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The Delay Compensation Mystery (All DAWs) DAW Software
Old 6th September 2011
  #1
Here for the gear
 

The Delay Compensation Mystery (All DAWs)

Hi, I'm gonna go straight to the point:

Delay Compensation:

I get how Pro Tools deals with the issue, it's pretty graphic having the number of samples the signal is delayed to compensate.
But that type of compensation is linear. What happens when you send a signal to a reverb and, as it tipically does, adds a ton of delay. How does Pro Tools deal with that compensation? I'm pretty sure that the send doesn't use another voice and compensates it before going to the reverb.

On the same subject, how does Logic, Nuendo and Reaper deal with the same issue?

The only way that I can think to compensate the delay produced by a parallel signal (i.e. parallel compression, reverb, delay, etc), is that a send has to work duplicating the signal internally. That way it can compensate freely. The problem is that that process would ultimately bring more delay. Why? Because the DAW would have to copy that signal after the inserts added, to process the it before being compensated.

So the question remains: Do DAWs compensate plugin delays on parallel signals? How?
Old 6th September 2011
  #2
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Nerine's Avatar
 

Honestly, I haven't the foggiest.
All I know is that all DAW's nowadays manage to do it.

That's good enough for me. It works. Great!
Old 6th September 2011
  #3
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zephonic's Avatar
To the best of my knowledge (which is admittedly sketchy) delay compensation is as simple as adding up the number of samples/ms and delaying the playback accordingly.
Old 6th September 2011
  #4
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Hello,

I can speak for the compensation engine in Nuendo, which tends to be more user friendly than in PT, at least to me.

Delay compensation is not terribly difficult despite Digi's making it sound a bit complicated and magical over the years. Any DAW knows what your routing is - it's not hard to know how much time each process takes, including plugin delays, and compensate each signal by the amount necessary to keep them all in time as you add bussing.

Speaking about Nuendo, it does delay compensation for your whole signal path - to busses, to auxes, to other busses, to child busses, to efx and group tracks, to whatever internal signal routing you may be doing including running through whatever plugins you may be using. If you add a "parallel processing" path as you were asking, Nuendo compensates all the other paths for that.
In addition, if you're going to an external processor of some kind, you can "ping" that path and Nuendo will put that in the compensation as well for all signal paths.

It's really not very hard, it just requires a bit of smart coding. The addition of compensation to all versions of PT 9 was a great thing, and makes it useable for us, but not all that difficult.

Hugh
Old 6th September 2011
  #5
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s34nsm411's Avatar
 

one thing I feel like they will never get right (or atleast I will be very freakin happy when they do...) is compensating for sends to multiple buses/master bus

example (in cubase): take a kick and output to 'bus A' with fx on it, now send (parallel) from the kick track to the master bus. It will be out of time with the kick that comes out of your 'bus A' and sound like phasey poop

no way to do the michael brauer ABCD type mixing system ITB without overcoming this
Old 6th September 2011
  #6
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valis's Avatar
To the best of my knowledge most apps will apply a negative delay to tracks containing prerecorded audio & VI's that respond to midi data (if the destination for the midi is a singular instrument) equal to whatever is inserted on the output path of the mixer track/object itself. Bussing & aux sends apply a positive delay to the overall mix buffer, meaning they delay output of the sequencer's processed audio equal to the sum of the highest delayed audio chain. Shorter delays in the mix bus seem to be simply buffered until they equal the 'zero point' time of the longest delay and then are mixed in...so that things remain phase accurate. I am most familiar with Live & Logic at this point, not having used Nuendo or Cubase in a year or so now (or PT in considerably longer).

When latency comp was first introduced it was rather easy to throw out of wack in most apps, and I preferred to do it manually. Back then audio was still a heck of a load on the later model G3/G4 macs and Pentium3 (tualatin/coppermine) and P4's on the Windows side, so allowing automatic compensation in apps also meant that you had less of an idea of where the load came from. These days I barely pay it any attention unless I'm doing live input monitoring (software monitoring) while recording something, either myself or a send to someone performing for the recording. I can still manually time align Scope & external gear if need be, but Logic's i/o enabler's ping functionality has made this much simpler too.
Old 6th September 2011
  #7
Gear Head
 

Why send the parallel to the master bus why not create a subgroup for drums and create a child group for parallel kicks and original kick then output it in to the drums subgroup also hit the phase button if you have any phase issues,or am I missing something am not a pro so excuse my ignorance

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Old 6th September 2011
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by s34nsm411 View Post
one thing I feel like they will never get right (or atleast I will be very freakin happy when they do...) is compensating for sends to multiple buses/master bus

example (in cubase): take a kick and output to 'bus A' with fx on it, now send (parallel) from the kick track to the master bus. It will be out of time with the kick that comes out of your 'bus A' and sound like phasey poop

no way to do the michael brauer ABCD type mixing system ITB without overcoming this
You can do that fine in PT9 (and from PT 6 I guess in TDM - think that was the first PT HD revision). Delay comp should automatically delay the direct send to the master bus so that it's in time with bus A.
Old 7th September 2011
  #9
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s34nsm411's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
You can do that fine in PT9 (and from PT 6 I guess in TDM - think that was the first PT HD revision). Delay comp should automatically delay the direct send to the master bus so that it's in time with bus A.
oh really? I dont use pt much but I will have to try this when I get a chance on my friend's rig
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