L3 or multiband either. am i doing something wrong here?
Old 27th May 2006
  #16
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superburtm's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by upscaps
my vocal buss usually has a deesser plug, comp, eq. in le my vocals sit way behind. using waves and urs rtas. couldnt use the L3 or multiband either. am i doing something wrong here?

very few of my plugs induce latency in LE...I use the chandler, WAVEs, Auto tune, BF176 and EQ3 all over the place including parralells and no problemo. ADC on the I/O's would be nice though
Old 27th May 2006
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
jazztone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon
Every decent program out there has markers or regions that you can make to name parts of a song. Rearranging them is normally a trival task. In Protools they are called Memory Locations.

I don't think that Digi is going to give away the house with the Digi003 or whatever they call it when they put it out. I truthfully can't imagine what they would offer, except maybe allowing different I/O options and some modularity to the native system (LE) setup. They aren't going to give you full HD features. They aren't going to give you 128 tracks at 192kHz. They aren't going to give you 192kHz! Digi wants you to buy the big boys for that. Don't think they are going to change their deal now. I know everyone thinks that Protools is the center of the universe but for Digi's parent company Avid, it's just another product that they sell in the same way that they do their professional video setups- in a stepped package configuration that keeps you wanting more until you are at the top. Avid isn't going to dump that scheme. I promise you this.

Logic 8? Let's get Logic 7 working correctly first! I don't want ANY more features, until all of the features that are there work 100% properly to begin with. A lot of the OMF/AAF importing and exporting leaves something to be desired. It's really not the best Post software out there (as I have found out). I don't think that Apple added all that much from 6.4 (and they even took away a few features! I know there were a few things you could do easily in Notator that you can't do in LP 7 easily!).

The truth of the matter is that I think it's just improving workflows of each somewhat. Logic's faults are often it's strengths. LP7 kills anything out there except Max/MSP/Jitter/Csound for Midi flexbility. I don't care what Protools adds to their Midi functionality. The Enviornment is killer in Logic and SOOO flexible. I can built crazy midi setups in it. Ok, it takes forever, but it rocks once you have what you want. I still like PT/Radar/Tape for tracking a band and doing punches more.

Apple is moving in an interesting direction with the Apogee collaboration on the Ensemble. There apparently is their own (Apple's that is) device that will be a 2 in/2 out mBox like device coming out soon as well called the Asteriod or something silly like that. Maybe they will pick back up with eMagic's MIDI devices (I love the Unitor and AMT8).

I don't think we are that far off on seeing new versions of things. I'm truthfully a little afraid that Apple has too much on it's plate to be able to do the music thing well. Apple is notorious for buying up companies, and then just doing nice facelifts on their products. Everything from Shake (didn't get much of a facelift at that!) to Final Cut Pro, to Logic has been purchased from other companies! IMHO only Final Cut has gotten significantly better. Logic was a really mature program when Apple got it, and i'm not sure if they know what to do with it. I think they bought it more so that they could take the technology and strip it down for lower products (like Garageband) to make their computers more attractive. Apple is mainly a hardware company, remember this. Just like Digidesign. They have you trapped in their hardware just like Digi, but it's a little more transparent.

I love Apple. I look forward to LP8, but I don't think it will be groundbreaking. I'd rather see LP 7.3 that works REALLY WELL, and a driver done writing for the Ensemble so the bad boy will ship!

I agree that Logic should be stable before moving on. I don't care that much about editing features that are designed to fix ameturs performances into something better. For a small commercial studio there invaluable because thay work with alot of developing talent. I however think that all this editing crap has made people lazy and they don't rehearse to get things tight and gelled. ALL I KNOW IS YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO BOUNCE TO DISK YOUR SONG WITHOUT IT SOUNDING LIKE HOT PISS ON A WALL. I think it is rudiculous that we put up with this. Fix bounce to disk. THE FILE SHOULD SOUND LIKE IT DID IN LOGIC WHEN YOU BOUNCE THE MOTHER [email protected]#$%R!
I think it's [email protected]#T that my firends ADAT stuff with a GHOST sounds bigger and more 3-D than my better pre amps and EQ's and LOGIC. I know I am not the only one who has experienced something like this.
Old 27th May 2006
  #18
Lou Judson
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by upscaps
LE will never be right until they get full ADC. i dont even know how people mix on that damn LE thing.
Takes more talent and skill than money and attitude...

edit: Wow, it sound like *I'm* the one with attitude - did not mean it that way. Just that using the lower end gear takes very careful engineering but can be done with excellent professional results. I know from comments on my work from mix and mastering engineers who have had to work with my tracks and mixes...

<L>
Old 27th May 2006
  #19
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Hope209's Avatar
 

A little off topic but how long was the 001 out before the 002 came?
Old 27th May 2006
  #20
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Lack of ADC on LE rears it's ugly head on quite a few intensive plugs like multi-band stuff and uad-1/powercore cards.

Having to bounce a project down in realtime is a killer too. I recorded a 30min show w/ an m-box and...
Old 28th May 2006
  #21
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I am hoping that apple will simplify and fix logics basic function, while leaving the deeper option available. kindof a like dvd studio pro basic vs. advanced modes. They must know that the audio tracking and editing is horrible. The other stuff is so good though.
Old 28th May 2006
  #22
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Judson
Takes more talent and skill than money and attitude...

edit: Wow, it sound like *I'm* the one with attitude - did not mean it that way. Just that using the lower end gear takes very careful engineering but can be done with excellent professional results. I know from comments on my work from mix and mastering engineers who have had to work with my tracks and mixes...

<L>
That's still no excuse to not have ADC in an Application.

Oh. And don't worry. As soon as digi has sold enough 002's. They'll release the 003, and remove (unnecesarily) the 002 from the list of interfaces that will work with future PT's versions.
Just as they did with the 001.
Old 29th May 2006
  #23
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the1Hub's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by upscaps
my vocal buss usually has a deesser plug, comp, eq. in le my vocals sit way behind. using waves and urs rtas. couldnt use the L3 or multiband either. am i doing something wrong here?
if you go to the small dialog box below the fader in the edit window you can change it from the fader value to the amount of latency on the channel in samples. do this to your buss and then shift all of your source tracks going into the buss earlier by that amount. works like a charm for other things like bfd and such.

aaron
Old 29th May 2006
  #24
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlotto
Lack of ADC on LE rears it's ugly head on quite a few intensive plugs like multi-band stuff and uad-1/powercore cards.

Having to bounce a project down in realtime is a killer too. I recorded a 30min show w/ an m-box and...
I thought there was a quality difference wrt plugin processing between real time offline.
Old 29th May 2006
  #25
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper
I thought there was a quality difference wrt plugin processing between real time offline.

Nonsense. It's allt he same math.
Old 29th May 2006
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by the1Hub
if you go to the small dialog box below the fader in the edit window you can change it from the fader value to the amount of latency on the channel in samples. do this to your buss and then shift all of your source tracks going into the buss earlier by that amount. works like a charm for other things like bfd and such.

aaron
If i do that and then decide to go to say pt hd or another daw and mix song my files r now shifted and must be shifted back. in 2006 we shouldnt have to nudge trks anymore when every other daw on the planet has ADC.
Old 29th May 2006
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazztone
I am a Logic user who has friends that are still usig ADATS and such. Several are ready to get on board and I'm there go to guy for system choices. In these guys cases it means buying Computers, AD/DA , Front end etc. Most already have mics and mid level outboard. I can't help feeling the Digi 003's and Logic 8's of the world are just around the corner. I personally think that Logic with a complete clean up and revision would be the best DAW on the market. It needs: To have the premiere sound engine of all DAWS
good enough to even intrigue and impress the analog guys. Also address the editing needs of the Protools users. Third, add a feature that let's you use the sequencer in pattern mode as well like a MPC. Here come Thousands of new users. Imagine being able to redo your arrangment just by assigning it in sections and then changing the section order in a list. This would allow you to use it like any drum machine or sequencer. Maybe even make that available with skins that look like ASR-10, SP-1200, MPC-3000 and more importantly sound and work like them. Here comes more thousands of new users and migraters from other DAWS.

What do you guys think? Nice changes coming in 12 months worth waiting for or just buy everything now? Yes UAD-1 cards are great but these guys don't know about latency. And plus something better has got to be coming than the current UAD.
I would say buy now if you need to, theres always gonna be pretty rapid changes in software, however I feel that the DAW is slowly finding its form. You can always upgrade later through upgrade paths.

Personaly I don´t like emulations of the past to much, I would rather like the software to evove in to something new that has not been possible/done before.
I think we will se improvements in GUI and general useability of the programs.

One simple thing that still bugs me is the use of graphic knobs instead of faders, that to me is not as obvious to control using a mouse.
Old 30th May 2006
  #28
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Yup ADC is a deal killer on PTLE. Forget plugs, what about outboard comps and eqs? Sitting there nudging tracks to compensate is the hugest PITA and kills workflow.

The fact of the matter is many people (as I do) use PTLE as nothing more than a dongle. External conversion/pres etc. A $1200 dongle without ADC breaks my balls everytime a boot the thing up heh.
Old 30th May 2006
  #29
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Tibbon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
Yup ADC is a deal killer on PTLE. Forget plugs, what about outboard comps and eqs? Sitting there nudging tracks to compensate is the hugest PITA and kills workflow.

The fact of the matter is many people (as I do) use PTLE as nothing more than a dongle. External conversion/pres etc. A $1200 dongle without ADC breaks my balls everytime a boot the thing up heh.
You know, PT 24/Mix didn't have ADC in it, but no one was complaining that it was impossible to use. Thousands of quality records made with it. I think at the time, people saw the REAL point of using protools being as a tape deck replacement, like Radar, not as an all-in-one does everything for you workstation.
Old 30th May 2006
  #30
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bigbaby987's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman
No. You create regions on the timeline, and play them back in whatever order you want.

So, let's say you have a song. Intro, Verse, chorus, Verse chotus, bridge, chotus.
You define thsie regiosn, and can then easily reattange the song to play for example,: Verse, bridge, chorus Vers, Verse, chorus, intro, verse, verse.

you could pretty much do this with folders in logic...

line up your folders in the order you want and BAM!
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