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Compressor Plug-ins Now High END?
Old 16th October 2015
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinh222 View Post
What do you guys think of Native Instrument compressors and how they stack up against waves and others?
The Vary comp its the one i used a lot when i need clean really loud mastering i can go really loud with that thing when i use its parallel knobs i drive it really hard.Its supposed to be Manley Vary MU but sounds absolutely nothing like it but thats not bad its very useful tool.
Old 16th October 2015
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacnadon View Post
The Vary comp its the one i used a lot when i need clean really loud mastering i can go really loud with that thing when i use its parallel knobs i drive it really hard.Its supposed to be Manley Vary MU but sounds absolutely nothing like it but thats not bad its very useful tool.

Right, so thats the mastering one. I was wondering about that.
I generally just run the master through Ozone and use its compressor/limiter. Are Ozone dynamics not at a decent standard and does anyone use them or just disable them?
Reason I ask is I noticed my vocals sound rubbish though Alloy and always end up using NI compression for that.

Basically the question Im asking is - is Ozone's dynamics crap for mastering?
Old 16th October 2015
  #93
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Fanu's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinh222 View Post
Right, so thats the mastering one. I was wondering about that.
I generally just run the master through Ozone and use its compressor/limiter. Are Ozone dynamics not at a decent standard and does anyone use them or just disable them?
Reason I ask is I noticed my vocals sound rubbish though Alloy and always end up using NI compression for that.

Basically the question Im asking is - is Ozone's dynamics crap for mastering?
I use its compressor's multi-band goodness (only when needed to tame peaks, not pull it down by default) and its limiter in mastering. Love them.
Old 16th October 2015
  #94
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
The truth is that people simply can't afford the real equipment, but they'll take any avenue to prove that a $100 dollar plugin sounds exactly the same as a $4000 input channel... and companies will present the same answer, because they need to make money.

The results are the important thing and their effect on the listener...true enough.

My advice is, don't fool yourself. Be honest with yourself. ie: I have it sounding ok...with these plugins...even though I know they aren't the same as the real equipment. Get real, a $100 plugin is not going to sound like an actual ($4000 per channel) Pye compressor...or Helios eq, or whatever. About the only plugouts I've found that are barely passable are eq's and delays....even then I find the more I add, the worse things get...and fwiw, when pro's say they use plugout's...what they actually mean, but don't say is "the only plugins I use are for things that DON'T have a major affect on the sound, or things that DON'T affect the sound that much, but present a feature that I can't accomplish with my rack of $50,000 vintage equipment. Otherwise, I'm using 90 percent hardware and 10 percent software(automation, de-essing, etc...utility plugins"

I'm pretty firmly of the (subjective) opinion, that it is simply impossible for software to mimic hardware, because software cannot act randomly....like normal electronic components do. They CAN'T sound the same...no matter how much make up you put on it and how much magic you type into it. Hardware contains all kinds of randomness that software simply doesn't. It's like those captcha box's. You input a random type given answer, that a computer can't do, to PROVE that you are a human.
I think there are also people on the other side of the argument... Cats with 50 grand worth of outboard who fight to the death before admitting that a 100$ plug in sounds pretty fantastic next to real gear.

I track through real outboard pres/comps... Even the virtual instruments go through iron here... To my ears there is a big difference sonically between doing it this way versus preamps on the interface and all plugs... If I track through the api or tone beast I may put an api plugin eq on that track...

There are a million ways to skin this rabbit... But, consider the advancements in plugins since this zombie thread was initially begun.

I find it astonishing what I can achieve with well recorded program through iron, steel, tubes, etc into the box... Plugins to taste. Particularly when I think about how much time I spent as a youngster cleaning heads, splicing tape, noise floor, etc. All experiences I'm glad to have had.
Old 16th October 2015
  #95
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Mania's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
The truth is that people simply can't afford the real equipment, but they'll take any avenue to prove that a $100 dollar plugin sounds exactly the same as a $4000 input channel... and companies will present the same answer, because they need to make money.

The results are the important thing and their effect on the listener...true enough.

My advice is, don't fool yourself. Be honest with yourself. ie: I have it sounding ok...with these plugins...even though I know they aren't the same as the real equipment. Get real, a $100 plugin is not going to sound like an actual ($4000 per channel) Pye compressor...or Helios eq, or whatever. About the only plugouts I've found that are barely passable are eq's and delays....even then I find the more I add, the worse things get...and fwiw, when pro's say they use plugout's...what they actually mean, but don't say is "the only plugins I use are for things that DON'T have a major affect on the sound, or things that DON'T affect the sound that much, but present a feature that I can't accomplish with my rack of $50,000 vintage equipment. Otherwise, I'm using 90 percent hardware and 10 percent software(automation, de-essing, etc...utility plugins"

I'm pretty firmly of the (subjective) opinion, that it is simply impossible for software to mimic hardware, because software cannot act randomly....like normal electronic components do. They CAN'T sound the same...no matter how much make up you put on it and how much magic you type into it. Hardware contains all kinds of randomness that software simply doesn't. It's like those captcha box's. You input a random type given answer, that a computer can't do, to PROVE that you are a human.
You give the impression that you have no idea how software works
Old 16th October 2015
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanu View Post
I use its compressor's multi-band goodness (only when needed to tame peaks, not pull it down by default) and its limiter in mastering. Love them.
Interesting. Ive just been using the presets. Maybe thats where Ive been going wrong. My mixes always end up sounding crap - too much of one thing, too much of another. I play em in an ipod and either there's a hole in the middle or its all bass.
I might start using it just as a limiter and stereo imager.
Old 16th October 2015
  #97
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Fanu's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinh222 View Post
Interesting. Ive just been using the presets. Maybe thats where Ive been going wrong. My mixes always end up sounding crap - too much of one thing, too much of another. I play em in an ipod and either there's a hole in the middle or its all bass.
I might start using it just as a limiter and stereo imager.
Always start with a clean slate – that's how you actually learn how the modules work. I've never used a preset in Ozone in my life; reasons being I wanted to learn it and also every single mastering job I do for my clients is a custom job – of course, as it should be – and Ozone only gets tweaked by me, as is needed.
Old 16th October 2015
  #98
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In the red corner we have hardware plugout guys shouting at the blue corner ITB guys that what they will never have is better than what they use. Not much scope for discussion really.

As an ITB guy making some money from syncs/games etc, all I can contribute is that plugs get better every year. The zombie comments were valid in 2006 because plugs back then were not as good as they are 10 years on and everyone can hear that. By 2026...check page 10 of this thread. Will software outclass hardware? Will hardware be lame? Will we care?

Last edited by Shaolin; 16th October 2015 at 11:41 AM..
Old 16th October 2015
  #99
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comfortablynick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
I'm pretty firmly of the (subjective) opinion, that it is simply impossible for software to mimic hardware, because software cannot act randomly....like normal electronic components do. They CAN'T sound the same...no matter how much make up you put on it and how much magic you type into it. Hardware contains all kinds of randomness that software simply doesn't.
It seems logical that it's "impossible for software to mimic hardware," especially if we own many thousands of dollars of outboard equipment. I think the differences between HW and SW are vastly overstated most times, though. In my own experience, many of these differences disappear when comparisons are done blindly. I have experienced this myself so many times that I never underestimate the power of biases. There are complex psychological factors going on behind what we think we "hear." I've seen it play out many times on this board when comparisons are done between HW and SW.

Some of the best effects available are exclusively ITB these days. Look at reverbs: aside from the HW Bricasti, I think all of the best and innovative reverbs being made today are plugins. And we can bring older algorithms such as the EMT 250, Lexicon 480L and 224 ITB. Even though those were digital effects processors just running on separate (very low-powered) computers, some still claim they can never be replicated ITB. Oh well…their loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
It's like those captcha box's. You input a random type given answer, that a computer can't do, to PROVE that you are a human.
That's not how this works…that's not how any of this works.

Nick
Old 16th October 2015
  #100
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinh222 View Post
Right, so thats the mastering one. I was wondering about that.
I generally just run the master through Ozone and use its compressor/limiter. Are Ozone dynamics not at a decent standard and does anyone use them or just disable them?
Reason I ask is I noticed my vocals sound rubbish though Alloy and always end up using NI compression for that.

Basically the question Im asking is - is Ozone's dynamics crap for mastering?
Nothing its crap for mastering if u ask me depends what do u expect from it and what u need do u need dynamics at all on the master bus?Most mastering guys including me don't use during mastering compression for dynamics but just for the tone and the colour.In rare occasions dynamics are used for glue if the mix its not bussed and balanced properly.In mastering u have to avoid to over process anything from the original mix because compression its very easy to overdone. In my case i use sometimes compression for creative purposes on electronic music to get the mix pumping and louder but thats not with every master for sure.
Why should ur vocals sound rubbish with Alloy i used it back in the days exactly with vocals and i had great results with it.Maybe u didn't recorded the vocal well .. Anyway if u want spot on compression for vocals use Optical or Tube based compression or if the singer its too dynamic 1176.
The cheapest MJUC its the best i heard yet in the box it does sounds like a hw or what i will expect hw to sound like very smooth indeed!
Old 16th October 2015
  #101
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I wish there was a pop-up warning when you are reading a 10-year old thread.
Old 16th October 2015
  #102
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
I wish there was a pop-up warning when you are reading a 10-year old thread.
Plus 1 zillion!

I don't how many of these I get sucked into only to read someone point out the thread started in 1996
Old 16th October 2015
  #103
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
Plus 1 zillion!

I don't how many of these I get sucked into only to read someone point out the thread started in 1996
Just cause its old doesn't mean you cant learn something new
Old 16th October 2015
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mania View Post
You give the impression that you have no idea how software works
Software sucks, it always has since the beginnings of the bsod. I was computer tech for seven years. I spent my time cleaning up software, which was regularly screwing up. I used to compile packages all day long for inclusion onto FreeBSD (Unix)systems, which sometimes did not work properly. I did it for a living. You can't tell me software is reliable, because I know it ain't.

Might be better now, but not good enough in a professional environment where a lot of money is being spent.
Old 16th October 2015
  #105
Lives for gear
You might have worked on the b***inger of software. Doesn't mean that all software sucks. Cubase for example, is pretty awesome and stable as anything. Some of my plugs have never crashed - they're coded well. And plenty of hardware needs servicing and maintenance.

And as for a professional environment, it's all software based. Banks use Unix don't they? And networks around the world run on routers that are nothign more than specialised computers running software. And airlines, well don't get me started. Nothing is perfect, but buggy badly coded software is horrible, granted. Can't compare that to good code.
Old 17th October 2015
  #106
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Hardware that ran on software designed around a specific purpose, tended to be more reliable. The software didn't have to compete for processor time with a hundred other processes. The OS alone is an adversary to reliability. Most of these reliable software driven devices are UNIX based, which has a reputation for a cleaner, more efficient subsystem and kernel. Stable releases.

But even then, things could be shaky.

My sta level compressor turns on every f***ing time, no questions asked....literally. I hate devices that ask me questions. I don't ever have the thought..."what happens if this unit goes down?". It doesn't...enter...my mind.

Physical, electronic components...and the thing sounds fantastic. I feel....more of a connection when using it. I feel the heat, I hear the sound...I know I don't have to worry about it.

Try that with a plugin. Plugins are...a letdown...they're cheap and too easy to have access to. They're totally expendable and worth nothing the following year. You feel it when you use them. There's no connection.
Old 17th October 2015
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Hardware that ran on software designed around a specific purpose, tended to be more reliable. The software didn't have to compete for processor time with a hundred other processes. The OS alone is an adversary to reliability. Most of these reliable software driven devices are UNIX based, which has a reputation for a cleaner, more efficient subsystem and kernel. Stable releases.

But even then, things could be shaky.

My sta level compressor turns on every f***ing time, no questions asked....literally. I hate devices that ask me questions. I don't ever have the thought..."what happens if this unit goes down?". It doesn't...enter...my mind.

Physical, electronic components...and the thing sounds fantastic. I feel....more of a connection when using it. I feel the heat, I hear the sound...I know I don't have to worry about it.

Try that with a plugin. Plugins are...a letdown...they're cheap and too easy to have access to. They're totally expendable and worth nothing the following year. You feel it when you use them. There's no connection.
What kind of drugs you use?

Haven´t read so many gibberish in a while...
Old 17th October 2015
  #108
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Mix2Master's Avatar
@ desol all the ITB mixers absolutely killing it with tremendous mixes must be secretly using hardware then?

Because plugin are useless, terrible and unreliable. Obviously.
Old 17th October 2015
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxMulderFBI View Post
What kind of drugs you use?

Haven´t read so many gibberish in a while...

Not my fault you can't feel anything? I'm an artist...artists are creative. Something that non-artists have a hard time understanding. You can't understand creative emotion through technology. I've experienced both sides of the coin...you obviously, haven't. Creative emotion, for those struggling with the definition, is what makes good music....not ****ing math.

Stick to math. You're out of your waters.

Your ignorance is enlightened by the fact, that the only way you can respond, is through insult....which is often a last resort for people that simply can't or refuse to understand...usually because of fear.
Old 17th October 2015
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mix2Master View Post
@ desol all the ITB mixers absolutely killing it with tremendous mixes must be secretly using hardware then?

Because plugin are useless, terrible and unreliable. Obviously.
I never said they were useless, but more or less, they are fairly terrible and yes, quite unreliable. It's a ****ing computer for christ's sake. Have you not seen a computer ever screw up at an inopportune time? If not, then you must be NEW to the computer world.

Show me tremendous mixes, and there will be analog hardware all over the tracking stage, and more than less...the mixing stage.

All of MY favorite mixers...rely on proven equipment for the important parts of the process.

Not plugins.
Old 17th October 2015
  #111
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Mix2Master's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
I never said they were useless, but more or less, they are fairly terrible and yes, quite unreliable. It's a ****ing computer for christ's sake. Have you not seen a computer ever screw up at an inopportune time? If not, then you must be NEW to the computer world.

Show me tremendous mixes, and there will be analog hardware all over the tracking stage, and more than less...the mixing stage.

All of MY favorite mixers...rely on proven equipment for the important parts of the process.

Not plugins.
Was an IT manager for many years before audio.

I can list however mixes you like.

Of course everyone tracks through hardware, how else would you record audio?

Who are your favourite mixers?
Old 17th October 2015
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mix2Master View Post
Was an IT manager for many years before audio.

I can list however mixes you like.

Of course everyone tracks through hardware, how else would you record audio?

Who are your favourite mixers?

There are too many to list, and fwiw, I should correct what I said. When I said 'mixers' I meant...engineers/producers. I don't really care that much about the 'mixing' stage per say. I care much more about the tracking stage.

Some of my favorite engineers/producers would be:

John Leckie
Roy Thomas Baker
Andy Johns
Jeff Lynne
Jason Corsaro
Keith Olsen

I'm not a mixing 'groupie'. With digital mixing...you can sit all ****ing day at your console and fool around with software and plugins...till it sounds reasonably radio friendly. That's not my world.

I value the tracking stage(mostly), because that's where 'reality' happens. Performance, rooms, microphones, hardware. That's where the music and the foundation for the rest, are layed.

Computer software has perpetuated the notion that anyone can be a 'mixing' or 'mastering' engineer. It's watered it down, for lack of better words...why?
Because it's cheap, and technology startup's need your money.
Old 17th October 2015
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Not my fault you can't feel anything? I'm an artist...artists are creative. Something that non-artists have a hard time understanding. You can't understand creative emotion through technology. I've experienced both sides of the coin...you obviously, haven't. Creative emotion, for those struggling with the definition, is what makes good music....not ****ing math.

Stick to math. You're out of your waters.

Your ignorance is enlightened by the fact, that the only way you can respond, is through insult....which is often a last resort for people that simply can't or refuse to understand...usually because of fear.
This gets philosophical...who says that you cannot understand creative emotion through technology...you? Isnt analog compressor or eq technology? :S Or are they completely metaphysical entities? You try to sound smart...but you failed, hard. Music is MATH, deal with it. Its just the matter how are you going to interpret and creat it...digitally or through analog circuits...c minor will always sound as c minor. Wont be going deeper into this discussion. Enjoy creating extra creative analog music....
Old 17th October 2015
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxMulderFBI View Post
This gets philosophical...who says that you cannot understand creative emotion through technology...you? Isnt analog compressor or eq technology? :S Or are they completely metaphysical entities? You try to sound smart...but you failed, hard. Music is MATH, deal with it. Its just the matter how are you going to interpret and creat it...digitally or through analog circuits...c minor will always sound as c minor. Wont be going deeper into this discussion. Enjoy creating extra creative analog music....
Have fun making love to your new eastern European robo doll.

Old 17th October 2015
  #115
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Fanu's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Have fun making love to your new eastern European robo doll.

Whether you make love to a robot or a woman, you're probably looking for a somewhat similar end result...
So it is with music tools as it is with women: you'll be able achieve a similar satisfactory outcome – it's just the vibe during the act that differs slightly whether you're grinding analog or digital
Old 17th October 2015
  #116
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
Physical, electronic components...and the thing sounds fantastic. I feel....more of a connection when using it. I feel the heat, I hear the sound...I know I don't have to worry about it.

Try that with a plugin. Plugins are...a letdown...they're cheap and too easy to have access to. They're totally expendable and worth nothing the following year. You feel it when you use them. There's no connection.
You are literally admitting right there that you are highly biased by factors OTHER than just the sound.

You belong to the kind of people who can't be helped. You just want to believe that software plugins can never sound as good as hardware. Maybe to justify to yourself that it wasn't a stupid decision to waste a lot of money on hardware. Number one hits have been mixed entirely in the box. Some of the most famous musicians in the world work with nothing but plugins.

My question is: Why are people arguing with this man? He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. His understanding of analog and digital signal processing is fundamentally wrong.

There is no argument to be won here when people fundamentally misunderstand how stuff works. Nobody can win this discussion, it's pointless.

This dude is the first who can't tell the difference between a hardware 1176 and a plugin 1176 in a blind test. 100% guaranteed.

Bury this thread. The people who want to believe that hardware will always sound better than software are the same kind of people who believe that god created the earth. There is no arguing with them.

This is just an ideological thing.
Old 17th October 2015
  #117
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by desol View Post
There are too many to list, and fwiw, I should correct what I said. When I said 'mixers' I meant...engineers/producers. I don't really care that much about the 'mixing' stage per say. I care much more about the tracking stage.

Some of my favorite engineers/producers would be:

John Leckie
Roy Thomas Baker
Andy Johns
Jeff Lynne
Jason Corsaro
Keith Olsen

I'm not a mixing 'groupie'. With digital mixing...you can sit all ****ing day at your console and fool around with software and plugins...till it sounds reasonably radio friendly. That's not my world.

I value the tracking stage(mostly), because that's where 'reality' happens. Performance, rooms, microphones, hardware. That's where the music and the foundation for the rest, are layed.

Computer software has perpetuated the notion that anyone can be a 'mixing' or 'mastering' engineer. It's watered it down, for lack of better words...why?
Because it's cheap, and technology startup's need your money.
While I'm sympathetic to your point of view, I don't understand the point of differentiating a piece of hardware from a piece of software. Both were created by engineers, in some cases by engineers with no musical talent at all.

Technologists have always been partners with musicians. Leo Fender was an engineer, not a musician and no one doubts his contribution to music. His passion was in creating technology that allowed creative people new forms of expression. Music has been technology-driven since Caveman Ugh picked up a stick and pounded out a beat, only to have his smarter brother wrap it in a skin to make a new sound.

Consider the technology that even a kid with a tweed amp and a strat in his bedroom leverages just to make a little music: from fossil fuel production to transportation systems to power plants to power distribution systems, metallurgy, textiles, chemical adhesives.

Creative people routinely take all of this industrial output, all of this technology and all of this infrastructure and wrestle with it, study it and reshape it to produce beautiful sounds. Software is no different, and the musician/technologist partnership will continue to drive its development and its transformation of music in ways we can't imagine. All imho of course.
Old 17th October 2015
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexe View Post
You are literally admitting right there that you are highly biased by factors OTHER than just the sound.

This is just an ideological thing.
Indeed. There are many reasons why I like real life instead of virtual reality. It's a fact that software ****s up more than physical components....therefore, in the heat of a tracking experience, where you stand to get screwed over(which I've witnessed and experienced many times) (both you and the artist) and thrown off the vibe, which is the major part of the recording...I wouldn't want to compromise losing that. Reliability in the heat of the moment, is PARAMOUNT. You don't have to worry about that when your mixing on your digital mixer, with your NEVE plugins in the safety of your virtual control...room.

I've pissed around with software emulations for YEARS. I've mixed with plugins for a long time...and to tell you the truth, I really don't care about mixing that much anymore. This argument is coming from the tracking viewpoint...not the 'mixing' viewpoint. I hate the experience, of twiddling around with a mouse and/or an 8 fader plastic controller. Software emulations...(note the word...emulation) quite often do sound worse...especially when you start stressing the machine out. Things start declining rather rapidly.
Old 17th October 2015
  #119
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Mix2Master's Avatar
So @ desol you're tracking to tape right?

Althought curious, what happens if your STA Level compressor craps out?
Old 17th October 2015
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mix2Master View Post
So @ desol you're tracking to tape right?

Althought curious, what happens if your STA Level compressor craps out?
It won't. Which is the point...and it will sound great doing it.

I'm not tracking to anything at the moment, but if I were to track to a digital recorder, it would be that, with it's specific purpose. It would not be a computer.
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