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Best sampled Rhodes today?
Old 30th September 2014
  #61
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexaCali View Post
if you want to capture non-linear effects then you would have to not just sample all single notes as described, but all possible combinations of notes a keyboardist could play.
What's nice about having your own Rhodes in your studio is that you can customize it to your liking!

When I had a Rhodes years ago (Mark I 1977 new) I was 17 years old performing locally in the clubs. I remember carrying it through the snow like 150 lbs (yikes!)

If you did your own sampling, you could do something like SonicCouture did with their EP76. They sampled it 3 ways.

Check out their video. You can customize your own sounds with it.

EP73 Deconstructed | Soniccouture
Old 30th September 2014
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
If I sampled your Rhodes with 32 velocity layers, pedal up and pedal down, rotating the samples 7 times for each velocity, then basically I'm am "recording" your instrument note per note and there for I have "The real Deal" in my studio.

And one could not hear the difference! Why? Cause it's just like if you recorded your Rhodes to tape (or disk) and payed it back. Sample technology does the same thing.
Not quite, I think.

It'd be the same if you played a Rhodes by only hitting one note at a time, and making sure there was no note overlap: Perfection.

Otherwise, the Rhodes uses a pickup, a transducer and metal tines and an entire harp and mechanism with rattly, thumpy bits... The main problem is the inherent non-linearities.
When you play the Rhodes as a normal performance, vibrations/energy are imparted into the tines, esp if the sus pedal is on, and the inductor[s] will behave differently when more than one note are playing. Also, trilling notes sounds different, as there is considerable energy in the resonating tine when more is added. You may have heard it clearly with percussion samples: Machine gun effect of "restarting" and sound from zero.
It's mitigated by round-robin tricks and overlap, but it's not the same sound.
(I think tape is probably kinda odd at the sampling point too - because of it's non linearities. Rhodes sound fat as heck anyway, after a short decay they're mostly fundamental and a few harmonics. Single note Rhodes only is not going to react like tape in a performance, you'll compress, saturate and add hiss - to me that's going to be less like a real Rhodes than a neutral sampleset?).

One over-extreme example of all this would be recording a distorted guitar and then expecting the chords to sound right.

It's true under quite a few circumstances, one cannot hear the difference, and if the performance is great, these subtleties mean little.

Good models are a different kettle of fish though. Except you get less imperfections.
Old 30th September 2014
  #63
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Ransom View Post
It's true under quite a few circumstances, one cannot hear the difference, and if the performance is great, these subtleties mean little.
And that's the point I was attempting to make.

Quote:
Good models are a different kettle of fish though. Except you get less imperfections.
Lounge Lizard is the best I've heard (modeling wise) but you don't get the nuances of a real sampled Rhodes where's it's not perfect and each note has it's own character.
Old 1st October 2014
  #64
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LL4 is very capable and versatile, but sampled Rhodes still has the sonic edge.

The biggest difference is in the attack portion of the sample.
Old 1st October 2014
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electro View Post
LL4 is very capable and versatile, but sampled Rhodes still has the slight sonic edge.

The biggest difference is in the attack portion of the sample.
As well as each note has it's own character and uniqueness.

The Sonic Couture EP7 was probably sampled from a 38 to 40 plus year old
Mark I.

Each note has been "broken in" so to speak.

SOS said this regarding the EP7.
Quote:
"A close listen reveals small irregularities on a few notes: G2, G#2 and F#3 have an unclean attack, and the piano's characteristic bell tone takes a dip in the vital D#4-A#4 register above Middle C. I guess this goes with the territory in a 40-year old instrument, but such minor anomalies could be said to add character to the overall sound, and will probably go unnoticed by anyone who hasn't played a real Rhodes."
Here's the review.
Soniccouture | EP73 Deconstructed

SEA
Old 1st October 2014
  #66
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For the reasons mentioned, I'm not a fan of the soniccouture Rhodes. Their Wurly is great though. I personally have three Rhodes sample libraries: Acoustic Samples E-pian (like the soniccouture, but sampled from a well maintained Rhodes), the Scarbee (combines well with the E-Pian) and the Premier Sound Factory Suitcase Rhodes. I feel pretty happy with the range of tones and the playability of these three.

I also own a 1977 MkI, which I am slowly restoring from the ground up, but if you're doing a studio track, why not take advantage of the editability of MIDI if the sounds are that close to the real thing now? Now more frustrating back and forthing overdubs until the artist is 100% happy with their solo or whatever.
Old 1st October 2014
  #67
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Pianoteq offers per key editing.
Old 1st October 2014
  #68
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
For the reasons mentioned, I'm not a fan of the soniccouture Rhodes.
Do you have the EP7? Have you tried it out?

I'll take a look at the ones you mentioned when I'm back in the studio mañana!
Old 1st October 2014
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
Do you have the EP7? Have you tried it out?

I'll take a look at the ones you mentioned when I'm back in the studio mañana!
I have not purchased the EP73, but I listened to all their demo sounds extensively through a range of speakers. If I had a use for the other aspects of the library (like the bowed, plucked and mallet sections), I'd get it, but at this stage I do not.

Premier Sound Factory have a Stage Rhodes VSTi that sounds and plays a lot like Scarbee, but is alleged to be better by many. I'm happy enough with the Scarbee to not justify the extra $$, but their Suitcase Rhodes VSTi just perfectly captures that dirty Rhodes sound you can attribute to earlier recordings where they were blasted through either Fender Satellite speakers or the Suitcase speakers themselves. The way they program the interactions between velocity layers is flawless too.
Old 1st October 2014
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
I have not purchased the EP73, but I listened to all their demo sounds extensively through a range of speakers.
Ya... those demos don't do it justice.
Old 1st October 2014
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
Their Wurly is great though.
I'll try to find some better demos of the SonicCouture EP7. If you like their Wurli then just think how good their Rhodes is!
Old 1st October 2014
  #72
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You can sample the sound but you can't sample the feel of the keyboard.
I used sampled pianos all the time, but you can get a real Rhodes cheap and it will always be inspiring to "play".
Old 1st October 2014
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
I'll try to find some better demos of the SonicCouture EP7. If you like their Wurli then just think how good their Rhodes is!
That would be great Cheers.

The thing I like the most about the wurli is the aggression and realism of the aftertouch. Blending in the broken speaker gives it some true-to-the-original distortion and dirt too.
Old 1st October 2014
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
You can sample the sound but you can't sample the feel of the keyboard.
I used sampled pianos all the time, but you can get a real Rhodes cheap and it will always be inspiring to "play".
True. One of the reasons I use both. There are some pretty amazing controllers out nowadays though ... you could easily argue the feel is superior than a Rhodes. Obviously it's not the same, either way, and if you are a Rhodes aficionado, there's simply no substitute and never will be. Even the new Vintage Vibe EPs that are probably better than a MarkI in numerous measurable ways will never top the Rhodes just because it isn't one. There's history, nostalgia and all sorts of other factors to consider.

As a musician who has spent a lot more time using semi weighted controllers (I gigged for a long time with a Nord Electro), I tend to produce better performances on my favourite controller than on the Rhodes piano itself, but playing on the latter often inspires a more heart-felt solo - just one with more technical flaws. So, as I've stated, I couldn't pick between the two and just kept my Rhodes as a studio piece.
Old 1st October 2014
  #75
I see a lot of "you can't beat the real thing" comments and while that's obviously true for most reasons, Ive never been able to connect with the feel of the rhodes' keys

my brother owns several and I find myself struggling to play anything beyond chords...runs, arpeggios, scales...very difficult for me

for this reason alone, I like using a vi from time to time

does anyone have an opinion one way or another on the ik rhodes/wurly package? that's the rhodes vi that's piqued my interest lately
Old 1st October 2014
  #76
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
You can sample the sound but you can't sample the feel of the keyboard.
I used sampled pianos all the time, but you can get a real Rhodes cheap and it will always be inspiring to "play".
True! However I have a Yamaha P95 88 and it has a great feel that I find very inspirational!

My 1977 Mark I action I think was a bit sluggish by comparison. I gave it to a friend who was the leader of the band I formed in 1980. He still has it today!

The one thing I prefer is being able to tweak my performance via midi. I could be rockin and the have a bad note. With VSTs I can fix it or change the velocity etc.
Old 2nd October 2014
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
True! However I have a Yamaha P95 88 and it has a great feel that I find very inspirational!

My 1977 Mark I action I think was a bit sluggish by comparison. I gave it to a friend who was the leader of the band I formed in 1980. He still has it today!

The one thing I prefer is being able to tweak my performance via midi. I could be rockin and the have a bad note. With VSTs I can fix it or change the velocity etc.
I agree with this for sure. I'm currently doing the pedestal action and back-check mods to my Rhodes. This should improve the feel and playability dramatically and make it more on par with a good fully weighted controller, but still - MIDI is just too important to me. Sometimes you have artists who need/want way too many takes - all of which could be avoided with MIDI editing. I am often that artist myself haha
Old 2nd October 2014
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
Sometimes you have artists who need/want way too many takes - all of which could be avoided with MIDI editing. I am often that artist myself haha
Ha!!! Me Too!!

For me.. Midi gives me the freedom to "Be Myself" and not be pressured to have the "perfect performance"

As a studio musician for years (and getting paid $35 an hour back in the 80's) I had to get it right on the first few takes. Also we had to punch in on the fly to 2 inch tape! The studio expected me to get it done ASAP!

But with midi the pressures off so I can just play as I feel and "out of the box" so to speak. More creativity can flow when you realize it can all be changed if needed.
Old 2nd October 2014
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
Ha!!! Me Too!!

For me.. Midi gives me the freedom to "Be Myself" and not be pressured to have the "perfect performance"

As a studio musician for years (and getting paid $35 an hour back in the 80's) I had to get it right on the first few takes. Also we had to punch in on the fly to 2 inch tape! The studio expected me to get it done ASAP!

But with midi the pressures off so I can just play as I feel and "out of the box" so to speak. More creativity can flow when you realize it can all be changed if needed.
Amen to that.

I've just been such a fanboy of the Rhodes for so many decades now that I don't think I'll ever give up my MkI. Especially not after pouring days and days of my time into restoring and upgrading it (both mechanically and cosmetically). It's also always nice to have the option to record the real thing. Sometimes you do get spot on musicians who nail it first take, every take, and it's still both a pleasure to own and a centrepiece in the studio.
Old 2nd October 2014
  #80
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Neo Soul keys is really great. Sure, real thing is bette, real keyboard player is better, yas yas. I agree. I don't own a rhodes. I'm not a keyboard player. I would rather own a good rhodes and have a really good keyboard player on hand at all times, so I could set him up on demand.

But Neo Soul Keys really captures the sound of a rhodes being real-life played--lots of mechanical noise, variable distortion. It's extremely well done. Don't like their Wurli as much, but it's also good.

Not as good as the real thing, sure. Do we really have to have that discussion? It's a tool--just like the original rhodes was a tool used to replace an acoustic piano, which it was not as good as.
Old 2nd October 2014
  #81
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
That would be great Cheers.

The thing I like the most about the wurli is the aggression and realism of the aftertouch. Blending in the broken speaker gives it some true-to-the-original distortion and dirt too.
Here's a few demos I made (just some random stuff).

https://app.box.com/s/i8rw940zoustevzzqulu

I kept it in 24 bit and uploaded it to my Box.net account. Please ignore any bad notes or anything in "The Mix" like digital distortion (there shouldn't be any but...)

I was trying to show off a few of their patches that I liked (there are many to choose from.) I also tried to included in a few demos of their pedal release samples. Very detailed (IMHO.)

This piano really cuts the track and I when I A/B it to Scarbee or LL4 there's really no comparison.

The 5th demo is from the "Bowed" piano sample lib. They have over 60 presets in their "Sound Design" section to choose from. They have LOTS of presets over all. More than most EP libs it seems.

The 6th demo is using their stock stage EP7 that I modified layered with the bowed piano. Nice effect.

The last demo is showing some of the FX sounds. Pretty cool stuff. Certainly one could use for multiple application.

To me, this piano is very unique and is my new "go to" Rhodes.

Best,

SEA
Old 2nd October 2014
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
Amen to that.

I've just been such a fanboy of the Rhodes for so many decades now that I don't think I'll ever give up my MkI. Especially not after pouring days and days of my time into restoring and upgrading it (both mechanically and cosmetically). It's also always nice to have the option to record the real thing. Sometimes you do get spot on musicians who nail it first take, every take, and it's still both a pleasure to own and a centrepiece in the studio.
I just finished several takes o my not so mint 73 mk2.after having recorded several takes on a friends machine who has all the sample libs.For me it is worth the extra takes which arer necessary because of no MIDI editing available. Especially those little tuning imperfections along with a bit of the boss chorus ensemble. maybe because everything else "is in the box", the real rhodes tracks make quite a big difference for me. if I needed the MIDI editing i think I would prefer the rhodes sounds in my yamaha CP5
even if the NI sample is not bad for my taste.
best wishes
Old 3rd October 2014
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosho View Post
I just finished several takes o my not so mint 73 mk2.after having recorded several takes on a friends machine who has all the sample libs.For me it is worth the extra takes which arer necessary because of no MIDI editing available. Especially those little tuning imperfections along with a bit of the boss chorus ensemble. maybe because everything else "is in the box", the real rhodes tracks make quite a big difference for me. if I needed the MIDI editing i think I would prefer the rhodes sounds in my yamaha CP5
even if the NI sample is not bad for my taste.
best wishes
I agree in part. I did ALL of my live recordings using the Rhodes, because I felt it brought out better performances - not just from myself as the pianist, but it also improved the overall performance of the band.

Once my Rhodes restoration/upgrade is completed, I daresay I might join you in my preference of the Rhodes over the VSTi in the studio too, but it will depend a lot on the circumstances. I think there will always be a suitable time for either option.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #84
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In this post, which is in a thread about compressors, you can hear an example of Neo soul-keys in use.
Old 3rd October 2014
  #85
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SonicCouture Ep73 gets my vote.
Old 9th October 2014
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosho View Post
I just finished several takes o my not so mint 73 mk2.after having recorded several takes on a friends machine who has all the sample libs.For me it is worth the extra takes which arer necessary because of no MIDI editing available. Especially those little tuning imperfections along with a bit of the boss chorus ensemble. maybe because everything else "is in the box", the real rhodes tracks make quite a big difference for me. if I needed the MIDI editing i think I would prefer the rhodes sounds in my yamaha CP5
even if the NI sample is not bad for my taste.
best wishes
Just a quick thread detour...
How are you wiring up the chorus ensemble?
Just wondering what the best way is on a suitcase Mkii.
Old 11th October 2014
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
Just a quick thread detour...
How are you wiring up the chorus ensemble?
Just wondering what the best way is on a suitcase Mkii.
Unfortunately I don`t own and don`t really know the suitcase ,I have a stage model.Sometimes I hook it up to an H&K Tubeman going into the Boss CE.If I want a strong chorus effect ,I use it in mono. Most of the time only for a light effect in stereo and then i add the "stereo trem /panning" with a plugin
does the suitcase mk2 have an insert loop ?
Old 11th October 2014
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
Here's a few demos I made (just some random stuff).
To me, this piano is very unique and is my new "go to" Rhodes.
See, this is where it gets totally into the end user preference. Your playing is nice, the Rhodes sounds are nice, and it reminds me of when I was in college and guys would come into the music store where I worked and sit at various Rhodes, playing solo stuff and listening to the tines, feeling the action.

For me though, I would never listen to or play or engineer a song (of mine) that remotely used the style, approach, or sounds on Sea's demo. No slam at all on him.... it's just not the kind of Rhodes music I listen to or play. When I work with a Rhodes (or sim), it isn't in the context of a solo easy-listening or jazz piece. It's in a rock and roll or pop mix.

If I'm tracking a real Rhodes in 1977, I'm doing stuff like the intro to "sound chaser" by Yes, or "I'm Not In Love" by 10cc, or Get Back etc. if a Wurlitzer, "Stay With Me" or "She's Not There" etc. My head is still in that mode, so I don't look for the sounds or feel of the above demo.


I'll also chime in to the guy who never liked Rhodes action. I don't either and I've been playing them since maybe 1969 or so. I don't like the feel of any of them... ever. I do believe the action is good for technique workout.... but I don't work on technique on Rhodes pianos. I'm a guitar player by history. I play keys fine, play excellent b3 (talk about a feel diff from a Rhodes), but I do not like the action on Rhodes pianos.

Which is another reason I love LL where I can couple it with any controller I want.

All goes to show you that it's great we have so many Rhodes choices nowadays so each of us can have exactly the Rhodes we want. I would've given anything to have these kinds of choices in 1970.
Old 12th October 2014
  #89
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
See, this is where it gets totally into the end user preference. Your playing is nice, the Rhodes sounds are nice, and it reminds me of when I was in college and guys would come into the music store where I worked and sit at various Rhodes, playing solo stuff and listening to the tines, feeling the action.

For me though, I would never listen to or play or engineer a song (of mine) that remotely used the style, approach, or sounds on Sea's demo. No slam at all on him.... it's just not the kind of Rhodes music I listen to or play. When I work with a Rhodes (or sim), it isn't in the context of a solo easy-listening or jazz piece. It's in a rock and roll or pop mix.

If I'm tracking a real Rhodes in 1977, I'm doing stuff like the intro to "sound chaser" by Yes, or "I'm Not In Love" by 10cc, or Get Back etc. if a Wurlitzer, "Stay With Me" or "She's Not There" etc. My head is still in that mode, so I don't look for the sounds or feel of the above demo.


I'll also chime in to the guy who never liked Rhodes action. I don't either and I've been playing them since maybe 1969 or so. I don't like the feel of any of them... ever. I do believe the action is good for technique workout.... but I don't work on technique on Rhodes pianos. I'm a guitar player by history. I play keys fine, play excellent b3 (talk about a feel diff from a Rhodes), but I do not like the action on Rhodes pianos.

Which is another reason I love LL where I can couple it with any controller I want.

All goes to show you that it's great we have so many Rhodes choices nowadays so each of us can have exactly the Rhodes we want. I would've given anything to have these kinds of choices in 1970.
I have LL and have used it exclusively for many years until I discovered the EP73.

All the styles you mention above I love and play as well!

The demo I posted was to just show some of the many sounds this EP73 has. It can do all of the sounds of the songs you mentioned and more.

And YES! This is a Rhodes Mark 1 from the mid 70's!

SEA
Old 16th October 2014
  #90
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That's a great sounding demo. How many different settings are we hearing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
Here's a few demos I made (just some random stuff).

https://app.box.com/s/i8rw940zoustevzzqulu

I kept it in 24 bit and uploaded it to my Box.net account. Please ignore any bad notes or anything in "The Mix" like digital distortion (there shouldn't be any but...)

I was trying to show off a few of their patches that I liked (there are many to choose from.) I also tried to included in a few demos of their pedal release samples. Very detailed (IMHO.)

This piano really cuts the track and I when I A/B it to Scarbee or LL4 there's really no comparison.

The 5th demo is from the "Bowed" piano sample lib. They have over 60 presets in their "Sound Design" section to choose from. They have LOTS of presets over all. More than most EP libs it seems.

The 6th demo is using their stock stage EP7 that I modified layered with the bowed piano. Nice effect.

The last demo is showing some of the FX sounds. Pretty cool stuff. Certainly one could use for multiple application.

To me, this piano is very unique and is my new "go to" Rhodes.

Best,

SEA
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