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switching from Logic 5.5 to Nuendo - specific plug-ins question
Old 27th April 2006
  #1
Gear Nut
 

switching from Logic 5.5 to Nuendo - specific plug-ins question

I'm finally thinking of switching over to Nuendo after happily using Logic 5.5 on a PC for ages. I'm so used to the plugs in Logic, I wonder if the supplied plugs in Nuendo are up to the equivalents in Logic? If not can you recommend good replacements eg waves etc.

Things I think I'm going to miss:

Logic Compressor - I use the soft peak function on drums a lot
Tape delay - I like the filtering on the delay
Graphical EQ - It doesn't use much juice, I use it all the time. I like being able to see my changes in the display
Platinum Verb - not too hungry and OK if used in moderation on a bus
Overdrive
Autofilter
Tremlo
Exciter

ES1 - used occasionally for bass and leads - is there a VST version around?
ES2 - I like the progressive rhythmic moving sounds you can make
EVP 88 - amazing keyboard sounds - Lounge Lizard / Something else
EXS 24 - Halion / NI / something else
EVOC20

I'd also like a Match EQ plug in, do any exist apart from the one built into Logic?

Thanks for your advice!
Old 27th April 2006
  #2
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joris de man's Avatar
Hi lul

I switched from Logic from the Mac to Nuendo on the PC and though I miss a few things, I really haven't looked back much. Let me see if I can help here:
Logic has some great plugins but unfortunately the idea behind Nuendo seems to be different. The inbuilt plugins are useful but usually not amazing and you're better of getting external ones; they will do the job better although sometimes at a cost.
You might also want to consider whether you really need Nuendo or that you can use Cubase. The featureset is largely similar with Nuendo being geared more towards post; for example, a talkback section, more than 5.1 if you need, more import/export functions etc.. Some of Nuendo's additional features mean that it is not entirely as effecient as Cubase.


-Logic Compressor: the built in compressors are okay, but nothing spectacular. I suppose you could get a good sound using one with Magneto after it to get some soft limiting/tape effect going on.
Additionally I would look at the URS compressors which apparently are superb.
From what I remember the built in Nuendo compressor is as good as the Logic one.
-Tape Delay; get Biionic delay; it is freeware and was designed to sound the same as Logic's tape delay. UI is not pretty but very functional and it does the job. To my ears sounds it sounds very similar.
-Graphical EQ: get Equim or Firium from Elemtal Audio. They sound better. The display is nice but something you can do with Inspector, which is free from Elemental Audio as well.
For a stellar EQ get Tritone's Hydratone. It is one of the best soft EQ's you can get, and has a drive dial that adds light distortion/saturation which sounds insane.
-Platinum Verb: Get R66 from Sonic flavours, or use the built in Roomwerks reverb which is really pretty decent. Sounds way better then platinum to my ears.
-Overdrive: Nuendo has a multiband distortion which is pretty decent. I guess it depends on what you use it.
-Autofilter: tough one, as this is one I really miss in Nuendo. Nuendo has a filter plugin which kinda works, but doesn't have as much character or parameters as autofilter. Look at PSP audioware's Nitro.
-Tremolo; Nuendo has a Rotary plugin with which you can emulate this.
-Exciter: No, not built in. I would look at PSP's offerings or get the BBE maximiser.

-ES1; I liked this one too Nuendo has a bass synth plugin which is pretty similar. Look at Fabfilter one, which will probably serve you better.
-ES2: Nope; check out Discodsp's offerings.
-EVP88: nope, lounge lizard is a good (and probably better) alternative
-EXS24: get kontakt2. Honestly, it's probably the best VSTI sampler out there.
-Evoc20: there are a lot of vocoder plugins out there that do a better job.

Firium allows EQ matching, there are others as well (my brain is fuzzy this morning

Don't let the fact that plugins like Logic's are not included put you off. Logic has always wanted to be a jack of all trades, and admitedly it has done that job well in the plugin department. Nuendo doesn't have that much in terms of built in fx. It might be somewhat of a bummer, but Nuendo has a lot to offer that Logic doesn't even come close to.
Editing wise it's possibly even better and faster than PT, and I've always found the UI to be much clearer and easier.
Workspaces are the equivelent to Logic's screensets, it's got snapping that actually works and I think once you get the hang of the workflow you won't want to go back.
I occasionally miss some of the plugins from Logic but that is it. Editing wise and midi sequencing wise there is practically nothing I miss from Logic.

Hope that helps,

Cheers,

Joris
Old 27th April 2006
  #3
Gear Nut
 

that's a great response, thanks for taking the time. I now have a big shopping list!
Old 27th April 2006
  #4
Gear Addict
 
madhermit's Avatar
 

Hey there

I did the same thing about 8 months ago. I have been a faithful Logic user on a PC since version 3. Fought the good fight not going to Mac, and I also worked at a studio that just bought 2 full PC Logic rigs 6 months before PC support was dumped. I used to design and build bullet proof audio PC's so i was happy paying less $ and fiddling with windows all the time.

We got to a point where we were tired of the crashes and BS from running Logic/PC so we talked, researched and decided to try out Nuendo. Bought it, set everything up, (we uses RME cards at the time), even tracked a 17 track off the floor session through it and thought it was pretty cool.

We went to do a mix. Here's where it got ugly. We use the CPU basically as a deck and to add some plugins, but come out of the CPU with 32 channels into an analog board for it's eq, and all our external processing. We fiddled around with a mix for an hour and then my partner turned to me and asked... "Is it just me or is this total ****?"

I didn't really want to answer that because it was more or less my idea we go to Nuendo. I agreed with him that it was horrible to mix in. We bit the bullet, relegated our PC's to Wavelab only duty, sold nuendo, bought 2 Dual 2.7 G5 macs, MOTU i/o and we have been as happy as clams since. We are completely converted Mac heads now and are so happy to be back with Logic. I sold my P4 2.4 home made beast for $800 and picked up a dual G4 867 for $800. They seem to be almost exactly the same power when it comes to running tracks in Logic.

I understand that some people love Nuendo, some people love Logic. I used to sell the stuff and have a belief that it is like a left brain/right brain thing. Some people think a certain way and therefore dig Logic, some people another way and dig Nuendo. My point is, if you love Logic, you may find Nuendo a PITA. Same goes with Mac/PC. I don't give a crap what people use, but in our experience, it is a different world and like going from driving an old K Car to a Mercedes.

Bottom line opinion from me. Buy a Mac and stay with Logic.
Old 27th April 2006
  #5
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

Bottom line is if you want to buy a mercedes than buy a pc with nuendo. Don't want to hurt, but if it's sounds ****, it's not the problem of nuendo.
Regards Tamas Dragon
Old 27th April 2006
  #6
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madhermit's Avatar
 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Had nothing to do with the sound. It was the workflow.
Old 27th April 2006
  #7
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

Ah yes. Ones happiness is other's sadness of course. At least we have choices.
Regards Tamas Dragon
Old 27th April 2006
  #8
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joris de man's Avatar
Madhermit; i see your point.
You have a solution that works for you so that's great. This post is not to disagree with your decision; I'm not platform/software religous and think that the only way to work is my way

I'm surrprised though that the workflow put you off, esp. the Mixer.
Personally I found the environment window/mixer in Logic always a total PITA!
Flexible yes, and nice that you can move faders around to where you want them.
But to set it all up, and to mix in it? Well, it wasn't for me that's for sure!
And had been with logic since 2.0! (at the time there were 2 versions..plain old Logic and Logic audio, which had the audio portion of the program tacked on)
My decision to change was the following:
-I also ran a Protools set and couldn't keep upgrading that to go with the OS changes.
-Don't like OS X (looks beautiful and slick and is fine for wordprocessing but waaay to sluggish for my taste for audio work, even on a G5)
-I hated the way logic dealt with audio (regions, bouncing, x-fading, editing)
-I didn't like the direction the program was going into; adding lots of new features while still neglecting basic bugs, problems and UI issues.
-I found the way it handled multi channel VSTi's very annoying and cumbersome
-too many small bugs that made my life difficult...
-couldn't keep upgrading the mac...
Some of you might disagree, but I went from an 7100 to an 8100 to a Graphite G4 to an MDD G4 to a Dual G4 to a...aw..feck it. And that was even before OS X came into play!!! Now in the last two years we've gone from various G5 permutations to Intel which means that soon a lot of stuff will change again.

I was with logic until the last version (6.4.1) for OS9; the first time I tried it on OS X was a big shock. Gone were the snappy screenredraws. Suddenly my performance was around 15% less than it was under OS9.
That's where I drew the line.

2 years ago I changed to Nuendo on a dual opteron. I haven't had to upgrade since. Even if I do, at the moment I only have to slot in a new processor (I can keep my system the same) and I'm already 64 bit ready.

What I love about Nuendo is the way it handles VSTi's, the folder tracks, realtime fades, editing, the control room section and overview of the IO.
I'l be the first to admit that it is seriously lacking in the plugin department. Then again, all I'd want in that would be the logic plugins anyway..there is so much out there now in the VST world that I hardly miss anything.
In terms of editing, mixing and midi stuff it has changed the way I work completely. I used to have to go to Protools to do audio editing, these days I do it all in Nuendo.

Anyway, like I said, you have a solution that works, and so do I. Perhaps in a few years I'll take a look at Logic again and see where it has gone. For me, it would need a serious rewrite to be able to do that, but you never know what the future holds.

Cheers,

Joe
Old 27th April 2006
  #9
Gear Addict
 
madhermit's Avatar
 

Hey Joe

This is the exact thing I am talking about. Some people dig the Nuendo flow and you sound like one of them. I say go with Nuendo then and do your thing. I think I misread your initial post thinking you were debating the whole switch thing.

As for the plugins, it's pretty hard to get similar ones. I have always liked Logic's plugins and supplement them with a UAD card which I really like. We use mostly external, but when we want to automate a funky delay or something, we use plugins. I have noticed there are LOTS of pretty good free plugins, especially for PC/VST. There is a website called KVR that you can go through and check out most of what is out there.

http://www.kvraudio.com/

Good luck in your search.
Old 28th April 2006
  #10
Gear Nut
 

thanks for the responses : )

don't let this turn into a mac / pc / nuendo / logic war thread - there have been enough of those!

different horses, different courses!

I'm really just after specific suggestions for replacing my fav logic plugs - thanks Joris - any more suggestions, just keep them coming...

fyi my main reason for switching is that I'm going to be doing more music to picture work and also my p4 2.4 finds it hard to cope with the amount of plugs I'm using these days.

EG a couple of instances of IR1 plus Stylus can grind it almost to a halt! I'm hoping I can use the freeze track functions in Nuendo to squeeze a couple more years use out of it. Then I guess go dual core, not really into the extra cost of Mac and replacing all my software.

thanks for your comments
Old 28th April 2006
  #11
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joris de man's Avatar
With regards to IR: Altiverb is about to come out for Winxp (initially as a stereo version but later as a 5.1 as well).
This blows IR out of the water in terms of sound; and dare I say it, any IR verb at the moment.

I'm betatesting it at the moment and it has already become practically indespensable.
The main thing about it are the impulses: there are loads and the quality is fantastic. Altiverb supplies both stereo to stereo impulses and mono to stereo.

Eventhough Waves IR claimes to be stereo, it seems that most of the impulses have been recorded in a center to stereo configuration, i.e when you make the signal very wet it gets pulled to the center. Not so with AV.

The other thing is that AV has speaker placement, which allows you to place a signal in the existing space further back or to the side. This is basically an additional set of IR's of different seating positions (mainly used for orchestral stuff but also useful for post or other creative uses) that gets applied before the main IR.

Anyhoo, sounds like I'm doing a salespitch and that wasn't the intention. Safe to say it sounds fantastic and is a bit easier on the CPU then IR it seems.

Anyway, didn't want to turn this thread into a platform war. I have nothing against macs and the fact that Logic didn't work for me anymore doesn't mean it's a crap package
I think you'll really like nuendo once you get your head around its workflow. It isn't that different and when I started out with it I figured that I would miss Logic's customisation (i.e breaking up the transport bar into bits and being able to move them around freely).
But after a while I got very used to Nuendo and found the layout very logical (no pun intended) and put the transport on top of the screen so that it only overlayed the title bar of my windows. Apart from that I felt less time was needed to configure workspaces, mixers etc.

Anyway, enough babbling from me. If you need any more help for your transition to Nuendo and are wondering how to do specific logic things you might be missing, give us a shout

Cheers,

Joe
Old 28th April 2006
  #12
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seaneldon's Avatar
 

after using PTHD and Sequoia for the last 3 years, i just switched over to nuendo without a choice. the studio i'm working at now runs nuendo. i got a tutorial dvd to show me exactly where everything is and some cool tricks and i feel like i learned 90% of the software in 4 hours. big help as far as the transition goes from digidesign and magix. i enjoy nuendo. i prefer to mix out of the box 9 times out of 10 but i can get a fantastic result with nuendo by itself.
Old 28th April 2006
  #13
Gear Nut
 

thanks Joris, I may well take you up on that : )

How do you find the micro editing of audio in the arrange page? I do a lot of this in Logic - ctrl and click to extend audio, ctrl, alt click for more precise adjustment - is this pretty similar?

Have you used Stylus with Nuendo?
Old 28th April 2006
  #14
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 

After very carefully exploring Logic, Nuendo and Cubase I got myself Cubase. Concerning Nuendo and Cubase it is what Joe says. In most cases Cubase is the way to go since it has it almost all too. Nuendo, besides the few post extra's, has indeed a much better reputation in the market if that is of a concern for you. Concerning Logic I must say that I think that concerning the general midi and audio handling Nuendo or Cubase is the choice. I find it more intuitive and quicker to work with then Logic, especially for the audio editing part. Concerning the plugs. Well there's the problem in my opinion. Nuendo and Cubase are just sh*tty on plugs. And on plugs you have to sorts, the one that are fx and the ones that are instruments. For the fx I'm sure that a UA and/or Powercore card will kill the Logic plugs. For the instruments it is for sure possible to find better replacements too, tho' I'm not aware of one provider and product to do that as it is in the case of UA or TC on the fx part. Also, the latest version of Logic has much more nice plugs then you mention in your first post here at the top, think of Sculpture, Utlrabeat and GuitarAmp. All very nice indeed (I personally really like GuitarAmp). Nuendo/Cubase simply have nothing on this, yet (I hope the next release with Yamaha in the back will change this significantly...). Since you don't want to go to the Mac route, go straight for Cubase (or Nuendo if you really need the extra features), tho you will have to invest extra on a samples (Halion or Kontakt), fx plugs (UA or TC) and instruments (lots of different ones). Remember one thing, this in the end will cost you quite a lot! Logic on a Mac is relatively cheap, one mahcine, one solution and (almost) ready you are...

Regards,

Roger
Old 28th April 2006
  #15
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

One thing I'm disagree with. Nuendo's plugs are not ****ty, they are very good indeed. The built in eq is a very good all around one, the compressor is good, very good delays, decent multiband comp, the modulation plugs are good, the roomworks reverb is very fine. So where is the problem with those?
Regards Tamas Dragon
Old 28th April 2006
  #16
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joris de man's Avatar
Lubaloo,

I think you will be mightely impressed by the audio editing features in both Cubase and Nuendo (they are for the most part the same).

You can edit to either a musical grid or a time grid, and switch between the two on the fly. In musical grid mode you can select any type of quantise value for snapping, which makes it easy to adjust ranges to quantise values.
Snap ofcourse can be switched on and off on the fly, and with a keycommand.
Next to that Nuendo has various nudge and trimming commands, which also operate based on quantise values or time.

Audio regions have handles so no ctrl click is needed to extend or trim regions. You can override the snap however by pressing control if snap is on.
Editing is ofcourse sample accurate and with its quick zooming (which is with a slider instead of stepped) you can quickly zoom down to sample level if you need.

Another very cool feature is that you can slide audio in place; meaning that if your region is a middle section of a larger piece of audio, you can slide the sample forwards or backwards within the region itself without moving the actual region.
I don't know if that makes sense?

Last but not least Nuendo has various modes for moving audio around:
-based on a grid (regions snap to grid values)
-relative grid (will stick to grid but if regions are not exactly on a grid line, it will move them taking into account it's original offset)
-shufflle/magnetic combinations: regions will snap to other regions or shuffle them dependent on where you drag them (for example shuffling a region inbetween another).
A really cool feature is offline processing. You can select a region and any vst effect can be applied to it offline. If you apply a few in succession, you can store that chain as seperate process.
Also, each processed region has *its own* edit history, meaning that you can undo all the processing you did on it back to the original sample.

You can also quickly bounce a region to another track. The more I think of it, the more features there are that I never had in Logic

I have stylus rmx and it works great with Nuendo. Drag and drop of midifiles straight onto a track, it couldn't be easier.

Tamas, Nuendo's plugins are pretty ok, but nothing amazing. I personally think the vst dynamics, magneto and roomworks are decent.
But many of the others are easily outdone by even some of the free vst equivelents. Bottom line is; would you use them if you had others available?

That is what is so good about Logic's plugins (and something I do sorely miss in Nuendo); most of them you'll use regardless of others you might have. They are for a large part top quality and worth using over other plugins.

Lubaloo; as demonstrated I can go on for ages about the good things in Nuendo. Bottom line, as shown by madhermit, it totally depends on how you like the workflow.
I used Logic in combination with Protools hardware, and used Protools for soundediting.
Nuendo is for me a package in which I can do both. Sure, there are things I miss; Protools still has some of the best plugins out there (regardless of the UAD stuff or TC), and Logic has some pretty cool ones too.
But workflow wise I miss little to nothing from either package.

At the end of the day only you can make a decision; just make sure it is an informed one (as you are doing by posing these questions). People like me are obviously excited about Nuendo and will be happy to answer any questions.

Cheers,

Joe
Old 28th April 2006
  #17
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon
One thing I'm disagree with. Nuendo's plugs are not ****ty, they are very good indeed. The built in eq is a very good all around one, the compressor is good, very good delays, decent multiband comp, the modulation plugs are good, the roomworks reverb is very fine. So where is the problem with those?
Regards Tamas Dragon
OK...

Roger
Old 28th April 2006
  #18
Gear Nut
 

you love it ! enthusiasm is infectious : )

can you recommend a good budget controller that has a shuffle wheel I could use for the scrub function on the transport controls? I'm getting a cme uf88, but don't think it has a wheel for scrolling....
Old 28th April 2006
  #19
Registered User
 

I'm going to dump Logic 5.51 PC after I've finished my current album project.

I know that Logic Pro on Mac is not for me - as I just know owning a Mac will wind me up after watching what my Apple using pals put up with so ....

I have long envied Steinberg users - every product just fits with Steinberg stuff - the developers think VST first - so DFHS works perfectly you don't need a work arounds as you do in Logic - all VSTi's I own seem to work better in Steinberg as does my UAD-1's and my Powercore's all with full PDC and my RME Multiface works better in Steinberg software with ASIO (their std) the list just goes on and on - I've had enough on Logic island - I'm making a bid for the coast and pushing out on my little row boat in hope of a better future

SO ........

As I just do music only is there a AUDIO QUALITY difference between the Nuendo engine and the Cubase SX engine or are they identical as Steinberg would have me believe?

Trebor
Old 28th April 2006
  #20
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joris de man's Avatar
They are indentical in terms of audio quality.

I got Nuendo as I was also doing a lot of soundeffects work, and at the time Cubase didn't have all the same nudge features that Nuendo has (it does now), as well as som of the surround stuff.
If I had to buy again today I would probably go with Cubase; although I must say that for the most part I like Nuendo's GUI a bit better.
That's just a skin though and not worth paying the extra dough for.
I got mine at trade-in price so I got a pretty good deal.

Cheap controllers: I have a mackie control which works quite well. You could also look at the shuttlexpress.
If you just want a simple jog/scrub wheel an x-keys pad might be the way to go.
I've got 2, they rock for shortcuts. (www.x-keys.com)
X-keys in combination with the keycommands and macros in Nuendo make life very easy

Joe
Old 28th April 2006
  #21
Gear Nut
 

anyone tried one of these griffin things?
http://www.techstore-online.co.uk/IN...P?ref=28362033



also do you compose with keyboard straight infront and computer kb / mouse on top? does this get uncomfy with the reach for the mouse? as per the graphic on top of the cme uf8...

Old 1st May 2006
  #22
Gear Nut
 

bank holiday bump : )
Old 1st May 2006
  #23
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joris de man's Avatar
I've heard good things about the CME keyboards, but I wouldn't bother with that Griffin thing. It looks nice but that is about it.
I would seriously consider the x-keys or shuttle control.
The griffin is not much more then a glorified volume control.
Proper shuttle controls usually have some sort of stepping to them, however light. The griffin doesn't and imho wouldn't make for very good shuttling.

Yes, the audioengines are the same. In general, with the quality of processing these days, the audio engine is not something we have to worry about too much.
People were making good sounding records with 16 bit Protools in their time (and before) so if something sounds crap it's usually more down to engineering skill than anything else
To put it bluntly; I probably have better equipment now then trevor horn did 20 years ago and quality wise his productions still sound waaaay better than mine

Regards,

Joe
Old 3rd May 2006
  #24
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joris de man
People were making good sounding records with 16 bit Protools in their time (and before) so if something sounds crap it's usually more down to engineering skill than anything else
To put it bluntly; I probably have better equipment now then trevor horn did 20 years ago and quality wise his productions still sound waaaay better than mine

Regards,

Joe
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