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Compressor Plug-ins Now High END? Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 17th October 2015
  #121
8070
Guest
[QUOTE=kevola;11413802]While I'm sympathetic to your point of view, I don't understand the point of differentiating a piece of hardware from a piece of software. [QUOTE]

Sound quality/complexity/timbre and reliability. Yes, the worst pieces of equipment (ie: modern microphones, modern this, modern that) are often designed by people, imo, that don't value listening to it...but rather proving that it sounds good, by the use of mathematics. Epic fail.

Another big problem with NEW technology, is that it is leading people away from emotion. Away from connection. The very thing that music is. It's getting to the point where it's creating a sterile environment based on perfection. Epic fail.

Many thanks to emulators, vocal fixers, drum aligners...and other f***ing b*******. Sorry for the expletives kev.

There is a HUGE difference in the EXPERIENCE for everyone, with analogue vs digital.

Last edited by 8070; 17th October 2015 at 09:13 PM..
Old 17th October 2015
  #122
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mix2Master View Post
So @desol you're tracking to tape right?

Althought curious, what happens if your STA Level compressor craps out?
The current chain that I'm using...is a decent sounding small hardwood room, a Sony C-48 into a Neve 1290 replica with original in/out transformers...then into an LA2A replica with original inputs and Urei T4b opto's, and then finally through the Gates Sta-Level set on fast/fast(modified time constant)...down to a Tascam DSD recorder. But of course, I can't get the DSD unit to record in DSD(it's picky about disks)...so it records in 24/44...reliably enough. Again, an example, the digital unit is the only unit being difficult in the chain. Sometimes it closes the cd door too fast...and I can't grab the cd. Sometimes this, sometimes that...

No good. But the rest of the chain is good...
Old 17th October 2015
  #123
Gear Nut
[QUOTE=desol;11413944][QUOTE=kevola;11413802]While I'm sympathetic to your point of view, I don't understand the point of differentiating a piece of hardware from a piece of software.
Quote:

Sound quality/complexity/timbre and reliability. Yes, the worst pieces of equipment (ie: modern microphones, modern this, modern that) are often designed by people, imo, that don't value listening to it...but rather proving that it sounds good, by the use of mathematics. Epic fail.

Another big problem with NEW technology, is that it is leading people away from emotion. Away from connection. The very thing that music is. It's getting to the point where it's creating a sterile environment based on perfection. Epic fail.

Many thanks to emulators, vocal fixers, drum aligners...and other f***ing b*******. Sorry for the expletives kev.

There is a HUGE difference in the EXPERIENCE for everyone, with analogue vs digital.
I honestly do not believe that modern microphone designers have different motivations than the designers of yesteryear, nor were they less proficient in math. Corporations ie. people were every bit as greedy in 1935 as they are today.

I get that you prefer the sounds of the old workhorses and your that experiences with the reliability of that gear are good ones, but the first is subjective and the second is anecdotal. I'll give you the point on reliability, but as to the first, if most people appreciated the vintage sound, everything on the radio today would sound vintage. Consider the idea that perhaps people actually like the sounds that you find distasteful.

They were probably having arguments just like this over live big band sound over amplified sound.

FWIW, I like the old school sounds too, but my grandparents hated it.
Old 17th October 2015
  #124
Gear Nut
 
kriszuki's Avatar
 

I owned a stalevel that went down on me (come on dont be dirty) unbeknownst to me something blew out at the back(this is getting silly) and consequently the unit for a while never sounded the same as it did new - but I didn't realise it was faulty till i sold it and the new owner explained the problem-the cause and the lop sided waveforms the processed audio from the stalevel put out- the new owner got it fixed by retro instruments directly(great company) as much as the stalevel is flippin incredible, these go wrong from time to time. just sayin
Old 17th October 2015
  #125
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriszuki View Post
as much as the stalevel is flippin incredible, these go wrong from time to time. just sayin
i've had 2 and neither has worked properly..
Old 17th October 2015
  #126
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevola View Post
I'll give you the point on reliability, but as to the first, if most people appreciated the vintage sound, everything on the radio today would sound vintage.
Nearly everything on the radio today, is using vintage, professional analogue equipment. NEVE, API, STUDER, NEUMANN, SSL.

sOME hit's and more so ie: URBAN/TECHNO utilizes a lot of computer editing, but were tracked onto the medium with professional microphones, pre-amps, compressors, etc...I can nearly guarantee.

"At one point, nearly 80 percent of the hits on the radio were recorded here" - Sound City.

Rage against the machine.
Tom Petty.
Did you watch the movie?
Neil Young.
Nirvana.

Have a look.
Recordings By Year – Sound City Studios



* Neumann - Neve - Studer.

All the hits. No computers.
Old 18th October 2015
  #127
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Nearly everything on the radio today, is using vintage, professional analogue equipment. NEVE, API, STUDER, NEUMANN, SSL.
Thank you.
Old 18th October 2015
  #128
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredouli View Post
i've had 2 and neither has worked properly..
Mine is an old original. I bought it off Ebay years ago in missing a bunch of pieces. I think I paid $400. It was put back together by an electronics engineer and modified. Hasn't missed a beat yet. 5 selectable time constants, new sowter input. Sounds and works excellently and smells good when it heats up.

http://s700.photobucket.com/user/des...gates.jpg.html
Old 18th October 2015
  #129
Lives for gear
Desol you sound like a man who knows what he likes and like what he knows. Nothing wrong with that but I'd caution against dismissing other workflows. I can't imagine working with such a limited palette as you do for example.Your setup would stifle my creativity.
Old 18th October 2015
  #130
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Nearly everything on the radio today, is using vintage, professional analogue equipment. NEVE, API, STUDER, NEUMANN, SSL.

sOME hit's and more so ie: URBAN/TECHNO utilizes a lot of computer editing, but were tracked onto the medium with professional microphones, pre-amps, compressors, etc...I can nearly guarantee.

"At one point, nearly 80 percent of the hits on the radio were recorded here" - Sound City.

Rage against the machine.
Tom Petty.
Did you watch the movie?
Neil Young.
Nirvana.

Have a look.
Recordings By Year – Sound City Studios



* Neumann - Neve - Studer.

All the hits. No computers.
I wish I was more familiar with modern music production, but to be honest, much of the stuff I hear on the local top 40 does not sound vintage to me. I'd be astonished to learn that no one tracks to, mixes or masters ITB today but I just don't know. What I'm trying to say is that taste in sounds change. Your dislike of some digitally produced sounds doesn't make them bad, or somehow not real.

Technology of whatever kind, be it hardware or software, is a tool in the hands of the artist, and that the artist and the engineer have a synergistic relationship that pushes the state of the art forward, and it has always been that way regardless of whether we're talking tubes, transistors or algorithms.
Old 18th October 2015
  #131
Lives for gear
Sadly mine is the Retro Sta level.. First one was returned as faulty and the second one has played up from day 1 and completely unusable tracking. So this isn't a vintage unit! And I'm totally floored by the lack of support I've had as well. I always thought buying vintage was problematic.. But buying new can be as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Mine is an old original. I bought it off Ebay years ago in missing a bunch of pieces. I think I paid $400. It was put back together by an electronics engineer and modified. Hasn't missed a beat yet. 5 selectable time constants, new sowter input. Sounds and works excellently and smells good when it heats up.

Modified Sta Level Photo by desol777 | Photobucket
Old 18th October 2015
  #132
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolin View Post
Desol you sound like a man who knows what he likes and like what he knows. Nothing wrong with that but I'd caution against dismissing other workflows. I can't imagine working with such a limited palette as you do for example.Your setup would stifle my creativity.
The Beatles worked with little more than I'm using now, yet created some of the best and most creative pop music the world has seen. It's a recording chain. This little setup I'm using at the moment demands that you can sing and play, in tune. My setup relies on human performance as the meat of the performance, not machine assist. It relies on finding things to make sounds with...not pressing a button.

I would like to get a decent syth/keyboard at some point tho...

Last edited by 8070; 18th October 2015 at 01:59 PM..
Old 18th October 2015
  #133
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevola View Post
I wish I was more familiar with modern music production, but to be honest, much of the stuff I hear on the local top 40 does not sound vintage to me. I'd be astonished to learn that no one tracks to, mixes or masters ITB today but I just don't know. What I'm trying to say is that taste in sounds change. Your dislike of some digitally produced sounds doesn't make them bad, or somehow not real.

Technology of whatever kind, be it hardware or software, is a tool in the hands of the artist, and that the artist and the engineer have a synergistic relationship that pushes the state of the art forward, and it has always been that way regardless of whether we're talking tubes, transistors or algorithms.
Much of the stuff on top 40 is recorded with vintage equipment. Vintage equipment doesn't sound vintage...it sounds good. It sounds big, it sounds urgent, it sounds like everything that you've heard, because it's extremely likey that that's what was used! Pro tools, autotune, drum samples. Pushing the envelope. Katie Perry...digital editing, autotune...even tho she doesn't need it.

Many guys are tracking to pro tools, radar or whatever...but many people are still using tape(studio 606). The rest of it is the same old (expensive) analogue chain. Room, Console, Mics, Compressors, EQ's -(again, let's throw synths, autotune in there). Many guys that have digital setups...still rely on their vintage outboard. I like setups that make performance real. With my setup, there's no hiding behind autotune, no fixing it later. You have to be able to sing and play first. While modern tech has propelled some into positive creation...much of it imo, has been propelled backwards, making it too easy for some that can't play or sing. If you took autotune to a Beatles recording session, they'd toss you out on your f***ing ear?

I don't think that there's anything more creative now, than what people were able to do way back when. In fact, I think they were more creative with less.

People need to be able to play and create without digital machine assist altering their performances. It just ends up (sometimes) sounding like ass, instead of creative.

Last edited by 8070; 18th October 2015 at 03:16 PM..
Old 18th October 2015
  #134
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredouli View Post
Sadly mine is the Retro Sta level. First one was returned as faulty and the second one has played up from day 1 and completely unusable tracking. So this isn't a vintage unit! And I'm totally floored by the lack of support I've had as well. I always thought buying vintage was problematic.. But buying new can be as well
There's no reason that a Retro unit should be acting up like that. It's probably something pretty simple. Maybe try to get a local guy(with proper electronics training) to have a look at it. Mine came in a dirty old box, rusted and half together and works very well.
Old 18th October 2015
  #135
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Much of the stuff on top 40 is recorded with vintage equipment. Vintage equipment doesn't sound vintage...it sounds good. It sounds big, it sounds urgent, it sounds like everything that you've heard, because it's extremely likey that that's what was used! Pro tools, autotune, drum samples. Pushing the envelope. Katie Perry...digital editing, autotune...even tho she doesn't need it.

Many guys are tracking to pro tools, radar or whatever...but many people are still using tape(studio 606). The rest of it is the same old (expensive) analogue chain. Room, Console, Mics, Compressors, EQ's -(again, let's throw synths, autotune in there). Many guys that have digital setups...still rely on their vintage outboard. I like setups that make performance real. With my setup, there's no hiding behind autotune, no fixing it later. You have to be able to sing and play first. While modern tech has propelled some into positive creation...much of it imo, has been propelled backwards, making it too easy for some that can't play or sing. If you took autotune to a Beatles recording session, they'd toss you out on your f***ing ear?

I don't think that there's anything more creative now, than what people were able to do way back when. In fact, I think they were more creative with less.

People need to be able to play and create without digital machine assist altering their performances. It just ends up (sometimes) sounding like ass, instead of creative.
Being all about the purity of the performance is just fine, but I don't think ITB tech negates the value of having great musicians. And I suspect that John Lennon would have grabbed the new technology with both hands and run with it.

Thanks for the great insights!
Old 18th October 2015
  #136
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevola View Post
Being all about the purity of the performance is just fine, but I don't think ITB tech negates the value of having great musicians.
I think it lowers the quality and the expectations overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevola View Post
And I suspect that John Lennon would have grabbed the new technology with both hands and run with it.
Tough to say. I think he was a stubborn duck. Every time I've seen a video of him in the studio he's been like "Turn the f***ING mic up(neumann), and get the tape rolling." He knew what worked, but was creative in terms of sounds/atmosphere. I'm not sure that he would have been a big proponent of digital.
Old 18th October 2015
  #137
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Not my fault you can't feel anything? I'm an artist...artists are creative. Something that non-artists have a hard time understanding. You can't understand creative emotion through technology. I've experienced both sides of the coin...you obviously, haven't. Creative emotion, for those struggling with the definition, is what makes good music....not ****ing math.

Stick to math. You're out of your waters.

Your ignorance is enlightened by the fact, that the only way you can respond, is through insult....which is often a last resort for people that simply can't or refuse to understand...usually because of fear.
Similar complaints surely abounded when the phonograph, radio, and electric guitar were invented.
Old 19th October 2015
  #138
Gear Maniac
 

Seriously guys,

why is anybody still engaging in this pointless conversation with desol?

By now, this discussion is so far off topic that it's really absurd.

Nothing desol says really has anything to do with what he says in his respective previous post, let alone with the OP.

Every one of desols posts is on a completely different topic and has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread.

And it's all bull****, too, it literally has zero relevance to anyone or anything.

Bury this thread, stop replying.
Old 19th October 2015
  #139
I've been leaning more and more toward the SSL G Buss Comp as my go to for bus comps (... as I type, that feels redundant, but ...)

That sucker just 'feels' good. I've got a lot of comps at my disposal, hardware and software, and the SSL is being used more and more.

The funny thing is I've had it a long time, and I've used it here and there.... but lately I just keep reaching for it.

It feels very natural... breathing... musical.... yet, still a great job of marrying everything - in a very 'natural' way.
Old 19th October 2015
  #140
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexe View Post
Seriously guys,

why is anybody still engaging in this pointless conversation with desol?

By now, this discussion is so far off topic that it's really absurd.

Nothing desol says really has anything to do with what he says in his respective previous post, let alone with the OP.

Every one of desols posts is on a completely different topic and has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread.

And it's all bull****, too, it literally has zero relevance to anyone or anything.

Bury this thread, stop replying.
desol is love, desol is life.
Old 19th October 2015
  #141
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexe View Post
Seriously guys,

why is anybody still engaging in this pointless conversation with desol?

By now, this discussion is so far off topic that it's really absurd.

Nothing desol says really has anything to do with what he says in his respective previous post, let alone with the OP.

Every one of desols posts is on a completely different topic and has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread.

And it's all bull****, too, it literally has zero relevance to anyone or anything.

Bury this thread, stop replying.
I disagree. I may not be on the same page with him, or rather I'd say my page is larger than his, and he has strong opinions and he's passionate in his advocacy of them, but it's all good. imho we're still on topic.

Fortunately we don't have to kill an interesting conversation at your say-so, so I think we'll just carry on as best we can in the face of your disapproval.
Old 20th October 2015
  #142
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevola View Post
I may not be on the same page with him, or rather I'd say my page is larger than his...
Let's just say, your page is different Kev. Don't forget...I mixed for years with plugins. I know the unpredictable nature of shi**y computers, updates, incompatibilities, bs's-od, .dll errors, runtime errors, memory page errors, virus's(namely win32/64), driver errors, on and on and on and on.

I did it for a living for 7 years...

So I'd say NO(to Alex and the OP). Computers are not in the same league sound-wise or reliability wise as High End equipment.

Last edited by 8070; 20th October 2015 at 12:39 AM..
Old 20th October 2015
  #143
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Let's just say, your page is different Kev. Don't forget...I mixed for years with plugins. I know the unpredictable nature of shi**y computers, updates, incompatibilities, bs's-od, .dll errors, runtime errors, memory page errors, virus's(namely win32/64), driver errors, on and on and on and on.

I did it for a living for 7 years...

So I'd say NO(to Alex and the OP). Computers are not in the same league sound-wise or reliability wise as High End equipment.
Your experience would decide the issue, if it weren't for other people who've also used both but don't agree with you.
Old 20th October 2015
  #144
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbruner View Post
Your experience would decide the issue, if it weren't for other people who've also used both but don't agree with you.


...and what do you think John. You keep throwing stones at a distance, but have little to say. Most non-professionals I see when they encounter the real hardware, exhibit this response.

I have SSL plugins...I had an SSL compressor. It blew it out of the f***ing water. I had been using SSL channel stips, etc, etc for a while before I got it. When I heard it, this was my response: similar to other peoples response. It was no comparison...which should not be surprising seeing as the software is a 64th of the price. Does that make any sense? Eq is much more forgiving to emulate; compression and reverb aren't. Even convolution reverbs. They're decent...but still not as good as the actual space?

No offense but, it's common sense. *Don't let my belligerence stop you from seeing that.

I suppose you're going to tell me next, that an EMT 140 plugin sounds the same as a real plate.



em-u-late

[v. em-yuh-leyt; adj. em-yuh-lit]

verb (used with object), emulated, emulating.


1. to try to equal or excel; imitate with effort to equal or surpass:
to emulate one's father as a concert violinist.


2. to rival with some degree of success:
Some smaller cities now emulate the major capitals in their cultural offerings.


3. Computers. a.to imitate (a particular computer system) by using a software system, often including a microprogram or another computer that enables it to do the same work, run the same programs, etc., as the first.

b.to replace (software) with hardware to perform the same task.



The answer is NO. It doesn't sound the same as the real thing. How many times do I have to keep reiterating what is easily obvious with simple deductive reasoning?

Watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmriXtPvkMA

Do your plugins sound like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyTiYCGfUKU

The answer is CLEARLY....NO.





*...if you can make something good with whatever you have, it doesn't matter, its still good. But that wasn't the point of this thread...

Last edited by 8070; 20th October 2015 at 02:53 AM..
Old 20th October 2015
  #145
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
the software is a 64th of the price
Take 1/64 of your hardware-budget and spend it on software instead.

Take the remaining 63/64 of your hardware-budget and use it to hire someone to:

- cure your computer of viruses and whatever other computer-problems are plaguing you; and with whatever time he has left over,

- assist with your production.

If you still can't match hardware this way, you have the worst luck with computers I have ever heard of.
Old 20th October 2015
  #146
Lives for gear
 
davidgary73's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
I have SSL plugins...I had an SSL compressor. It blew it out of the f***ing water. I had been using SSL channel stips, etc, etc for a while before I got it. When I heard it, this was my response: similar to other peoples response. It was no comparison...which should not be surprising seeing as the software is a 64th of the price. Does that make any sense? Eq is much more forgiving to emulate; compression and reverb aren't. Even convolution reverbs. They're decent...but still not as good as the actual space?

The answer is NO. It doesn't sound the same as the real thing. How many times do I have to keep reiterating what is easily obvious with simple deductive reasoning
I totally agree with you. Hardware will always have a better sound even tho both plug and hardware may sound identical.

Another video by Doug Jenkins on SSL comp plug vs SSL comp Hardware:


Working with tape, hardware reverb, EQs etc is truly a blessings and fun. I missed those days turning real knobs

Unfortunately, not many of us home studio owners have the luxury of owning these wonderful items anymore hence audio software developers are developing these missing tools into the computer music world.

As far as computer is concern, no Windows for me. Only Mac hahaha

I'm glad to have found Acustica Nebula and their Acqua series plugs. They manage to bring back the hardware sound we're so acquainted with. Yes yes they are a pain to use but they do sound much better than normal algo plugs.

Truly happy we have these software tools to enhance our productions as long as it sounds good

Last edited by davidgary73; 20th October 2015 at 03:30 AM..
Old 20th October 2015
  #147
8070
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbruner View Post
Take 1/64 of your hardware-budget and spend it on software instead.

Take the remaining 63/64 of your hardware-budget and use it to hire someone to:

- cure your computer of viruses and whatever other computer-problems are plaguing you; and with whatever time he has left over,

- assist with your production.

If you still can't match hardware this way, you have the worst luck with computers I have ever heard of.


John. I was speaking of issues that I had fixed on other peoples computers as a tech. Not my computer.
Old 20th October 2015
  #148
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexe View Post
You are literally admitting right there that you are highly biased by factors OTHER than just the sound.

You belong to the kind of people who can't be helped. You just want to believe that software plugins can never sound as good as hardware. Maybe to justify to yourself that it wasn't a stupid decision to waste a lot of money on hardware. Number one hits have been mixed entirely in the box. Some of the most famous musicians in the world work with nothing but plugins.

My question is: Why are people arguing with this man? He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. His understanding of analog and digital signal processing is fundamentally wrong.

There is no argument to be won here when people fundamentally misunderstand how stuff works. Nobody can win this discussion, it's pointless.

This dude is the first who can't tell the difference between a hardware 1176 and a plugin 1176 in a blind test. 100% guaranteed.

Bury this thread. The people who want to believe that hardware will always sound better than software are the same kind of people who believe that god created the earth. There is no arguing with them.

This is just an ideological thing.
God created my tube gear AND my plugins...
Old 20th October 2015
  #149
Lives for gear
 
bgood's Avatar
Garbage in garbage out... Through tubes or through your Amiga.

It's about the music, man.
Old 20th October 2015
  #150
Lives for gear
 
steveschizoid's Avatar
Plugin guys. UAD especially is doing great work. There's still a little tiny phoniness, but their plugins are usable enough.

But have you ever tracked an incredibly dynamic singer through an Aurora Audio pre+EQ, 2 compressors worth a total of $8000 plus an Anamod ATS-1? And been able to play back the result and have a finished sound that pretty much just sits where it's supposed to?

It makes you look like you know what you're doing.
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